Fewer carriages for Cornwall?

[DenmarkRail]

Hello all,

Recently I had an exchange on Twitter with GWR Help, which they stated they could not confirm if the current 7/8 car HSTs would be replaced by 9 car 800s, and 2x 5 car 800s, stating only, they will place the 9 car / 2x 5 car trains on the most busy routes.

I was very disappointed, as if they don't class Cornwall as a 'busy' route, then Cornwall could see a loss of 2-3 carriages on the intercity services between Paddington and Penzance.

Anyone want to share their thoughts?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Not direct compensation in terms of wider connectivity, but isn't the Cornish Main Line due to go half-hourly with once the signalling is modernised in ~2019? That will aid the intermediate flows in the county and to / from Plymouth.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Not direct compensation in terms of wider connectivity, but isn't the Cornish Main Line due to go half-hourly with once the signalling is modernised in ~2019? That will aid the intermediate flows in the county and to / from Plymouth.

Does the signalling make a difference? I'm sure that they can increase frequency without new signals, except maybe in St Erth?

 

[route:oxford]

Hello all,

Recently I had an exchange on Twitter with GWR Help, which they stated they could not confirm if the current 7/8 car HSTs would be replaced by 9 car 800s, and 2x 5 car 800s, stating only, they will place the 9 car / 2x 5 car trains on the most busy routes.

I was very disappointed, as if they don't class Cornwall as a 'busy' route, then Cornwall could see a loss of 2-3 carriages on the intercity services between Paddington and Penzance.

Anyone want to share their thoughts?

A 26m coach will never be less than a 23m coach.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Does the signalling make a difference? I'm sure that they can increase frequency without new signals, except maybe in St Erth?

Reading back through where I originally read it, I did misinterpret it a bit. The first phase, between Truro and St Erth, includes 12 new signals and seven upgraded level crossings, in time for December 2018 which IIRC (not in the source) is when the half-hourly is proposed. Transfer of everything to the Thames Valley SC at Didcot is due by 2020.

 

[Master29]

GWR are being very coy on this subject at the moment. I've asked on GWR`s Facebook page about how they`ll deploy the stock with a pointless reply of "yes, they`ll be using the new stock in Devon and Cornwall. I wanted to know if the named trains like the Cornish Riviera or Duchy will use the 9 car sets. I can understand their reasoning with 5 car units in some cases as the trains are half empty throughout Cornwall. Maybe detaching a 5+5 unit at Plymouth will be an option. We`ll have to wait and see I suppose.

 

[XDM]

A 26m coach will never be less than a 23m coach.

It will be if it is even thinner & the floor square footage is therefore actually smaller.

 

[JN114]

It will be if it is even thinner & the floor square footage is therefore actually smaller.

It would have to be 41cm narrower to be the same area for increased length.

 

[47802]

Hello all,

Recently I had an exchange on Twitter with GWR Help, which they stated they could not confirm if the current 7/8 car HSTs would be replaced by 9 car 800s, and 2x 5 car 800s, stating only, they will place the 9 car / 2x 5 car trains on the most busy routes.

I was very disappointed, as if they don't class Cornwall as a 'busy' route, then Cornwall could see a loss of 2-3 carriages on the intercity services between Paddington and Penzance.

Anyone want to share their thoughts?

Isn't the plan to have an generally hourly IEP 5 car service, combined with an hourly local service originally 2 x 158 but now 4 car HST sets so that any reduction in capacity should be mitigated by the more frequent service giving 9 carriages per hour.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Isn't the plan to have an generally hourly IEP 5 car service, combined with an hourly local service originally 2 x 158 but now 4 car HST sets so that any reduction in capacity should be mitigated by the more frequent service giving 9 carriages per hour.

So the IEPs would not stop at local stations, like Hayle, or Par, but the 158s would? Effectively ruining the intercity services at these stations?

I was on a HST Pad - St Erth last week, and it was very busy! Standing room only, until at leat Truro!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I know for a fact that the Cornish timetable hasn't yet been finalised, so anything anyone says is just speculation. It also explains the 'coy' response from GWR - they don't know either. There is certainly a plan for 2tph west of Plymouth and I would be surprised if a 5-car 802 was ever diagrammed to a Paddington-Cornwall service, although splitting 5+5 at Plymouth is a possibility on the quietest services.

