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Fastest Accelerating MUs in the UK

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hexagon789

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S stock on the metropolitan line are pretty quick off the mark given being a tube train
Surely as "Tube" stock you'd expect them to be fairly quick off the mark though, at least the newer stock? They are 1.3m/s/s max iirc the S-stock
 
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brad465

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Yeah, the /9s are much better than /0 or /1 BREL units

The metcam ones are def about 1.05 m/s, BRELs are inferior tho especially at high speed

To be honest I think 375s are inferior to 465/9s and 378s + 707s, and the like. Anyone got a figure for a 450/SWT retracioned 455? They both seem fairly quick
I suspect the superior 465/9 acceleration helps them keep to mainline timetables for services they run on that are also run by 375s, where the faster acceleration offsets the lower top speed. This must be particularly beneficial for the CHX-Tunbridge Wells services dominated by Networkers, and also on Chatham Mainline stoppers, especially between VIC and the Medway Towns, but even beyond them to Canterbury East and Dover Priory as well, especially under the Covid timetable, where pairs of Networkers are/have been used on the all stations' runs to DVP.
 

SolomonSouth

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I suspect the superior 465/9 acceleration helps them keep to mainline timetables for services they run on that are also run by 375s, where the faster acceleration offsets the lower top speed. This must be particularly beneficial for the CHX-Tunbridge Wells services dominated by Networkers, and also on Chatham Mainline stoppers, especially between VIC and the Medway Towns, but even beyond them to Canterbury East and Dover Priory as well, especially under the Covid timetable, where pairs of Networkers are/have been used on the all stations' runs to DVP.
465/2s are about as good as 465/9s as well

I can't get the full post editor to work but I'll put up a link for a video of a 777 on test, and it shoots out of the station, this plus the track record of stadler makes me think these will be up there certainly.

EDIT: here it is

Jeesus....
That might just be able to beat a 707 or 465/9 tbh
 
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py_megapixel

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That might just be able to beat a 707 or 465/9 tbh
I wouldn't hold your breath on them going quite that fast in service. In the first few months of the 331s, they were pulling away at almost (but not quite) that kind of pace. Nowadays drivers are seem not to use their full power, as apparently unsuspecting passengers who were used to what was comparatively the leisurely stroll of a 319 or 322 were being sent flying!
 

SolomonSouth

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I wouldn't hold your breath on them going quite that fast in service. In the first few months of the 331s, they were pulling away at almost (but not quite) that kind of pace. Nowadays drivers are seem not to use their full power, as apparently unsuspecting passengers who were used to what was comparatively the leisurely stroll of a 319 or 322 were being sent flying!
Oh right, but I don't even know where merseyrail is so couldn't really time one myself haha
The videos I linked showed the 465/9 doing 0-60 in just under 50 secs (since it was going 5mph at the start of the video) and the 378 doing 50 secs exactly. Note that the video for the 378 was taken in 2011 when they were 4 car and 5-car 378s nowadays are slower than 4-car on DC, as said in a previous thread.
 

40129

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I imagine Underground speeds are very line dependant, the Jubilee Line benefiting from more modern sections

We need some open, track to do a proper drag race :D
Witnessed the nearest thing the railway gets to a drag race at Milton Keynes Central recently. Cl-377 on the up slow vs a Cl-350 on the up fast. Both started at the same time. The 377 very much in the lead up to around 40 mph at which point the 350 stared catching up and had overtaken it by Denbigh Hall.

Incidentally, the cl-710s out of London Euston seem very fast starters when seen from the platform.
 

Halish Railway

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Witnessed the nearest thing the railway gets to a drag race at Milton Keynes Central recently. Cl-377 on the up slow vs a Cl-350 on the up fast. Both started at the same time. The 377 very much in the lead up to around 40 mph at which point the 350 stared catching up and had overtaken it by Denbigh Hall.

Incidentally, the cl-710s out of London Euston seem very fast starters when seen from the platform.
Not wishing to big my self up, I do have a video in which a 319 & 331/0 have a drag race from a standing start; the difference is let’s say, stark. This can be found at the start of the video.

