Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland - Timetables?

[DarloRich]

It appears to me that theres an enthusiast element out there that are acting like the three monkeys.

Correct

BTW I am not a member of any preserved railway but I can see what the challenges are and am able to be realistic about them. I would rather have an "experiance" outing rather than no outing!

I for one have been very disappointed by this new experience approach and it is clear many others are.

My partner and I visited this line earlier in the year and had a great day out and we used the evil pre booking approach :-0. Most people want an out and back trip. They want a steam train. They want some chuffing and some peeping. They might want a cup of tea and a bun on the way and they might want some time at one end for a bite to eat or for a pint. They want to travel on a steam train in a roughly period environment and have a fun day out.

If that is an "experiance" then I am ok with that and understand why preserved railways have moved to that approach. What I don't understand is why that is so difficult for posters here to grasp. I know change and the modern world is hard but things do move on and perhaps what you want to see isn't financially possible or viable anymore.

The question is therefore: are these preserved railways (original equipment as far as possible), heritage railways (a convenient mix of original and replica equipment which looks old) or 'attractions' which happen to use historical routes but could just as easily be built from scratch with all new equipment?

They are both heritage railways and attractions - why do posters here have to make a distinction? - what they are not is set in stone as to how they offer thier heritage attraction to customers.

Most (insert favourite badge here) would fold without steam trains - they are the main attraction for most visitors. You must know this.

One way of reducing 'the minimum wage by 25%' is to use volunteers!

The problem is the world has moved on and thier are jobs that aren't appropriate for volunteers, especially in relation the statutory/regulatory/competency management world.

Cost of travel on such lines seems to be increasing rapidly. £40 for a return from Porthmadog to Blaenau, £55 from Porthmadog to Caernarfon compared to £6 for a 1bws ticket which gets you there quicker, operates more frequently and all-year round, oh and covers both routes for the one payment of £6.

I think you wilfully misrepresent the comparison to make a thin point. Overlooking all of the associated costs and charges my friends electric car can make the journey more cheaply and more quickly than the bus. Should all visitors be issued with an electric car?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I think you wilfully misrepresent the comparison to make a thin point. Overlooking all of the associated costs and charges my friends electric car can make the journey more cheaply and more quickly than the bus. Should all visitors be issued with an electric car?

I merged two points badly.

As a mode of transport ONLY clearly no-one* would pay £95 compared to £6 to travel from Caernarfon to Blaenau via Porthmadog. If an electric car is cheaper then yes, perhaps a return or one-way hire arrangement may make more sense.

But I also wonder whether as an experience £40 / £55 is rather excessive, particularly once you look at family ticket prices. I think I have been left behind regarding what I think is value for money compared to what many people seem prepared to pay (throw away!) nowadays. I may, once, be prepared to pay £40 to be hauled uphill by horses and run downhill by gravity (with men on each wagon to steady things) but I don't think that's entirely possible since the deviation was built.

*Okay, there would be a very small number.

 

[DarloRich]

But I also wonder whether as an experience £40 / £55 is rather excessive, particularly once you look at family ticket prices. I think I have been left behind regarding what I think is value for money compared to what many people seem prepared to pay (throw away!) nowadays.

But how much is a family trip to the pictures these days? how much for a trip to the swimming baths? Things are expensive these days.

For two adults the NYMR cost me the best part of £80 for two tickets last time I went. The WSR was £60 the other week. The SVR is close to £60. When considered in that regard the WHR/FR doesn't seem out of the ordinary for a premier heritage railway

I merged two points badly.

noted!

 

[eMeS]

We used the Porthmadog to Caernarfon WHR in October 2012, and my memories are that we had very little time at Caernarfon before we needed to be back at the station for our return journey. From the EXIF data on my photos, I'm guessing that we left Porthmadog at about 11:15, got to Caernarfon around two hours later at around 13:30, and had just enough time to visit the town square, and find Lloyd George's statue. Then back to the station to ensure we didn't get stranded in Caernarfon! I don't remember what the fare was in 2012, and that suggests it must have been "reasonable".