 

[Parallel]

So the IEPs would not stop at local stations, like Hayle, or Par, but the 158s would? Effectively ruining the intercity services at these stations?

I was on a HST Pad - St Erth last week, and it was very busy! Standing room only, until at leat Truro!

I can't imagine the expresses not stopping at Par, at least connecting services with the Newquay branch. A lot of people on weekend breaks to/from Newquay change there and may be put off having to also change at somewhere like Plymouth. I think line gets a lot of longer distance travel with through tickets, as the local buses to Newquay in Cornwall are far more frequent than the train service. In addition, it's also a staff depot.

 

[47802]

I know for a fact that the Cornish timetable hasn't yet been finalised, so anything anyone says is just speculation. It also explains the 'coy' response from GWR - they don't know either. There is certainly a plan for 2tph west of Plymouth and I would be surprised if a 5-car 802 was ever diagrammed to a Paddington-Cornwall service, although splitting 5+5 at Plymouth is a possibility on the quietest services.

I would expect 5 cars to be the norm beyond Plymouth especially with the improved frequency maybe a few peak services may be 9 or 10 car, 5 cars are clearly much more suited to the shorter platforms at some Cornish stations, I would imagine its the whole point of going for a majority off 5+5 trains.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Some interesting responses... Personally hope that carriages are not lost, as over 15 years, I have seen the passenger numbers on the HSTs increase, and I have been on services where it has been standing all the way from Reading to Penzance!

It is a shame, but I guess I don't run the railways... Yet

 

[bramling]

I would expect 5 cars to be the norm beyond Plymouth especially with the improved frequency maybe a few peak services may be 9 or 10 car, 5 cars are clearly much more suited to the shorter platforms at some Cornish stations, I would imagine its the whole point of going for a majority off 5+5 trains.

This is the worry. A 5-car train on a quiet service is fine, however many Cornwall services are *not* quiet, especially during the summer months. Loadings can also be quite variable from one day or week to another. IMO it's a very legitimate concern that 5-car trains will appear at times when that length is not enough.

 

[DenmarkRail]

This is the worry. A 5-car train on a quiet service is fine, however many Cornwall services are *not* quiet, especially during the summer months. Loadings can also be quite variable from one day or week to another. IMO it's a very legitimate concern that 5-car trains will appear at times when that length is not enough.

The reason I posted this here for this exact reason, because I think that people are raving about the new trains, but really, there will be less coaches!

 

[47802]

The reason I posted this here for this exact reason, because I think that people are raving about the new trains, but really, there will be less coaches!

Well maybe the busiest services will be 9 or 10 car, but with 1 x 5 car IEP and 1 local 4 Car HST per hour between Plymouth and Penzance that should offer around 600 Standard Class seats, which I believe is more than is currently offered by a Low Density GWR HST.

 

[co-tr-paul]

We ( staff ) have been verbally informed that as many on here know, there will be 2 trains per hour PZ to PLY, 1 of HSTGTi and the other 802. The 802 will normally be a 9 car Pad to PLY split to 5 car PLY to PZ. During summertime peak services ( as yet undecided - my phrase ) they will be 9 car. I will add that 9 car 802 will not fit in Long Rock sidings. Overall, more seats, more trains, more comfort if you pick the right one !
Make of that what you will !!

 

[pdeaves]

Transfer of everything to the Thames Valley SC at Didcot is due by 2020.

TVSC transfer is highly unlikely to happen in the short to medium term. Policy is going lukewarm on the idea as the risks (and signaller desk space required) is too great.

 

[pdeaves]

Maybe detaching a 5+5 unit at Plymouth will be an option.

I understand that is the plan. And what co-tr-paul says.

 

[Feathers44]

Hello all,

Recently I had an exchange on Twitter with GWR Help, which they stated they could not confirm if the current 7/8 car HSTs would be replaced by 9 car 800s, and 2x 5 car 800s, stating only, they will place the 9 car / 2x 5 car trains on the most busy routes.