 

AM9

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Not wishing to big my self up, I do have a video in which a 319 & 331/0 have a drag race from a standing start; the difference is let’s say, stark. This can be found at the start of the video.

No surprises there, a class 319 has 990kW of traction power which means just under 7kW per tonne, - I can't find any tracti9on power figures for the 331s but I suspect that their power to weight ratio is at least 10 kW per tonne so it would be a very poor performance if it couldn't get away faster than a 30+ year old MKIII EMU.
 

Mikey C

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No surprises there, a class 319 has 990kW of traction power which means just under 7kW per tonne, - I can't find any tracti9on power figures for the 331s but I suspect that their power to weight ratio is at least 10 kW per tonne so it would be a very poor performance if it couldn't get away faster than a 30+ year old MKIII EMU.
The Mk3 EMUs are also poor accelerators as they only have one powered carriage and 3 trailers
 

AM9

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The Mk3 EMUs are also poor accelerators as they only have one powered carriage and 3 trailers
When there are poor railhead conditions. But many of the TL drivers managed to cope well with normal dry conditions.
 

SolomonSouth

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The Mk3 EMUs are also poor accelerators as they only have one powered carriage and 3 trailers
Agree. 317 319 321 322 315 all take around 70 seconds to 60, 2 minutes 15 seconds to 75, and 317 319 321 322 take about 7 minutes to get to 100 so I'd want to know anyone's location who's been on a 317 319 321 or 322 that got to 100.

I am led to believe, due to eversholt, that the 320 (the 3-car 321) can reach 60 in about 50 seconds, and 90 in about 3 minutes which is better than the 317 319 etc. Fairly equal to a renatus 321. Graph here: https://eversholtrail.co.uk/fleet/class-320/

The 318 on eversholt is said to get 0-60 in just over 40 seconds but a max acceleration of 0.56 makes it only possible to get 0-60 in 48 secs. Either the max acceleeration figure is wrong, or it gets 0-60 slower than what the graph says - just over 40 seconds would be stupidly rapid for a train like that!
Top end wise they get 0-90 in about the same time as a 320, so about 3 minutes. Graph here: https://eversholtrail.co.uk/fleet/class-318/

Strange how the 3-car versions of the mk3 emus are faster than their 4-car counterparts, when for 375s/377s, its exactly the other way round, the 3 car versions are much slower. About 60-65 secs to 60 for a 4 car, whereas it looks to be 75-80 for a 3-car. Graphs here to compare:https://eversholtrail.co.uk/fleet/class-375/

Anyone able to ay why 3-car 375s/377s are slower than 4 cars whereas its the other way round for mk3 emus?
 

Halish Railway

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Anyone able to ay why 3-car 375s/377s are slower than 4 cars whereas its the other way round for mk3 emus?
On Mk3 EMUs there’s one motor coach regardless of how long they are, so a 4-car unit has an extra unpowered coach, thus a lower power-weight figure than their 3-car counterparts.

With Electrostars, the additional carriage that makes a 4-car unit is powered, thus making 3/4s (75%) of the carriages powered, rather than 2/3s (66%).
 

AM9

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Agree. 317 319 321 322 315 all take around 70 seconds to 60, 2 minutes 15 seconds to 75, and 317 319 321 322 take about 7 minutes to get to 100 so I'd want to know anyone's location who's been on a 317 319 321 or 322 that got to 100.

I am led to believe, due to eversholt, that the 320 (the 3-car 321) can reach 60 in about 50 seconds, and 90 in about 3 minutes which is better than the 317 319 etc. Fairly equal to a renatus 321. Graph here: https://eversholtrail.co.uk/fleet/class-320/

The 318 on eversholt is said to get 0-60 in just over 40 seconds but a max acceleration of 0.56 makes it only possible to get 0-60 in 48 secs. Either the max acceleeration figure is wrong, or it gets 0-60 slower than what the graph says - just over 40 seconds would be stupidly rapid for a train like that!
Top end wise they get 0-90 in about the same time as a 320, so about 3 minutes. Graph here: https://eversholtrail.co.uk/fleet/class-318/