 

[Baxenden Bank]

We used the Porthmadog to Caernarfon WHR in October 2012, and my memories are that we had very little time at Caernarfon before we needed to be back at the station for our return journey. From the EXIF data on my photos, I'm guessing that we left Porthmadog at about 11:15, got to Caernarfon around two hours later at around 13:30, and had just enough time to visit the town square, and find Lloyd George's statue. Then back to the station to ensure we didn't get stranded in Caernarfon! I don't remember what the fare was in 2012, and that suggests it must have been "reasonable".

Most likely: 1100 - 1325, 1430 - 1655
link to timetable

No fares shown.

 

[bramling]

But how much is a family trip to the pictures these days? how much for a trip to the swimming baths? Things are expensive these days.

Being realistic cuts both ways though. We were looking at visiting a preserved railway last weekend. I’m not going to name names, however two (fairly short) round trips in a compartment for two people was going to cost £118. We can certainly happily afford that, but decided quite frankly that is out of proportion by several orders of magnitude, so decided not to bother. When having the “family discussion” about it, we both agreed that patronising this model is only encouraging it, so decided it was the right decision on principle.

One of life’s lessons is that generally when one takes a decision, it’s often the case that others do the same. It was notable that there were plenty of compartments available on the online booking page.

Something like Ffestiniog might be able to get away with this in the shorter term whilst there’s a supply of grockle tourists, but cost of living pressures and restarting of foreign holidays is going to chip away at this. Likewise it’s one thing saying people want to spend an hour on a puffer train, but if one looks at something like tripadviser reviews for something like the Ffestiniog aren’t always glowing, and if people come away feeling fleeced then they’re not going to repeat the experience, and word will likely spread.

*If* heritage railways are going to move to the experience model, the flip side of the coin is they need to damn well provide an experience which people feel represents good value for money. Stuffing people in a fully loaded train where by the middle of the experience people are looking at their watches willing it to end and serving them with stale buns is not going to be conducive to a healthy long-term future.

 

[paul1609]

The question is therefore: are these preserved railways (original equipment as far as possible), heritage railways (a convenient mix of original and replica equipment which looks old) or 'attractions' which happen to use historical routes but could just as easily be built from scratch with all new equipment?

How big is the market for fully professional railway attractions? How many volunteers will leave the 'big' attractions for the 'lesser' ones where they can properly get their hands on? A factor mentioned in the linked research paper as 'social capital'. Without a large army of volunteers how long can they survive as pure businesses? One way of reducing 'the minimum wage by 25%' is to use volunteers!

Or you use the volunteers youve got on services where they maximise revenue and drop the marginal services that were provided by paid staff. You could call the trains experiences!

 

[geoffk]

Intermediate Travel - Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railways

Intermediate Travel - Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railways

www.festrail.co.uk

Better than nothing but this isn't what I would call a proper timetable and I would to have to rewrite it with trains in time order. Also the note "not all services run on a daily basis" is not very helpful.

 

[DarloRich]

Being realistic cuts both ways though. We were looking at visiting a preserved railway last weekend. I’m not going to name names, however two (fairly short) round trips in a compartment for two people was going to cost £118.

However, most people wont be doing 2 return trips though so it looks like £60 for 2 adults for a single trip. That seems about comparable for a "top level" railway but perhaps a touch high for a championship level railway.

The compartment booking isn't that big a thing surely. I would be happy with that! I dont want to mic with the great unwashed

When having the “family discussion” about it, we both agreed that patronising this model is only encouraging it, so decided it was the right decision on principle.

That is your choice. Personally it wouldn't bother me but each to thier own. I will say that when the railways close some of the blame will be yours.