I was very disappointed, as if they don't class Cornwall as a 'busy' route, then Cornwall could see a loss of 2-3 carriages on the intercity services between Paddington and Penzance.

Anyone want to share their thoughts?

I think it's worth waiting to see what actually happens rather than getting disappointed based only on a lack of information. If it's too early to know the plans then it's also too early to be disappointed by them.

 

[Master29]

We ( staff ) have been verbally informed that as many on here know, there will be 2 trains per hour PZ to PLY, 1 of HSTGTi and the other 802. The 802 will normally be a 9 car Pad to PLY split to 5 car PLY to PZ. During summertime peak services ( as yet undecided - my phrase ) they will be 9 car. I will add that 9 car 802 will not fit in Long Rock sidings. Overall, more seats, more trains, more comfort if you pick the right one !
Make of that what you will !!

That`s the most enlightening response yet. Thanks.

 

[The Ham]

There are currently 464 Mark 3 coaches at GWR for use with their HST's.

In comparison there will be 419 central coaches for the 80x fleets. In addition the will be a further 186 end coaches.

Even if we assume that each end coach has half the capacity of a Mark 3 coach that would give GWR a total of 519 coaches, or a 22% increase in total coach numbers, but then each coach has a larger capacity.

Based on full length train equivalent (i.e. 5+5 or 9 coach trains Vs 2+8 HST's) there are 58 HST rakes of Mark 3s Vs 64 full length trains, which is a 10% increase. However, each 80x full length train has about 18% more seats than existing.

That means that even allowing for a more frequent service between London and Bristol (and going to a truly hourly Plymouth service) there are likely to be enough units to run most if not all services as full length trains if there is demand. Especially as journey times will also be faster meaning that fewer sets would be needed to run the existing services.

Even if a 5 coach unit did turn up then it is worth remembering that they can carry about 60% of the passengers that a HST can. Yes, if done on the "wrong" service that's not going to work well, but there are likely to be services where beyond Plymouth (or even Exeter) that would work well (even allowing for flow variations). However a 5 coach 80x turning up as a unit has failed is still a lot more capacity than no HST as a unit has failed!

I wouldn't be surprised if there were more services that spilt on route. Maybe a London Penzance/Paignton service, more direct services to Newquay or even direct services to Falmouth. Although that could lead to some services being shorter than at present it could then mean that there was scope for a more frequent service (i.e. by splitting a service to Paignton and a service to Penzance to serve the other it would mean that both had 2 services rather than 1 each).

By running splitting services you could encourage people to travel at a different time to when they do at present and so spread the loadings over the two services. For instance it could be that someone going somewhere for 12:00 had to get there for 10:45 as the next train doesn't get them there on time (or is very tight and they would be late if it were more than a few minutes late). Whilst with the splitting services they travel later because they get there for, say, 11:30.

That's not to say that there may not be people that are going to be worse off than at present, however I don't think that, even for those people, it's going to be half as bad as some people fear.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I doubt the fear would exist at all if the mistakes many fear happening here hadnt happened already with the voyagers.

If the the full lenth 800/802 woant fit in sidings at Long Rock what will happen? Fueling at the depot then shunt back to PNZ for cleaning and bedding down in the platforms?

 

[455driver]

We ( staff ) have been verbally informed that as many on here know, there will be 2 trains per hour PZ to PLY, 1 of HSTGTi and the other 802. The 802 will normally be a 9 car Pad to PLY split to 5 car PLY to PZ. During summertime peak services ( as yet undecided - my phrase ) they will be 9 car. I will add that 9 car 802 will not fit in Long Rock sidings. Overall, more seats, more trains, more comfort if you pick the right one !
Make of that what you will !!

I will make of that being (almost) completely wrong.

1/ Please explain how you split a 9 car IET for 5 forward into Kernow please?
And more importantly how it gets back to Plymouth to attach to the other coaches including the other coach with the cab end!
The 9s are just that, 9s, you can have any length you like as long as it is 5, 9 or 10 (5+5).
.
2/ 9 cars wont fit in long rock, what do you think all the building work is in aid of?