Strange how the 3-car versions of the mk3 emus are faster than their 4-car counterparts, when for 375s/377s, its exactly the other way round, the 3 car versions are much slower. About 60-65 secs to 60 for a 4 car, whereas it looks to be 75-80 for a 3-car. Graphs here to compare:https://eversholtrail.co.uk/fleet/class-375/

Anyone able to ay why 3-car 375s/377s are slower than 4 cars whereas its the other way round for mk3 emus?
I've been on 319s many times on the MML down fasts. The long climb up to Elstree tunnel is something like 1: 200 and even when crush loaded, the speed would get into the '90s.

The 3-car 375s have a power to weight ratio of 7.51kW per tonne whereas the 4-car versions have 8.64. Similarly, the 377s have 6.01 & 6.91 respectively.
Their top speeds on level track would be similar though.

On Mk3 EMUs there’s one motor coach regardless of how long they are, so a 4-car unit has an extra unpowered coach, thus a lower power-weight figure than their 3-car counterparts.

With Electrostars, the additional carriage that makes a 4-car unit is powered, thus making 3/4s (75%) of the carriages powered, rather than 2/3s (66%).
Correct in principle but the different car types are not all the same weight, - see my answer above.
 

SolomonSouth

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On Mk3 EMUs there’s one motor coach regardless of how long they are, so a 4-car unit has an extra unpowered coach, thus a lower power-weight figure than their 3-car counterparts.

With Electrostars, the additional carriage that makes a 4-car unit is powered, thus making 3/4s (75%) of the carriages powered, rather than 2/3s (66%).
Thanks
 

hexagon789

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No surprises there, a class 319 has 990kW of traction power which means just under 7kW per tonne, - I can't find any tracti9on power figures for the 331s but I suspect that their power to weight ratio is at least 10 kW per tonne so it would be a very poor performance if it couldn't get away faster than a 30+ year old MKIII EMU.
I thought it was 1072kW for a 319/320/321/322 but 990kW for the older 317/318s? That would give a slightly higher ~7.5kW per tonne for the 319.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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I know the 375 was one of the fastest DC units - 70 secs to 60mph. Not sure on 70x units.
I don't have any data to substantiate this but my daily form of traction was 377's from Surrey for many years but we had one turn which was a single 377/6 and they were definitely faster than the 377/1-4 pulling away from Purley, Coulsdon Sth and Merstham. This in part is because they had 8 motored axles vice 6 on the 377/1-5 series but overall installed power to weight ratio isn't that different. What i believe happened initially was on DC the 377 and 375's were software controlled to mimic the current curve of CEP/BIG stock which limited maximum current/4car to c1500Amps which constrained acceleration rates compared to AC. They were still vastly superior in top speed to DC motor stock as they didn't suffer from the declining tractive effort that a DC motor does as it rotates faster. By the time the 377/6s were introduced vast amounts of investment had been made into reinforcing the traction system and perhaps the current limit had been increased. Subsequently we now have class 700's and they have a good acceleration rate compared to the class 450's so maybe a higher current limit is permitted. The 377/1-5's could be software remapped but for a higher current limit although there are still routes that haven't been reinforced so there is no point.
For comparison the class 373's and 92's were permitted to draw upto 6800 Amps on the classic boat train routes via Tonbridge and Maidstone East and the Networker routes to Dartford were also reinforced to permit 12 car Networkers in the early 1990's.
The class 777's installed power will make them the highest power to weight ratio DC units as to how much of that power the traction system will allow to be utilised will be interesting but the video above confirms its certainly metro speed.
 