*If* heritage railways are going to move to the experience model, the flip side of the coin is they need to damn well provide an experience which people feel represents good value for money. Stuffing people in a fully loaded train where by the middle of the experience people are looking at their watches willing it to end and serving them with stale buns is not going to be conducive to a healthy long-term future.

Of course - but that is the same for any business. If they don't offer a good product they wont survive.

Something like Ffestiniog might be able to get away with this in the shorter term whilst there’s a supply of grockle tourists, but cost of living pressures and restarting of foreign holidays is going to chip away at this.

again - same as any business. the FR/WHR have made a decision that thier business is best served by the model they have selected. It clearly isn't popular with posters here but if they are wrong they wont prosper. When we travelled ( and of course this is anecdotal) the train was well loaded if not full.

I will say that the demographic was older than we are and didn't feature many children

 

[eMeS]

Most likely: 1100 - 1325, 1430 - 1655
link to timetable

No fares shown.

Many thanks for that.
I'm sure that the WHR had their very good reasons for the short time at Caernarfon in 2012 but it's meant that we haven't visited that area (by rail) since then.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Better than nothing but this isn't what I would call a proper timetable and I would to have to rewrite it with trains in time order. Also the note "not all services run on a daily basis" is not very helpful.

Here you go, for what it's worth.
As an avid Blue Peter viewer many years ago, I made my own!
I seem to recall John Noakes did a report on the deviationists building the new tunnel.

days	most	?	?	?	most	?		ww - days not stated, upto 5 trains per day according to demand
named train	ms	ww	ww	ww	ms	ww
Porthmadog	1030	1055	1155	1355	1430	1455
Minfford	1040	1105	1205	1405	1440	1505
Penrhyn	1045	1110	1210	1410	1445	1510
Tan-y-Bwlch	1110	1135	1230	1435	1510	1530
Tanygrisiau	1130	..	..	..	1530	..
Blaenau Ffestiniog	1145	..	..	..	1545	..
	£40	£25	£25	£25	£40	£25		£25.60 for an all day rover in 2019
days	?	most	?	?	?	most
named train	ww	ms	ww	ww	ww	ms
Blaenau Ffestiniog	..	1225	..	..	..	1625
Tanygrisiau	..	1230	..	..	..	1630
Tan-y-Bwlch	1230	1255	1330	1530	1630	1655
Penrhyn	1250	1310	1350	1550	1650	1710
Minfford	1300	1320	1405	1555	1655	1720
Porthmadog	1310	1335	1420	1610	1710	1735
	£25	£40	£25	£25	£25	£40
days	fr-sa	su-th	su-th	tuth+	su-th	fr-sa
named train	ss	gv	ge	tc	gv	th
Caernarfon	1000	..	1130	1230	..	1420
Waunfawr	1030	..	1200	1300	..	1450
Rhyd Ddu	1055	..	1230	1330	..	1520
Beddgelert	1130	1215	1300	..	1540	1550
Croesor	..	1240	..	..	1605	..
Porthmadog	1215	1300	..	..	1620	1630
	£55	£35	£45	£30	£35	£55
days	fr-sa	su-th	tuth+	su-th	su-th	fr-sa
named train	th	gv	tc	gv	ge	ss
Porthmadog	0940	1015	..	1340	..	1415
Croesor	..	1030	..	1355	..	..
Beddgelert	1020	1100	..	1425	1430	1455
Rhyd Ddu	1055	..	1400	..	1455	1525
Waunfawr	1130	..	1425	..	1525	1555
Caernarfon	1205	..	1500	..	1600	1630
	£55	£35	£30	£35	£45	£55

 

[bramling]

However, most people wont be doing 2 return trips though so it looks like £60 for 2 adults for a single trip. That seems about comparable for a "top level" railway but perhaps a touch high for a championship level railway.

The thing is, to put it another way, £60 I would still regard as rather steep for essentially an hour’s “experience”, one third of which is the turnaround time at the other end. We’re not talking stunning scenery or any other special features, just a bog standard return trip in a Mk1 compartment.

