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Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland - Timetables?

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DarloRich

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I have never booked in advance for a defined train on the big railway.
Bully for you. Many of us in the real world have no choice but to book specific trains in order to travel at all. my ticket tomorrow from Kings Cross to Leeds is £100+ for an open ticket or £39.something for a fixed train. I cant afford the former very often!

What you fail to realise is that many people want to make decisions on the day - weather being a big factor. The end of last October I booked a trip from Caernarfon to Porthmadog at the end of the season about 10 days in advance to make sure I could get in the Pullman as they were still spacing people out. Day of trip arrives blowing a gale and driving rain. Took over 2 hrs to get to Caernarfon. Arrived early shortly after parking phone goes train cancelled due to flooding. Now in normal circumstances I just would not have ventured out in that sort of weather. Yes Okay I could have just not gone as the trip it didn't cost me anything - but I had booked and paid for a refreshment hamper thus there was some incentive to go. I ended up picking up the contents and driving home.
You are describing a holiday in Britain!

As for decision on the day: just go on line and book first thing. I have done it several times. It REALLY isn't hard or an issue and, most importantly, I have never once failed to travel on a line in those circumstances.

However, I suspect the real problem here is more personality driven.
I can't understand why you are so defensive of this manner of operation. I suspect you may have connections with either FWHR or another railway that still operates a Covid inspired timetable.
I have no connections with any preserved railway and ask you withdraw that comment. I simply live in the real world and try to understand why a change is made AND try to see some of the challenges the operator may have in delivering thier service AND the benefits the change may bring. I also appreciate that what a rail enthusiast might want and what "normal" people might want are two different things.

Personally I would focus on the later. It is clear you would not.

Stop knocking those who just want a normal day out experience just as it used to be and there is no reason why it can't be so as other railways are 100% normal again.
No one is stopping you having a normal day out EXCEPT you! You are stopping a day out through sheer cussedness.

What I don't understand is why you cant see any other angle but your own and cant grasp that your needs/desires may not be in accordance with the vast majority of travellers. it is utterly bizarre and more than a little immature.
 
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paul1609

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I am afraid John doesnt understand the difference of scale between the operation of the FR/WHR and Llangollen / Talyllyn. Im afraid he is in for a very long wait for normal running.
 

John Luxton

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What I don't understand is why you cant see any other angle but your own and cant grasp that your needs/desires may not be in accordance with the vast majority of travellers. it is utterly bizarre and more than a little immature.
I take back my suggestions that you have connections but I could state that your opinion was "is utterly bizarre and more than a little immature" what is wrong with wanting normality?

I have had a number of face to face conversations with other people who regularly go to the FWHR and they also share the same views as I do. Therefore, I do not think it is just me who do does not like how things are operating. I think there are a good few people out there.
 

DarloRich

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I take back my suggestions that you have connections
thanks.
I could state that your opinion was "is utterly bizarre and more than a little immature" what is wrong with wanting normality?

This may well be normality now though. You may have to accept that what you want can no longer be delivered because of the economic damage COVID has done. In my view the arrangements suggested will work for most potential customers as they do not impact on what they want from a journey on a preserved railway. I understand those requirements might be the polar opposite to the requirements of an old school enthusiast. I further understand that it is for the business to decide which group offers them the best chance of financial success and to arrange thier services accordingly. To me, that is what the WHFR have done.

if they are wrong you can smugly sit back and say "I told you so" but please don't complain if the railway disappears.

I have had a number of face to face conversations with other people who regularly go to the FWHR and they also share the same views as I do. Therefore, I do not think it is just me who do does not like how things are operating. I think there are a good few people out there.
I am not sure hearsay is admissible as evidence!
 

robert thomas

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I take back my suggestions that you have connections but I could state that your opinion was "is utterly bizarre and more than a little immature" what is wrong with wanting normality?

I have had a number of face to face conversations with other people who regularly go to the FWHR and they also share the same views as I do. Therefore, I do not think it is just me who do does not like how things are operating. I think there are a good few people out there.
I agree. I normally take a 4or 5 day holiday in North Wales with my wife staying a few nights in Portmeirion but did not go this year because of the current policy on the FR/WHR
 

DarloRich

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I agree. I normally take a 4or 5 day holiday in North Wales with my wife staying a few nights in Portmeirion but did not go this year because of the current policy on the FR/WHR
This is madness! You didn't go on holiday because you didn't like the pre booking rules for a steam train. Really? it is such a lovely area.
 

DarloRich

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It is hardly madness if the railways are the main reason for the visit
but there are about 4000 narrow gauge railways in the area - that is one of the reasons why we go there for a break in the van. Heck, i am using that as an excuse to go back for the next 5 or 6 years!
 
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John Luxton

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thanks.


This may well be normality now though. You may have to accept that what you want can no longer be delivered because of the economic damage COVID has done. In my view the arrangements suggested will work for most potential customers as they do not impact on what they want from a journey on a preserved railway. I understand those requirements might be the polar opposite to the requirements of an old school enthusiast. I further understand that it is for the business to decide which group offers them the best chance of financial success and to arrange thier services accordingly. To me, that is what the WHFR have done.

if they are wrong you can smugly sit back and say "I told you so" but please don't complain if the railway disappears.