You havent answered any of my other questions I have asked you in the past so I am not expecting you to answer these either!

Signed a GWR train driver.

 

[The Ham]

I doubt the fear would exist at all if the mistakes many fear happening here hadnt happened already with the voyagers.

If the the full lenth 800/802 woant fit in sidings at Long Rock what will happen? Fueling at the depot then shunt back to PNZ for cleaning and bedding down in the platforms?

There's a few big differences between the 80x's and the 22x's, first there are no 4 coach versions.

Second there are going to be more full length equivalent trains than the previous units.

Third, the full length trains will have more seats than the existing units.

Forth, any increase in frequency is over and above what there is at present.

As an example rather than it being something like 13 trains over the day it will be something like 15. Now currently that means that over the day there's about 7,000 seats. Over 15 services to result in the same number of seats you only need 7 of them to be running full length, if just 10 run as full length services and 5 as 5 coach sets then there would be an increase in capacity over the day of 10%.

If most, say 12 of the existing 13 services ran as full length trains and the remainder ran as 5 coach trains then there would be 17% more seats.

A lot of the lessons of the 22x's have been learnt, as basically the IEP specification says "we don't want these things that were bad in the Voyagers".

You also have to great in mind that GWR are, if you exclude the NR grant, whilst at the time of the purchase of the 22x fleets XC wasn't. As such there will be less pressure on GWR to cut costs, so they'll be allowed more units.

 

[Western Lord]

We ( staff ) have been verbally informed that as many on here know, there will be 2 trains per hour PZ to PLY, 1 of HSTGTi and the other 802. The 802 will normally be a 9 car Pad to PLY split to 5 car PLY to PZ. During summertime peak services ( as yet undecided - my phrase ) they will be 9 car. I will add that 9 car 802 will not fit in Long Rock sidings. Overall, more seats, more trains, more comfort if you pick the right one !
Make of that what you will !!

How do you split a nine car 802 down to five?!!! A nine car may not fit at Long Rock but two fives will (on different tracks). Presumably the norm will be that Plymouth trains will be formed of two five car units, both of which may continue into Cornwall on the busiest services. Mixing up fives and nines will get them into a right two and eight (as my grandmother used to say).

 

[jimm]

This is the worry. A 5-car train on a quiet service is fine, however many Cornwall services are *not* quiet, especially during the summer months. Loadings can also be quite variable from one day or week to another. IMO it's a very legitimate concern that 5-car trains will appear at times when that length is not enough.

And do you not think that GWR, being the incumbent operator, is well aware of the times of the day and of the year when the trains are busiest? And will act accordingly. Never mind all the added capacity that will be provided by the extra services operating along the main line though Devon and Cornwall once the new timetable is in place.

Some of the IET services in Cornwall, including those that offer Pullman restaurant cars east of Plymouth, will likely be nine-car 802s year-round. Other services will be five-car sets through Cornwall, with another set attached or detached at Plymouth to give a 'big' train between there and Paddington.

I seem to recall GWR has given a clear commitment that nine-car or 2x5 formations will operate on all services between Paddington and Plymouth.

 

[DarloRich]

GWR are being very coy on this subject at the moment. I've asked on GWR's Facebook page about how they'll deploy the stock with a pointless reply of "yes, they'll be using the new stock in Devon and Cornwall. I wanted to know if the named trains like the Cornish Riviera or Duchy will use the 9 car sets. I can understand their reasoning with 5 car units in some cases as the trains are half empty throughout Cornwall. Maybe detaching a 5+5 unit at Plymouth will be an option. We'll have to wait and see I suppose.

they probably don't know yet.............

 

[co-tr-paul]

9/10 either way they will have to be split to fit in the SIDINGS at Long Rock and most of the building work here is for 57s ex OC. The 802s will only be daily serviced and fuelled,sluessed and cleaned. Nothing more as that is Hitatchi work elsewhere.
We have already been informed of the number of trains of each type we shall see overnight and the longer SETs are not planned to be part of the nightly work.
I fully expect one to turn up though at some point.... !

The original question was will there be fewer carriages for Cornwall and the answer is more seats and more trains post Dec 2018.