That is your choice. Personally it wouldn't bother me but each to thier own. I will say that when the railways close some of the blame will be yours.

On the latter point, that’s probably a reluctant so-be-it. If these places can’t provide a viable product, they’re not going to survive. We are quite happy to pay up well, but the experience has to match the price tag.

again - same as any business. the FR/WHR have made a decision that thier business is best served by the model they have selected. It clearly isn't popular with posters here but if they are wrong they wont prosper. When we travelled ( and of course this is anecdotal) the train was well loaded if not full.

On the latter point, their model seems to work on the basis of running full trains. For many this is going to devalue the experience straight away - it’s one thing travelling on a full train to work when there’s no choice, perhaps likewise in August being realistic people know a tourist railway is going to be full, but most of the time this experience *isn’t* what people expect, and certainly not if they’re now paying very high prices for it. For something like the Ffestiniog, for the prices now being asked I would expect a sole-use compartment in one of their heritage “lockup” carriages, provide that and I’ll happily pay. It seems the “experience” model may well turn out to be some way out of step with the types of rolling stock they have been building in recent years.

For another perspective on the “experience” model, check out tripadviser for Snowdon Mountain Railway, who have been running this model for many years, in their case to be fair out of necessity because of their low capacity. The reviews certainly aren’t glowing. In their case people will do it because it’s Snowdon, but this doesn’t apply to your average heritage railway. Over time I have a strong feeling the experience model is going to make many of these railways an irrelevance, unless they really can go the extra mile to offer a product which matches the price offered. Half an hour in a grubby Mk1 with a screaming kid providing entertainment for the journey really isn’t going to fit that bill.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Re Snowdon I have never understood why they persist with single coaches. Surely a more Swiss like model with a 4 or 5 car DMU, including a less cramped first class, would be more economic given their high passenger numbers.

 

[Mojo]

It's actually cheaper to join the Ffestiniog Railway Society as a member, and then benefit for free Third class travel throughout your membership year, than it is to buy a return ticket for the line. And this is before you even take into account the discounted tickets for the Welsh Highland Railway and other preserved lines.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It's actually cheaper to join the Ffestiniog Railway Society as a member, and then benefit for free Third class travel throughout your membership year, than it is to buy a return ticket for the line. And this is before you even take into account the discounted tickets for the Welsh Highland Railway and other preserved lines.

Err, truly remarkable.

The only drawback being you have to become a member in advance? Now if they offered society membership on the spot, with immediate travel benefits....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Err, truly remarkable.

The only drawback being you have to become a member in advance? Now if they offered society membership on the spot, with immediate travel benefits....

Very common practice in museums is to charge a quid extra for an annual pass which can be Gift Aided.

 

[John Luxton]

It's actually cheaper to join the Ffestiniog Railway Society as a member, and then benefit for free Third class travel throughout your membership year, than it is to buy a return ticket for the line. And this is before you even take into account the discounted tickets for the Welsh Highland Railway and other preserved lines.

It is even better to join as a life member. I joined the FRS many years ago when it was quite cheap as that gives first class fares. I also joined the WHRS as a life member in 2020 that wasn't so cheap as they had just doubled the life membership rate perhaps because they realised a life time 1st Class season ticket for £1k was a tad cheap.

Here you go, for what it's worth.
As an avid Blue Peter viewer many years ago, I made my own!
I seem to recall John Noakes did a report on the deviationists building the new tunnel.

