Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland - Timetables?

[Essexman]

Have the Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland given up publishing a timetable and acting as a useful railway, in favour of just named day trips?
That's all I could find on their website when I looked for times for a possible round trip in Wales.
I want to use the railway as a service, not a 'theme park ride'.

Train Services - Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railways

Train Services - Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railways

www.festrail.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a bit hidden but:

https://www.festrail.co.uk/pdf/timetable_2022.pdf

There is apparently an "unreserved coach" for people using intermediate stations - more detail here:

Intermediate Travel - Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railways

Intermediate Travel - Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railways

www.festrail.co.uk

 

[blackfive460]

Have the Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland given up publishing a timetable and acting as a useful railway, in favour of just named day trips?
That's all I could find on their website when I looked for times for a possible round trip in Wales.
I want to use the railway as a service, not a 'theme park ride'.

From what I've read elsewhere it appears that during the pandemic restrictions when they introduced pre-booking they found that running fewer trains but filling them was much better from a financial point of view so have continued that way and seem likely to do so for the foreseeable future.
I believe that it is possible to book individual journeys on the day but you risk trains being full or not running and information is hard to come by so my view is that the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways are no longer considered a public transport service.
Shame!

 

[notverydeep]

It's a bit hidden but:

https://www.festrail.co.uk/pdf/timetable_2022.pdf

There is apparently an "unreserved coach" for people using intermediate stations - more detail here:

Intermediate Travel - Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railways

Intermediate Travel - Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railways

www.festrail.co.uk

I travelled on the Harbour Master (Porthmadog - Caernarfon - Porthmadog) last Friday 26 August. The unreserved coach was busy and I think the reserved carriages were full / nearly full, but as far as I could tell no one was left behind, so I would recomend booking if you can. Doing this a few days before at Caernarfon was quite a time consumig process. The Talyllyn, Fairbourne and Bala Lake railways were less busy and travel on the day was no problem, to the point where I wondered whether their, 'book in advance' recommendations on websites might be putting off potential last minute passengers...

Back to the WHR, NGG16 130 really struggled on the NB trip approaching Beddgelert, going at a slow walkinig pace with plenty of slipping for some distance over some minutes and just avoiding slipping to a stand. A member of footplate noted that the reverse curves here give a degree of flange bind. Very entertaining though!

From what I've read elsewhere it appears that during the pandemic restrictions when they introduced pre-booking they found that running fewer trains but filling them was much better from a financial point of view so have continued that way and seem likely to do so for the foreseeable future.
I believe that it is possible to book individual journeys on the day but you risk trains being full or not running and information is hard to come by so my view is that the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways are no longer considered a public transport service.
Shame!

While I queued to book, a couple arrived and went away dissappointed that the last (only) train of the day had departed despite it being mid morning, particualrly having had to queue for some minutes to find this out. The WHR process (at stations at least) is clearly longer and more complicated than it should be and was clearly causing the staff some frustration...

It seems odd to have spent so much on restoring the WHR to run such a sparse service (in particular trains across the entire line operating only two days a week). On the Talyllyn as well, the (high summer) timetabled service was clearly reduced from my visits and volunteering in the late 1980s. Tourist numbers across North Wales seemed very low by comparison to my memories of that time and especially compared to Dorset earlier this summer, even though numbers here are down from 2020 - 2021.

 

[paul1609]

Have the Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland given up publishing a timetable and acting as a useful railway, in favour of just named day trips?
That's all I could find on their website when I looked for times for a possible round trip in Wales.
I want to use the railway as a service, not a 'theme park ride'.

Train Services - Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railways

Train Services - Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railways

www.festrail.co.uk

I think the answer to your question is that the railways have always been in the modern era a tourist railway that had spare capacity to offer a marginal "public transport" function. The reality is that from about 2015 onwards the costs of the resources started to escalate which reduced the viability of the railways. What they are now doing is matching the supply offered to the resources that they have available. I understand why this is not what the very small percentage of their customers who are enthusiasts want and that we will get threads on here every couple of months moaning about it but the reality is that its not going to change in the short term and its going to effect all heritage railways to some extent.

 

[DarloRich]

I think the answer to your question is that the railways have always been in the modern era a tourist railway that had spare capacity to offer a marginal "public transport" function. The reality is that from about 2015 onwards the costs of the resources started to escalate which reduced the viability of the railways. What they are now doing is matching the supply offered to the resources that they have available. I understand why this is not what the very small percentage of their customers who are enthusiasts want and that we will get threads on here every couple of months moaning about it but the reality is that its not going to change in the short term and its going to effect all heritage railways to some extent.