hexagon789

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I don't have any data to substantiate this but my daily form of traction was 377's from Surrey for many years but we had one turn which was a single 377/6 and they were definitely faster than the 377/1-4 pulling away from Purley, Coulsdon Sth and Merstham. This in part is because they had 8 motored axles vice 6 on the 377/1-5 series but overall installed power to weight ratio isn't that different. What i believe happened initially was on DC the 377 and 375's were software controlled to mimic the current curve of CEP/BIG stock which limited maximum current/4car to c1500Amps which constrained acceleration rates compared to AC. They were still vastly superior in top speed to DC motor stock as they didn't suffer from the declining tractive effort that a DC motor does as it rotates faster. By the time the 377/6s were introduced vast amounts of investment had been made into reinforcing the traction system and perhaps the current limit had been increased. Subsequently we now have class 700's and they have a good acceleration rate compared to the class 450's so maybe a higher current limit is permitted. The 377/1-5's could be software remapped but for a higher current limit although there are still routes that haven't been reinforced so there is no point.
For comparison the class 373's and 92's were permitted to draw upto 6800 Amps on the classic boat train routes via Tonbridge and Maidstone East and the Networker routes to Dartford were also reinforced to permit 12 car Networkers in the early 1990's.
The class 777's installed power will make them the highest power to weight ratio DC units as to how much of that power the traction system will allow to be utilised will be interesting but the video above confirms its certainly metro speed.
There were also sections detailed in the Sectional Appendix where the Electrostars could only use Notch 2 power maximum. Again due to the current draw limitations.
 

AM9

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I thought it was 1072kW for a 319/320/321/322 but 990kW for the older 317/318s? That would give a slightly higher ~7.5kW per tonne for the 319.
Class 319s have 4 x 247.5 kW motors, which totals 990kW, (1327 HP). The 317s have 746kW (1000 HP), the 318s, 320s, 321s & 322s have 1072kW (1438 HP), - I suspect that given the 319s were one of the first UK EMU designs to use chopper electronics in the traction system, which may mean that the rated output from the series would DC motors varies by a few kW. The first 317s were introduced in the early '80s more as 90mph EMUs and have 186.5kW (250 HP) motors.
 

hexagon789

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Class 319s have 4 x 247.5 kW motors, which totals 990kW, (1327 HP). The 317s have 746kW (1000 HP), the 318s, 320s, 321s & 322s have 1072kW (1438 HP), - I suspect that given the 319s were one of the first UK EMU designs to use chopper electronics in the traction system, which may mean that the rated output from the series would DC motors varies by a few kW. The first 317s were introduced in the early '80s more as 90mph EMUs and have 186.5kW (250 HP) motors.
That's the trouble with so many sources giving different figures, but I assume these are from an official source so will be 'the' figures as it were
 

SolomonSouth

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I don't have any data to substantiate this but my daily form of traction was 377's from Surrey for many years but we had one turn which was a single 377/6 and they were definitely faster than the 377/1-4 pulling away from Purley, Coulsdon Sth and Merstham. This in part is because they had 8 motored axles vice 6 on the 377/1-5 series but overall installed power to weight ratio isn't that different. What i believe happened initially was on DC the 377 and 375's were software controlled to mimic the current curve of CEP/BIG stock which limited maximum current/4car to c1500Amps which constrained acceleration rates compared to AC. They were still vastly superior in top speed to DC motor stock as they didn't suffer from the declining tractive effort that a DC motor does as it rotates faster. By the time the 377/6s were introduced vast amounts of investment had been made into reinforcing the traction system and perhaps the current limit had been increased. Subsequently we now have class 700's and they have a good acceleration rate compared to the class 450's so maybe a higher current limit is permitted. The 377/1-5's could be software remapped but for a higher current limit although there are still routes that haven't been reinforced so there is no point.
For comparison the class 373's and 92's were permitted to draw upto 6800 Amps on the classic boat train routes via Tonbridge and Maidstone East and the Networker routes to Dartford were also reinforced to permit 12 car Networkers in the early 1990's.
The class 777's installed power will make them the highest power to weight ratio DC units as to how much of that power the traction system will allow to be utilised will be interesting but the video above confirms its certainly metro speed.
So 377/6s are faster than 377/1-5?
Also look at that video of a 465/9 I linked it is way faster than any 377
 

Railperf

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Agree. 317 319 321 322 315 all take around 70 seconds to 60, 2 minutes 15 seconds to 75, and 317 319 321 322 take about 7 minutes to get to 100 so I'd want to know anyone's location who's been on a 317 319 321 or 322 that got to 100.