days	most	?	?	?	most	?		ww - days not stated, upto 5 trains per day according to demand
named train	ms	ww	ww	ww	ms	ww
Porthmadog	1030	1055	1155	1355	1430	1455
Minfford	1040	1105	1205	1405	1440	1505
Penrhyn	1045	1110	1210	1410	1445	1510
Tan-y-Bwlch	1110	1135	1230	1435	1510	1530
Tanygrisiau	1130	..	..	..	1530	..
Blaenau Ffestiniog	1145	..	..	..	1545	..
	£40	£25	£25	£25	£40	£25		£25.60 for an all day rover in 2019
days	?	most	?	?	?	most
named train	ww	ms	ww	ww	ww	ms
Blaenau Ffestiniog	..	1225	..	..	..	1625
Tanygrisiau	..	1230	..	..	..	1630
Tan-y-Bwlch	1230	1255	1330	1530	1630	1655
Penrhyn	1250	1310	1350	1550	1650	1710
Minfford	1300	1320	1405	1555	1655	1720
Porthmadog	1310	1335	1420	1610	1710	1735
	£25	£40	£25	£25	£25	£40
days	fr-sa	su-th	su-th	tuth+	su-th	fr-sa
named train	ss	gv	ge	tc	gv	th
Caernarfon	1000	..	1130	1230	..	1420
Waunfawr	1030	..	1200	1300	..	1450
Rhyd Ddu	1055	..	1230	1330	..	1520
Beddgelert	1130	1215	1300	..	1540	1550
Croesor	..	1240	..	..	1605	..
Porthmadog	1215	1300	..	..	1620	1630
	£55	£35	£45	£30	£35	£55
days	fr-sa	su-th	tuth+	su-th	su-th	fr-sa
named train	th	gv	tc	gv	ge	ss
Porthmadog	0940	1015	..	1340	..	1415
Croesor	..	1030	..	1355	..	..
Beddgelert	1020	1100	..	1425	1430	1455
Rhyd Ddu	1055	..	1400	..	1455	1525
Waunfawr	1130	..	1425	..	1525	1555
Caernarfon	1205	..	1500	..	1600	1630
	£55	£35	£30	£35	£45	£55

When I was there for the WHR 100 Gala weekend the pm train to Blaenau Ffestiniog did not run on Sundays. Having only one round trip over the full length of the line is not acceptable. There should be two full line trips each operating day. The line seems to be regressing into the pre 1968 Tanybwlch operating model. When one considers the incredible effort put in to get back to Blaenau this is very disappointing.

I am not against the idea of shorter shuttles to Tanybwlch or even Minffordd to cater for families who don't want to commit so much time or even money for a full line trip- but there should be a basic two trains per day full line service.

 

[bramling]

It is even better to join as a life member. I joined the FRS many years ago when it was quite cheap as that gives first class fares. I also joined the WHRS as a life member in 2020 that wasn't so cheap as they had just doubled the life membership rate perhaps because they realised a life time 1st Class season ticket for £1k was a tad cheap.


When I was there for the WHR 100 Gala weekend the pm train to Blaenau Ffestiniog did not run on Sundays. Having only one round trip over the full length of the line is not acceptable. There should be two full line trips each operating day. The line seems to be regressing into the pre 1968 Tanybwlch operating model. When one considers the incredible effort put in to get back to Blaenau this is very disappointing.

I am not against the idea of shorter shuttles to Tanybwlch or even Minffordd to cater for families who don't want to commit so much time or even money for a full line trip- but there should be a basic two trains per day full line service.

I suspect the reason for Tanybwlch is quite simply that the model is causing people to think twice when they see the prices, so it only works by essentially offering a half product that people are prepared to (or are actually able to) pay.

To be honest this situation is pretty depressing considering the effort and determinations past generations put in to allow the railway to return to Blaenau.