Spot on: Members of this board find change difficult and find it hard to understand that what they want is not what works for the railway or the majority of thier passengers.

We were recently in Wales and although we didn't travel ( we did the Bala Lake) happened to see a couple of WHR and FR trains come into Porthmadoc. All were well loaded despite being, apparently, a "fairground ride"! Personally I would be more inclined to complain about the price of the tickets but each to thier own.

 

[Bletchleyite]

the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways are no longer considered a public transport service.

They have never really been a public transport service. Pretty much no preserved railway is, and those that have attempted it (e.g. the Wensleydale) have usually found it hopelessly uneconomic. Sometimes they're incidentally useful for it (some more than others, e.g. Swanage is quite handy for the P&R at Norden, specifically because of its location and how unpleasant driving to the area is with limited and very costly parking) but not that often due to low frequencies, high prices and limited operating hours.

I have wondered if it'd make sense to subsidise a more frequent DMU service on the WHR and FfR instead of the parallel bus services, but that has never really been on the agenda.

The one thing they did really need to deal with was offering a more attractive price for single travellers, but they now do, you can book a table for two to yourself, a bit more like you might in a restaurant if eating alone.

We were recently in Wales and although we didn't travel ( we did the Bala Lake) happened to see a couple of WHR and FR trains come into Porthmadoc. All were well loaded despite being, apparently, a "fairground ride"! Personally I would be more inclined to complain about the price of the tickets but each to thier own.

The price of the tickets give a useful indication as to what they'd need to charge, and how sparse the service would be, were a branch line like e.g. the Marston Vale being operated commercially, and why subsidy is essential to regional rail operation. Though the FfR is particularly expensive to operate - the prices on more basic heritage operations e.g. the Swanage or Wensleydale are probably a better indication than the FfR/WHR.

 

[DarloRich]

The price of the tickets give a useful indication as to what they'd need to charge, and how sparse the service would be, were a branch line like e.g. the Marston Vale being operated commercially, and why subsidy is essential to regional rail operation. Though the FfR is particularly expensive to operate - the prices on more basic heritage operations e.g. the Swanage or Wensleydale are probably a better indication than the FfR/WHR.

noted - but being Northern I complain about the price of everything!

PS give me a couple of steamers and will turn you a profit on the Vale. Sunday service opportunity

 

[Essexman]

Thanks for replies.
There used to be quite an intensive service on the full length of the Ffestioniog but now it seems only two trains a day run the full length and not every day).
It's very disappointing but if the numbers of visitors aren't there clearly they can't afford to run lightly loaded trains.
I recall holidays in the 60s, 70s and 80s when the trains were packed and again in early 2000s when they were very busy.
Since then I've tended to visit out of season but the Ffestioniog had a through service running almost all year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

PS give me a couple of steamers and will turn you a profit on the Vale. Sunday service opportunity

Does the 230s catching themselves on fire count? Could sell marshmallows on sticks to toast I guess.

 

[A0wen]

I have wondered if it'd make sense to subsidise a more frequent DMU service on the WHR and FfR instead of the parallel bus services, but that has never really been on the agenda.

The simple answer is no - the bus can do Ffestiniog to Porthmadog in under 30 minutes.

The train takes 1h 10m (at least) - they'd need to virtually double their speed and run non-stop to even get close.

That's before you then get into the cost for the railway of actually running such a service and the fares they'd need to charge to cover their costs.

It's one of those where the bus makes far more sense than the railway ever could - at least as far as a sensible public transport solution goes. As a heritage / tourist attraction the train wins.

 

[paul1609]

noted - but being Northern I complain about the price of everything!

PS give me a couple of steamers and will turn you a profit on the Vale. Sunday service opportunity

"Mainline" steam of course receives a substancial subsidy not received by preserved railways in that they pay only the marginal cost in their track access charges. The baseline costs having been paid by the tax payer through the track access grant.

Thanks for replies.
There used to be quite an intensive service on the full length of the Ffestioniog but now it seems only two trains a day run the full length and not every day).
It's very disappointing but if the numbers of visitors aren't there clearly they can't afford to run lightly loaded trains.
I recall holidays in the 60s, 70s and 80s when the trains were packed and again in early 2000s when they were very busy.
Since then I've tended to visit out of season but the Ffestioniog had a through service running almost all year.