I am not sure hearsay is admissible as evidence!
I am not oblivious to the problems caused by Covid I can see the benefits of allowing people to pre-book. However, there needs to be a bit of a compromise. It is clear that the short Porthmadog - Tanybwlch shuttles are popular with tourists who want a shorter trip and also they bring in income from sales in the Tanybwlch buffet - probably more than what was generated by on train buffet sales.

The ideal compromise would be a morning round trip to Blaenau Ffestiniog and a late afternoon one - both of which connected with Conwy Valley Line trains. This actually does seem to operate but is no promoted well nor really advertised as a link service any more between Conwy Valley and Cambrian Lines. In between these two trains run as many prebooked Tanybwlch shuttles as one can. If there isn't enough passengers to fill a shuttle they could be put on the Blaenau trains alight at Tanybwlch on the way up rejoin on the way down. That way a normal service operates AND the prebooked market is catered for.

Welsh Highland operations might need to be reappraised. The whole point of the WHR as it was sold was to relieve traffic from Snowdonia's roads. How much of that objective it really fills is questionable.

Perhaps the WHR should operate as it did in the 1930s with through passengers changing at Beddgelert?

Thus one could operate the line as two separate lines, with perhaps the section from Porthmadog to Beddgelert offering a more frequent service in the peak summer. This is basically what is happening now with the prebook services which turn back at Beddgelert.

Basically all I want to see is normal timetables published and not these tick box experience tables which keep getting posted to social media.

I am all for adaption and a degree of compromise to sustain the railways in the difficult economic climate BUT I do want to see the railway operating as a railway.

As for other people's comments being hearsay - that could be said about anything.

It is hardly madness if the railways are the main reason for the visit
Tend to agree, though I do like Portmeirion almost as much as the railways!

However, having been to Portmeirion only at the end of July for WHR100 Gala Part 1 I pulled the plug on my October trip and decided to support Llangollen Railway instead.

Not just for the railway but also to support the small family owned hotel I stay at, or call into for food and drink when in that area.

The hotel has not been able to get back to normal post Covid as they have staffing issues and are only offering accommodation Thursdays to Sundays.

There was a bit more motivation for me making my changes than just the railway.
 
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Llanigraham

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Three points:

Portmeirion, where we were on Sunday, encourage pre-boooking and time slots. That seems to have been conveniently ignored by some here.

We had a drink and a meal in Spooners, and asked if we could get on one of the trains out of Port, and there would have been no problem with us doing so, therefore pre-booking is NOT a requirement.

All the "normal" people who like taking train trips I have spoken to see no problem with the new method of FR timetabling. In fact several have said it is actually easier to understand.

And John, you've ranted on about this here, but have you actually put finger to keyboard and emailed the Operations Manager about your concerns?
 

30907

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The whole point of the WHR as it was sold was to relieve traffic from Snowdonia's roads. How much of that objective it really fills is questionable.
I am surprised at that, to be honest - I don't see that it could ever have a significant impact with its pre-Covid 2-3 trains daily. What it might do is bring more tourists into the area without increased road traffic, I suppose.
 

John Luxton

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Three points:

Portmeirion, where we were on Sunday, encourage pre-boooking and time slots. That seems to have been conveniently ignored by some here.

We had a drink and a meal in Spooners, and asked if we could get on one of the trains out of Port, and there would have been no problem with us doing so, therefore pre-booking is NOT a requirement.

All the "normal" people who like taking train trips I have spoken to see no problem with the new method of FR timetabling. In fact several have said it is actually easier to understand.

And John, you've ranted on about this here, but have you actually put finger to keyboard and emailed the Operations Manager about your concerns?
I don't know about day visits I have not done these since Covid but just staying visits - however, from what I could see people were just walking in even last year to Portmeirion.

No I have not written to the railway but have noted that others have passed comment in previous issues of the FRM.

I think the General Manager is pretty good at publicising the rationale behind the changes:
Thanks for the link.

I had detuned from FWHR Youtube postings at the start of the 2022 and had missed this.

The one point I don't get and I have seen it repeated elsewhere (probably FRM) is suggestion that some passengers still want separate seating due to C19.

How is it that some FWHR passengers still seem to want Covid style seating?

This isn't something that is provided for at Llangollen and from my observation on recent visits to Talyllyn very few were taking advantage of reserving complete compartments this season.

Llangollen isn't even pandering to the Covid anxious market, Talyllyn is making a token gesture which isn't being taken up. Even maskivist TfW have been back to normal with no face mask requirement since March.

It really is time to move on.
 
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jumble

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I am afraid John doesnt understand the difference of scale between the operation of the FR/WHR and Llangollen / Talyllyn. Im afraid he is in for a very long wait for normal running.
Indeed
Both the Talyllyn and Welshpool as I understand it lose money hand over fist but have very generous supporters and legacies which I imagine makes a difference between running a commercial operation to make a profit or not.
 
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