 

[geoffk]

Here you go, for what it's worth.
As an avid Blue Peter viewer many years ago, I made my own!
I seem to recall John Noakes did a report on the deviationists building the new tunnel.

days	most	?	?	?	most	?		ww - days not stated, upto 5 trains per day according to demand
named train	ms	ww	ww	ww	ms	ww
Porthmadog	1030	1055	1155	1355	1430	1455
Minfford	1040	1105	1205	1405	1440	1505
Penrhyn	1045	1110	1210	1410	1445	1510
Tan-y-Bwlch	1110	1135	1230	1435	1510	1530
Tanygrisiau	1130	..	..	..	1530	..
Blaenau Ffestiniog	1145	..	..	..	1545	..
	£40	£25	£25	£25	£40	£25		£25.60 for an all day rover in 2019
days	?	most	?	?	?	most
named train	ww	ms	ww	ww	ww	ms
Blaenau Ffestiniog	..	1225	..	..	..	1625
Tanygrisiau	..	1230	..	..	..	1630
Tan-y-Bwlch	1230	1255	1330	1530	1630	1655
Penrhyn	1250	1310	1350	1550	1650	1710
Minfford	1300	1320	1405	1555	1655	1720
Porthmadog	1310	1335	1420	1610	1710	1735
	£25	£40	£25	£25	£25	£40
days	fr-sa	su-th	su-th	tuth+	su-th	fr-sa
named train	ss	gv	ge	tc	gv	th
Caernarfon	1000	..	1130	1230	..	1420
Waunfawr	1030	..	1200	1300	..	1450
Rhyd Ddu	1055	..	1230	1330	..	1520
Beddgelert	1130	1215	1300	..	1540	1550
Croesor	..	1240	..	..	1605	..
Porthmadog	1215	1300	..	..	1620	1630
	£55	£35	£45	£30	£35	£55
days	fr-sa	su-th	tuth+	su-th	su-th	fr-sa
named train	th	gv	tc	gv	ge	ss
Porthmadog	0940	1015	..	1340	..	1415
Croesor	..	1030	..	1355	..	..
Beddgelert	1020	1100	..	1425	1430	1455
Rhyd Ddu	1055	..	1400	..	1455	1525
Waunfawr	1130	..	1425	..	1525	1555
Caernarfon	1205	..	1500	..	1600	1630
	£55	£35	£30	£35	£45	£55

That's better. So you can take a single journey from Porthmadog to Caernarvon at 13.40 on Sunday to Thursday, changing at Beddgelert, but you have to come back by bus. Isn't £55 a return fare though?

 

[Llanigraham]

I suspect the reason for Tanybwlch is quite simply that the model is causing people to think twice when they see the prices, so it only works by essentially offering a half product that people are prepared to (or are actually able to) pay.

To be honest this situation is pretty depressing considering the effort and determinations past generations put in to allow the railway to return to Blaenau.

There is also the fact that there is a very successful and profitable cafe at Tan yr Bwlch, which I understand is being very well patronised by those that use the service.

 

[Chester1]

I spoke to staff in Porthmadog about the current system recently. My impression is they are taking a low risk strategy to ensure the survival of the railway in a challenging environment. Other people have mentioned the problems. One I don't think has been mentioned is coal supply. According to the person I spoke to its not just the high price that is a problem, its receiving sufficient regular deliveries. The timetable in part is based on what they are confident they will have sufficient coal to run. They could run more diesel services but they are less popular.

 

[John Luxton]

I spoke to staff in Porthmadog about the current system recently. My impression is they are taking a low risk strategy to ensure the survival of the railway in a challenging environment. Other people have mentioned the problems. One I don't think has been mentioned is coal supply. According to the person I spoke to its not just the high price that is a problem, its receiving sufficient regular deliveries. The timetable in part is based on what they are confident they will have sufficient coal to run. They could run more diesel services but they are less popular.

Quite a few lines run diesels and the FWHR has the wonderful MOELWYN which doesn't get used as much as it should though does occasionally run on passenger trains.
Much more heritage in MOELWYN than the recent build steam locomotives.

Perhaps the solution should be to run diesels on the shuttles and steam on the full length services? That makes the full length run more of a selling point for those who want steam?

There is also the fact that there is a very successful and profitable cafe at Tan yr Bwlch, which I understand is being very well patronised by those that use the service.