Think of it the other way round. They dont have the resources one of which is finance to run the traditional service so they couldnt run the trains empty if they wanted to. They are targetting the resources they do have volunteers, finance etc to target the market that makes the best return in order to ensure the survival of the railway.

 

[Essexman]

Yes, of course the most important thing is that the lines make enough money and have enough resources to stay open.
The market for people like myself who happen to have a couple of free days between being in Southampton & Liverpool so consider going via the Cambrian Coast must be rather limited.
I might go via Heart of Wales instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, of course the most important thing is that the lines make enough money and have enough resources to stay open.
The market for people like myself who happen to have a couple of free days between being in Southampton & Liverpool so consider going via the Cambrian Coast must be rather limited.
I might go via Heart of Wales instead.

3B - Porthmadog - Blaenau Ffestiniog

Llew Jones Coaches

bustimes.org

Almost as scenic as the FfR and only a few quid.

FWIW I found the Heart of Wales a bit boring. Not unpleasant, but 4 hours of mostly average rolling-hills scenery is a bit much. Whereas the Cambrian and Conwy Valley are spectacular. I'd accept the bus for that.

 

[nanstallon]

The reality on the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland railways has always (in preservation days) been that people are riding for fun; occasionally hikers using the steam train to get to or from a place not on the bus route, but not in such numbers as to justify the service - unlike DalesRail in the 70s. Enthusiasts like me might kid ourselves that we are using a public transport facility. The transition to a theme park experience shatters any such illusion.

 

[notverydeep]

The reality on the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland railways has always (in preservation days) been that people are riding for fun; occasionally hikers using the steam train to get to or from a place not on the bus route, but not in such numbers as to justify the service - unlike DalesRail in the 70s. Enthusiasts like me might kid ourselves that we are using a public transport facility. The transition to a theme park experience shatters any such illusion.

Indeed and even the occasional hikers are those prepared to pay a very high fare per kilometre compared a normal rail fare - most do probably because the fun ride adds to the experience. Even in the few loactions where a heritage line could generate significant 'normal' traffic, they tend not to as they run only seasonal sometimes weekend only services with a price set to the norm for a 'day out' rather than the fare from A to B. It is very hard to devise a charging / fares model that keeps the premium paid by tourist traffic, while allowing 'normal' passengers a level of value for money comparable to other public transport. There are a few places abroad that do mix heritage operations and 'normal' public transport, some of the narrow gauge routes in Switzerland and a few of Japan's 'third sector' lines being examples.

In the UK, even where the line has been are minded to try to provide such a service, the costs and difficulties tend to be out of all proportion to the traffic available, witness the Swanage railway's failure to meet its long term aim of permenantly linking services to Wareham, despite being parrallel to a busy road and bus route.

At first sight the WHR might seem to fit into this category, being the only rail service to Caernarfon, but to travel to Cardiff, Birmingham or Euston by rail via the WHR and the Cambrian would likely add four to five hours to such a journey compared to driving to Bangor, even if they had a few DMU one person operated 'normal traffic' services in addition to their very intensively staffed heritage services. Instead the Welsh Highland seems to be focused on being a mini 'Glacier Express' like experience. The Harbourmaster train from Porthmadog for example carried at least six members of on board customer service staff (and I assume most of these were staff rather than volunteers) and includes an element of on train catering (bookable). A shame they don't use the Glacier Express, with their panoramic windows as a model for their coaches though...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Snowdon Sherpa and the Trawscymru T10 are the public transport and are quicker and more frequent. Though I have wondered about the idea of providing a regular DMU service in addition to their "Glacier Express".

 

[paul1609]

Indeed and even the occasional hikers are those prepared to pay a very high fare per kilometre compared a normal rail fare - most do probably because the fun ride adds to the experience. Even in the few loactions where a heritage line could generate significant 'normal' traffic, they tend not to as they run only seasonal sometimes weekend only services with a price set to the norm for a 'day out' rather than the fare from A to B. It is very hard to devise a charging / fares model that keeps the premium paid by tourist traffic, while allowing 'normal' passengers a level of value for money comparable to other public transport. There are a few places abroad that do mix heritage operations and 'normal' public transport, some of the narrow gauge routes in Switzerland and a few of Japan's 'third sector' lines being examples.

In the UK, even where the line has been are minded to try to provide such a service, the costs and difficulties tend to be out of all proportion to the traffic available, witness the Swanage railway's failure to meet its long term aim of permenantly linking services to Wareham, despite being parrallel to a busy road and bus route.