I am led to believe, due to eversholt, that the 320 (the 3-car 321) can reach 60 in about 50 seconds, and 90 in about 3 minutes which is better than the 317 319 etc. Fairly equal to a renatus 321. Graph here: https://eversholtrail.co.uk/fleet/class-320/

The 318 on eversholt is said to get 0-60 in just over 40 seconds but a max acceleration of 0.56 makes it only possible to get 0-60 in 48 secs. Either the max acceleeration figure is wrong, or it gets 0-60 slower than what the graph says - just over 40 seconds would be stupidly rapid for a train like that!
Top end wise they get 0-90 in about the same time as a 320, so about 3 minutes. Graph here: https://eversholtrail.co.uk/fleet/class-318/

Strange how the 3-car versions of the mk3 emus are faster than their 4-car counterparts, when for 375s/377s, its exactly the other way round, the 3 car versions are much slower. About 60-65 secs to 60 for a 4 car, whereas it looks to be 75-80 for a 3-car. Graphs here to compare:https://eversholtrail.co.uk/fleet/class-375/

Anyone able to ay why 3-car 375s/377s are slower than 4 cars whereas its the other way round for mk3 emus?
Class 321's accelerating from Chelmsford Northbound normally achieve 100mph before Hatfield Peverel. Similarly from Witham Southbound - 100mph is achievable. Otherwise the close spacing of stops on the stopping service limits any opportunity to reach 100mph.

Also 321's running north of Ipswich could achieve 100mph between the major stops. I recorded 0-100mph from Stowmarket southbound in 254 secs - inspite of a neutral section. The gradients are slightly downhill.
 

SolomonSouth

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Class 321's accelerating from Chelmsford Northbound normally achieve 100mph before Hatfield Peverel. Similarly from Witham Southbound - 100mph is achievable. Otherwise the close spacing of stops on the stopping service limits any opportunity to reach 100mph.

Also 321's running north of Ipswich could achieve 100mph between the major stops. I recorded 0-100mph from Stowmarket southbound in 254 secs - inspite of a neutral section. The gradients are slightly downhill.
254 secs? Not too bad for a 321 lmfao I swear most of them aren't that fast, at least according to eversholt
 

Trainiac66

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755/4 on diesel is in a league of its own. 195's are somewhere in the pack that includes 180, 185 22x
755/3 on electric is again way faster than anything else. 755/4 only slightly slower.
Would absolutely agree. 755/4 on diesel are incredible, even having drinks slide off the table. 755/3 are obviously slower with half the engines and therefore half the power on diesel, but with the same kW output on electric they must be the fastest. Also, would a 185 not be faster than a 220/221 seeing as they use the same engines and weigh less (so long as the 185 isn't running with its middle engine disabled)?
 

Railperf

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254 secs? Not too bad for a 321 lmfao I swear most of them aren't that fast, at least according to eversholt
Yeah, normally around 5 mins on level track to 100mph. The Renatus units with retraction AC drive are a little bit quicker, but nowhere near in the league of Class 360's.

Would absolutely agree. 755/4 on diesel are incredible, even having drinks slide off the table. 755/3 are obviously slower with half the engines and therefore half the power on diesel, but with the same kW output on electric they must be the fastest. Also, would a 185 not be faster than a 220/221 seeing as they use the same engines and weigh less (so long as the 185 isn't running with its middle engine disabled)?
No, i think the electric transmission on 22x class makes them faster (provided all engines running). And the 22x are mostly derated to 700bhp/engine compared to 750bhp for the 185's.

My best recorded figures for both classes puts the 22x slightly ahead of 185's and 180's.
 

Trainiac66

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Yeah, normally around 5 mins on level track to 100mph. The Renatus units with retraction AC drive are a little bit quicker, but nowhere near in the league of Class 360's.


No, i think the electric transmission on 22x class makes them faster (provided all engines running). And the 22x are mostly derated to 700bhp/engine compared to 750bhp for the 185's.