I think there is some truth in that the cafe benefits from the stop over.

But there is nothing to stop passengers just booking to Tanybwlch on a Blaenau bound train and either returning on the same train when it heads back down to Porthmadog or catching a later train.

But of course the FWHR has buffet cars therefore there is potential for on board sales - but I imagine they are much more labour intensive?

Personally given the choice of having refreshments static in a cafe or on the move in a train the on train experience is always the more preferable.

To be honest this situation is pretty depressing considering the effort and determinations past generations put in to allow the railway to return to Blaenau.

100% agree

 

[bramling]

Quite a few lines run diesels and the FWHR has the wonderful MOELWYN which doesn't get used as much as it should though does occasionally run on passenger trains.
Much more heritage in MOELWYN than the recent build steam locomotives.

Perhaps the solution should be to run diesels on the shuttles and steam on the full length services? That makes the full length run more of a selling point for those who want steam?


I think there is some truth in that the cafe benefits from the stop over.

But there is nothing to stop passengers just booking to Tanybwlch on a Blaenau bound train and either returning on the same train when it heads back down to Porthmadog or catching a later train.

But of course the FWHR has buffet cars therefore there is potential for on board sales - but I imagine they are much more labour intensive?

Personally given the choice of having refreshments static in a cafe or on the move in a train the on train experience is always the more preferable.

The cafe always used to do quite well from people stopping off by car.

Part of the attraction of how things were before was the freedom. You turn up, buy a ticket, and do whatever took one’s fancy. One could even call it an experience!

Ooooh, that cafe looks nice, pity we’ve booked the wrong “experience” and are nailed down to our seats for the whole journey to Porthmadog…

 

[Bletchleyite]

The cafe always used to do quite well from people stopping off by car.

Part of the attraction of how things were before was the freedom. You turn up, buy a ticket, and do whatever took one’s fancy. One could even call it an experience!

Ooooh, that cafe looks nice, pity we’ve booked the wrong “experience” and are nailed down to our seats for the whole journey to Porthmadog…

With about 4 trains per day? It needs at least some planning.

 

[bramling]

With about 4 trains per day? It needs at least some planning.

Not disputing that, but there’s a difference between a degree of planning (having a quick look at a leaflet) and being locked down to a seat.

Having said that, I did screw up on the Bluebell Railway some 10 or 15 years ago having somehow misread a timetable and ended up getting off what turned out to be the last train at Horsted Keynes. It’s a rather long walk to Sheffield Park!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not disputing that, but there’s a difference between a degree of planning (having a quick look at a leaflet) and being locked down to a seat.

Having said that, I did screw up on the Bluebell Railway some 10 or 15 years ago having somehow misread a timetable and ended up getting off what turned out to be the last train at Horsted Keynes. It’s a rather long walk to Sheffield Park!

And I'm fairly sure the FfR never allowed standees, so if it was full then you'd not be getting on. OK, it mostly wasn't, but operating lots of spare capacity is costly.

 

[bramling]

And I'm fairly sure the FfR never allowed standees, so if it was full then you'd not be getting on. OK, it mostly wasn't, but operating lots of spare capacity is costly.

Yet somehow we all used to manage pre-Covid.

As I’ve said elsewhere, heritage railways shouldn’t really be planning on exactly matching capacity to demand. This is what happens with Snowdon, and people don’t like it. A heritage railway is supposed to be an enjoyable experience, it isn’t rush hour Thameslink from St Albans, and nor should it be aiming to be. Reconciling this with covering costs is simply something the railways need to manage, rather than trying to offer some kind of Ryanair “experience”.

I remember a few years back (pre Covid) on the V of R they had reduced the length from one day to the next. By the second trip of the day there had been some mess-up with a coach party, and they ended up with the train full to bursting at Aberystwyth. Credit to them, they got an extra carriage out of the shed and attached it, but they still ended up with a few moans on tripadviser about the intervening chaos.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yet somehow we all used to manage pre-Covid.