At first sight the WHR might seem to fit into this category, being the only rail service to Caernarfon, but to travel to Cardiff, Birmingham or Euston by rail via the WHR and the Cambrian would likely add four to five hours to such a journey compared to driving to Bangor, even if they had a few DMU one person operated 'normal traffic' services in addition to their very intensively staffed heritage services. Instead the Welsh Highland seems to be focused on being a mini 'Glacier Express' like experience. The Harbourmaster train from Porthmadog for example carried at least six members of on board customer service staff (and I assume most of these were staff rather than volunteers) and includes an element of on train catering (bookable). A shame they don't use the Glacier Express, with their panoramic windows as a model for their coaches though...

I think you have to bear in mind that the heritage railways fare has to cover all the costs of the journey.
The public transport journey payment consists of the fare plus support from general taxation, in many cases thats many times the upfront fare. This support weirdly includes stuff like the Jacobean, Grosmont to Whitby, mainline railtours and open access operators all of whom only pay marginal costs of wear on the infrastructure.

 

[notverydeep]

I think you have to bear in mind that the heritage railways fare has to cover all the costs of the journey.
The public transport journey payment consists of the fare plus support from general taxation, in many cases thats many times the upfront fare. This support weirdly includes stuff like the Jacobean, Grosmont to Whitby, mainline railtours and open access operators all of whom only pay marginal costs of wear on the infrastructure.

Exactly, which is why almost* all attempts to provide 'normal' public transport on heritage lines have been unsuccessful. None of the railways have been able to make them financially viable, even as is the case of the Swanage to Wareham service, with some external funding from Dorset County Council.

I wasn't going to put the word 'almost' in here, as I can't think of any current examples and don't expect to see any in the future. However, a few pioneers did manage this in their early years before car ownership increased from the 1960s. Perhaps the school train on the RH&DR which stopped running in July 2015 is the only recent example.

 

[paul1609]

Exactly, which is why almost* all attempts to provide 'normal' public transport on heritage lines have been unsuccessful. None of the railways have been able to make them financially viable, even as is the case of the Swanage to Wareham service, with some external funding from Dorset County Council.

I wasn't going to put the word 'almost' in here, as I can't think of any current examples and don't expect to see any in the future. However, a few pioneers did manage this in their early years before car ownership increased from the 1960s. Perhaps the school train on the RH&DR which stopped running in July 2015 is the only recent example.

The RH&DR school trains were actually charters run for Kent County Council by the railway at commercial rates. The railway didnt actually bear any financial risk from them.

 

[Maybach]

This is worth a read. It's from earlier in the year but still relevant:

Train services on the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways

The March / April 2022 service pattern There are ongoing discussions, which at times are becoming quite heated, within the wider Ffestiniog / Welsh Highland Railway community about the nature of th…

profchrisbaker.com

 

[paul1609]

This is worth a read. It's from earlier in the year but still relevant:

Train services on the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways

The March / April 2022 service pattern There are ongoing discussions, which at times are becoming quite heated, within the wider Ffestiniog / Welsh Highland Railway community about the nature of th…

profchrisbaker.com

Ah Robin Coombs that name rings a bell!

 

[John Luxton]

They have never really been a public transport service. Pretty much no preserved railway is, and those that have attempted it (e.g. the Wensleydale) have usually found it hopelessly uneconomic. Sometimes they're incidentally useful for it

I would disagree with that. When the link to Blaenau was opened it was marketed as very much as part of the national network. Red Star Parcels were carried as well. People arriving in Blaenau by train did use the line. The line provides a direct link between the north Wales coast to the Cambrian Coast. Besides just before Covid struck there were grand plans for redeveloping Blaenau Ffestiniog Station to allow cross platform interchange from TfW.

I for one have been very disappointed by this new experience approach and it is clear many others are. For that reason I have only travelled on the FR and WHR once this year. Much less than I normally would. As a life member of both supporting societies whilst I did pay for fares - I did spend generously in the retail outlets. My next planned trip for Bygones Weekend is now in the balance. As my accommodation is flexible - I am already thinking of cancelling and heading off somewhere else.

Basically I am voting with my feet and I dare say quite a few others are too. I will spend my money elsewhere until the railway returns to normal operation. I have been at Talyllyn twice in the past 6 weeks and its 100% normal with people coming and going from the train at various stations. The only covid hang over is selling complete compartments for journeys starting from Tywyn. There is no problem with that as for a family group it makes sense and ensures everyone can sit together when busy.