My best recorded figures for both classes puts the 22x slightly ahead of 185's and 180's.
Ah, of course. I always forget the 185s are not DEMUs. Interesting that the 22xs are still faster with slightly derated engines.
 

Railperf

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Ah, of course. I always forget the 185s are not DEMUs. Interesting that the 22xs are still faster with slightly derated engines.
Yeah 180's are not DEMU's either - utilising a hydraulic transmission - which is prone to playing up!
 

SolomonSouth

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Yeah, normally around 5 mins on level track to 100mph. The Renatus units with retraction AC drive are a little bit quicker, but nowhere near in the league of Class 360's.
Yes indeed the 360s are absolutely mental, about the same speed as a 345 (1m/s vs 0.98 m/s) from standing or maybe thats an exaggeration lool
BTW the fastest DC unit appears to be a 465/9 which is around 50 seconds to 60, according to a video here:
Wouldn't that put a 465/9 at about the same time to 60 as its AC counterpart? (the 365)
 

Railperf

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Yes indeed the 360s are absolutely mental, about the same speed as a 345 (1m/s vs 0.98 m/s) from standing or maybe thats an exaggeration lool
BTW the fastest DC unit appears to be a 465/9 which is around 50 seconds to 60, according to a video here:
Wouldn't that put a 465/9 at about the same time to 60 as its AC counterpart? (the 365)
I am reliably told the 465/9 video was shot departing Teynham - so a downhill start - not sure of the gradients...but downhill nonetheless. So it isn't a reliable figure. The videographer claims he may have started the video slightly late too.

Yes indeed the 360s are absolutely mental, about the same speed as a 345 (1m/s vs 0.98 m/s) from standing or maybe thats an exaggeration lool
BTW the fastest DC unit appears to be a 465/9 which is around 50 seconds to 60, according to a video here:
Wouldn't that put a 465/9 at about the same time to 60 as its AC counterpart? (the 365)
The acceleration figures quoted in m/s/s are only achievable over a short speed range - usually around 0 to 30mph. The acceleration rate slowly falls away as speed rises due to increased air resistance and due to the constant power curve of the motors falling away.

Yes indeed the 360s are absolutely mental, about the same speed as a 345 (1m/s vs 0.98 m/s) from standing or maybe thats an exaggeration lool
BTW the fastest DC unit appears to be a 465/9 which is around 50 seconds to 60, according to a video here:
Wouldn't that put a 465/9 at about the same time to 60 as its AC counterpart? (the 365)
The acceleration figures quoted in m/s/s are only achievable over a short speed range - usually around 0 to 30mph. The acceleration rate slowly falls away as speed rises due to increased air resistance and due to the constant power curve of the motors falling away.
 
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SolomonSouth

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I am reliably told the 465/9 video was shot departing Teynham - so a downhill start - not sure of the gradients...but downhill nonetheless. So it isn't a reliable figure. The videographer claims he may have started the video slightly late too.


The acceleration figures quoted in m/s/s are only achievable over a short speed range - usually around 0 to 30mph. The acceleration rate slowly falls away as speed rises due to increased air resistance and due to the constant power curve of the motors falling away.


The acceleration figures quoted in m/s/s are only achievable over a short speed range - usually around 0 to 30mph. The acceleration rate slowly falls away as speed rises due to increased air resistance and due to the constant power curve of the motors falling away.
The 465/9 actually reached 60 at 47 seconds in the video but I added on a couple to account for him starting at 5mph. The downhill start I don’t think is massive, and he told me only the start is downhill.
Either way, from Greenhithe going towards Dartford I think I’ve been on a few that got 0-50 in 37 secs or so, and I think that’s uphill slightly so difference isn’t massive
 

Railperf

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The 465/9 actually reached 60 at 47 seconds in the video but I added on a couple to account for him starting at 5mph. The downhill start I don’t think is massive, and he told me only the start is downhill.
Either way, from Greenhithe going towards Dartford I think I’ve been on a few that got 0-50 in 37 secs or so, and I think that’s uphill slightly so difference isn’t massive
I'm told 0-60mph is usually 70 secs on level track for a 465/9.
 
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