First Class 156 up for disposal

[scotraildriver]

What is the reason Scotrail handed it back?

Leasing cost maybe, or has it proven unreliable after it's rebuild?

It certainly never caused me any issues. And given the large number of short formations on the West Highland Line lately we could be doing with it back!

 

[Blindtraveler]

I personally predict that the Scottish 156 fleet is going to go through a bit of a revival and potential expansion if they can't find an entire shed full of sufficiently large hammers to make the HST fleet work properly. A fleet shuffle could then take place we've won five six all of a sudden doing local work real round Edinburgh area again on the remaining bits of diesel, so Scottish government bidding for this might not sound as bizarre as it seems

 

[Ianigsy]

ScotRail bought the 314s outright to save having to pay for unnecessary overhauls, didn’t they?

If it’s in better nick than some of the leased units, it might be worth buying. In some ways it’s a shame that everything seems to be so centralised in Scotland these days, otherwise I could envisage one of the councils taking it on to provide capacity on a rural route.

 

[jonesy3001]

With Northern's new trains coming with first one expected 2028, unless they take 5 years to reach full use (and choose to get rid of the 156s last), they won't have a decade.

Has it been confirmed that northern are getting new trains to replace the 156s, thought it was just the tender?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Has it been confirmed that northern are getting new trains to replace the 156s, thought it was just the tender?

I'd be very surprised if this tender doesn't lead to an order, the 15x must go eventually, the 150s are nearly 40.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What is the reason Scotrail handed it back?

Leasing cost maybe, or has it proven unreliable after it's rebuild?

I suspect that as it was the only unit owned by someone other than the established leasing companies it was a bit of an oddball in the fleet, so once there was a bit of slack in the fleet it would always have been likely to be the first one withdrawn.

If it's mechanically and structurally sound, could there be a use case for Network Rail? As a second inspection unit alongside 950001 perhaps?

 

[43096]

If it's mechanically and structurally sound, could there be a use case for Network Rail? As a second inspection unit alongside 950001 perhaps?

That's by far the most sensible suggestion I have seen so far on here.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That's by far the most sensible suggestion I have seen so far on here.

I was a bit worried it might be considered speculative... (which to be fair it is!).

 

[GusB]

I have to admit that the thread title intrigued me - "First Class" 156 up for Disposal...

Thoughts of a short-formed Royal Scotsman experience quickly went out of the window!

 

[driverd]

That's by far the most sensible suggestion I have seen so far on here.

Could you elaborate as to why you'd think thats likely? I'd suspect its highly unlikely.

Whilst I'm not suggesting a 156 wouldn't be a good fit for the job, NR are well underway with the 153 project and it would require a ground up redesign if they were to suddenly introduce a 156 - specifically thinking about the modifications to the underframe. If you introduce a new type, you'd have to start again with the mods, rather than following a set approach.

Then, of course, you'd have to start looking at route clearance. The 153s are slowly getting more and more clearance and have been modified to achieve this. If you introduced a 156, you'd have to start this lengthy process from scratch.

Given the 156s are heavily used by both Scotrail and Northern and would readily slot into one of these established fleets, I'd argue that, especially because of the PRM mods and modern interior the unit has, it'd find a natural home here. It's quite possible that, just like the tenders seen elsewhere in the country to re-lease an established fleet, this is all part of a process for SR to simply take the unit on a more favourable lease.

But all this said, @43096 do you know something we dont?

 

[1Q18]

I would guess the most likely buyer may be one of the Charter operators - LSL have some 142s in mainline use, a 156 with big windows, table arrangement and plug sockets might find some use for scenic tours.

I wouldn't be shocked to see it being acquired ish speculatively by Network Rail/LORAM or similar for a potential infrastructure monitoring conversions. There's a lot of new ideas floating around and having another unit on hand could be tempting.