I think it actually has very little to do with COVID in terms of viability. COVID did make businesses need to think differently about some things, but where they've stuck with them it is because the alternate approach was more viable, not because of a virus most people no longer really care about.

As I’ve said elsewhere, heritage railways shouldn’t really be planning on exactly matching capacity to demand. This is what happens with Snowdon, and people don’t like it. A heritage railway is supposed to be an enjoyable experience, it isn’t rush hour Thameslink from St Albans, and nor should it be aiming to be. Reconciling this with covering costs is simply something the railways need to manage, rather than trying to offer some kind of Ryanair “experience”.

But that doesn't apply to the "compartment sale" concept. For instance if you book for one on the FfR you get exclusive use of a table for two. Given how cramped the FfR is, how isn't that to like? (And on the FfR it's half the price of the same table for two, too!)

 

[bramling]

I think it actually has very little to do with COVID in terms of viability. COVID did make businesses need to think differently about some things, but where they've stuck with them it is because the alternate approach was more viable, not because of a virus most people no longer really care about.

Completely agree it isn’t to do with Covid, that’s just been used as a convenient excuse to being such measures in and retain them. Same with a gate still being closed at my local cemetery.

But that doesn't apply to the "compartment sale" concept. For instance if you book for one on the FfR you get exclusive use of a table for two. Given how cramped the FfR is, how isn't that to like? (And on the FfR it's half the price of the same table for two, too!)

To be honest, if travelling as a pair, I expect four seats, especially on something fairly cramped like the Ffestiniog. In any case I’d be wanting to sit on a different side for the return journey as well (something else which incidentally causes issues on Snowdon).

Much as I like the Ffestiniog, I’m not a great fan of their more modern stock, which I find increasingly bland. The older carriages, either open or compartment, are much better. Indeed their heritage first class compartments are wonderful. Ironically few people seemed to want to use them before the current nonsense started, which I presume was for no other reason than lack of toilet access. Like everything, railways should be offering a mix in order to cater for all tastes.

 

[John Luxton]

The cafe always used to do quite well from people stopping off by car.

Part of the attraction of how things were before was the freedom. You turn up, buy a ticket, and do whatever took one’s fancy. One could even call it an experience!

Ooooh, that cafe looks nice, pity we’ve booked the wrong “experience” and are nailed down to our seats for the whole journey to Porthmadog…

Oh yes I have often gone to Tanybwlch in the car to go to the cafe. Yes the full line trip does put people off going to the cafe - a good point.

My objection to these experiences and the encouragement to prebook is that one might be booking a trip sometime in advance with no information about the weather. I was caught out at the end of last season - drove over to Caernarfon for a trip to Porthmadog. Weather atrocious, but I had booked it, and yes it was a free member's ticket - but I still felt bound to honour the booking and I had also ordered a Pullman Pamper Hamper as I like to make a contribution.

Parked up at Caernarfon, phone went about 40 minutes before departure to inform me that the line was flooded and trains were cancelled - but was informed I could still pick up the contents of the hamper.

I did and then had a miserable drive back to Liverpool. That really did upset me.

Yes, I know things can go wrong - but I would never choose to go out for the day during torrential rain and high winds. It cost me the round trip in fuel and the hamper £25.00 say £50 in all.

I wasn't a happy bunny. Hence my visits to FWHR have been limited this year 1 day of the WHR 100 Gala at Dinas and a return trip to Blaenau.

For over 10 years now I have gone to the Victorian / Bygones Weekend in October and had booked my accommodation for this almost a year ago.

Today I decided rather than a 3 day visit I would go over to Porthmadog on the Friday for one day then spend Saturday and Sunday at Llangollen Railcar Gala.

Fortunately I always book accommodation flexibly and making the change was no problem.

Basically I am voting with my feet until things change - I wont stop going but my regular visits, and they were very regular, are suspended.