Quite interesting to note TR trains were quite busy too.

 

[philthetube]

I travelled approx.25 years ago from Colne to Llanbedr, a route I was offered involved using the FR. I cannot remember Where my itinerary came from, too early for the net, but I can't think where else. I saw it written down somewhere, as I was given 2 alternatives, the FR one being 5 changes and a 7 hour journey.

 

[lyndhurst25]

And fares such as this still exist

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

a return ticket that, in theory at least, allows travel back on any day within a month.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I recently looked at the FR/WHR current offer. It reminded me very much of the White Pass and Yukon offer. A set menu of themed out and back trips, depending upon how long you wish a trip to last, what type of carriage you prefer and what type of traction. Nothing wrong with that if it brings in the customers but it is an experience rather than a transport service.

I last travelled on the FR in 1998, using a North & Mid Wales Rover ticket. This included the FR at no extra cost and I did the round trip to Porthmadog having arrived at (and returned from) Blaenau on a connecting Conwy Valley service.

There is a mostly complete set of historic timetables available at Festipedia: FR timetables

A quick analysis of services provided between Porthmadog and Blaenau Ffestiniog over the years:

year	services timetabled (up to, high summer tt)
1982	11
1998	10
2001	10
2006	8
2007	8
2010	8
2011	8
2012	7
2013	7
2014	7
2015	7
2016	7
2017	8
2018	8
2019	8

Nowhere near the level of decline I had 'in my head'. Hopefully they can return to 'normal service' as soon as possible.

 

[paul1609]

It appears to me that theres an enthusiast element out there that are acting like the three monkeys. The "normal" service wont be returning unless;
a) the minimum wage is reduced by 25%
b) coal prices are reduced by 75%
c) electricity is reduced by 75%
d) all other prices go back to 2015 levels.
If you are a member of the railway this has been comprehensively explained in Pauls you tube videos.

 

[Sniffingmoose]

Just been trying to plan a Ffestiniog Round Robin, One day circular journey only in either direction from any station on the route Shrewsbury, Machynlleth, Porthmadog, Blaneau Ffestiniog, Llandudno Junction, Chester, Wrexham, Shrewsbury and includes a single journey on the Ffestiniog Railway.

I wanted to travel this Friday and I wanted to start from Birmingham

GB RAIL ROVER GUIDE - Ffestiniog Round Robin

How to find rail rover and ranger tickets on the national rail network. Rover and ranger tickets are cheap tickets for rail travel

www.railrover.org

I could not find Ffestionoig train times and also how many trains do the full journey on their website. However I emailed the Ffestiniog Railway and thay replied next day saying that only one train will do the full journey this Friday leaving Bleanau FFestioniog at 12:20 arriving at Porthmadoc at 13:35. I still have no idea the timings of the Ffestionog service in the other direction.

Now because the Round Robin ticket is only valid on Transport for Wales services I cannot get to Bleanau Ffestiniog before 12:20 using Transport for Wales Services from Birmingham. I can do it using other operators via Crewe. Furthermore the Round Robin journey is not possible next week because of long term bus replacement on the Cambrian Coast line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's an hourly bus from Blaenau to Porthmadog which is fairly cheap, that will enable your round trip if the FfR isn't key to it.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It appears to me that theres an enthusiast element out there that are acting like the three monkeys. The "normal" service wont be returning unless;
a) the minimum wage is reduced by 25%
b) coal prices are reduced by 75%
c) electricity is reduced by 75%
d) all other prices go back to 2015 levels.
If you are a member of the railway this has been comprehensively explained in Pauls you tube videos.

The question is therefore: are these preserved railways (original equipment as far as possible), heritage railways (a convenient mix of original and replica equipment which looks old) or 'attractions' which happen to use historical routes but could just as easily be built from scratch with all new equipment?

How big is the market for fully professional railway attractions? How many volunteers will leave the 'big' attractions for the 'lesser' ones where they can properly get their hands on? A factor mentioned in the linked research paper as 'social capital'. Without a large army of volunteers how long can they survive as pure businesses? One way of reducing 'the minimum wage by 25%' is to use volunteers! Cost of travel on such lines seems to be increasing rapidly. £40 for a return from Porthmadog to Blaenau, £55 from Porthmadog to Caernarfon compared to £6 for a 1bws ticket which gets you there quicker, operates more frequently and all-year round, oh and covers both routes for the one payment of £6.

The 'tourist' market is extremely fickle, one year you are the number one must visit attraction, next year something else comes along and you fade away.