 

[skyhigh]

Given the 156s are heavily used by both Scotrail and Northern and would readily slot into one of these established fleets, I'd argue that, especially because of the PRM mods and modern interior the unit has, it'd find a natural home here. It's quite possible that, just like the tenders seen elsewhere in the country to re-lease an established fleet, this is all part of a process for SR to simply take the unit on a more favourable lease.

It's well past that point now. If Scotrail wanted it they have had plenty of opportunity to negotiate lease terms with Brodies.

 

[driverd]

I wouldn't be shocked to see it being acquired ish speculatively by Network Rail/LORAM or similar for a potential infrastructure monitoring conversions. There's a lot of new ideas floating around and having another unit on hand could be tempting.

Why would you go for a 156, though?

Surely it'd make far more sense just to wait a few years longer and take a 150, or if needed imminently, a pair of 153s. Not only would it have commonality with the TRU, bit it also benefits from the go-anywhere nature of the 20m vehicles.

I'm not saying it's impossible by any stretch, I just would be interested in the business case for it, especially considering availability of 153s and future availability of 150s - both of which don't suffer from quite as significant corrosion issues.

 

[43096]

Given the 156s are heavily used by both Scotrail and Northern and would readily slot into one of these established fleets, I'd argue that, especially because of the PRM mods and modern interior the unit has, it'd find a natural home here. It's quite possible that, just like the tenders seen elsewhere in the country to re-lease an established fleet, this is all part of a process for SR to simply take the unit on a more favourable lease.

But this is an outright sale, not a lease. If ScotRail needed it they wouldn’t have off-leased it and then not taken it back on.

Likewise Northern are under DfT control - if they needed it, they could have made a case and leased it.

But all this said, @43096 do you know something we dont?

No, I don’t.

 

[driverd]

But this is an outright sale, not a lease. If ScotRail needed it they wouldn’t have off-leased it and then not taken it back on.

Likewise Northern are under DfT control - if they needed it, they could have made a case and leased it.

Apologies if it wasn't clear - what I was getting at, was that these parties may not wish to pay whatever price Brodies were asking. Thus, Brodies are selling the asset, but that doesn't mean if a ROSCO were prepared to buy and re-lease the asset on more favourable terms, the TOCs wouldn't buy it.

Look at both GWR and Southern who re-tendered for stock they already have on lease - its all about getting the most competitive price available. It's also been seen with various operators selling their owned assets, simply to lease the same asset back.

No, I don’t.

That's fair enough, you seem well informed is all.

 

[1Q18]

Why would you go for a 156, though?

Surely it'd make far more sense just to wait a few years longer and take a 150, or if needed imminently, a pair of 153s. Not only would it have commonality with the TRU, bit it also benefits from the go-anywhere nature of the 20m vehicles.

I'm not saying it's impossible by any stretch, I just would be interested in the business case for it, especially considering availability of 153s and future availability of 150s - both of which don't suffer from quite as significant corrosion issues.

Those are fair points. I wouldn’t say 153s (in terms of the base units rather than the equipment fitted to them) have been tremendously successful for Network Rail in terms of reliability, with at least one route having barred them from being operated as single units, so I could see a two-car unit being tempting from a redundancy point of view. This 156 does also come with the benefit that it already has a CET toilet fitted, for the driver and the on train technicians if it ran with any (the TRU needs OTTs aboard, the 153s don’t). While it is a different design to the TRU and the 153s, it’s similar enough that driver conversion at least wouldn’t take long. I’m not necessarily saying an IM conversion is likely, just that it’s a possibility.

 

[GLC]

ScotRail bought the 314s outright to save having to pay for unnecessary overhauls, didn’t they?

I believe the 314s for sold for a token £1

 

[The_Train]

LSL do seem to like the scenic Scottish routes which would be perfect for this unit. I just can't see how a charter company or heritage line will get much interest in a 156 whilst there are hundreds in service every day

 

[EnchantGaming]

Morning All,

May be of interest to some to note that the first 156 appears to be up for disposal/sale.

The unit in question is 478, owned by Brodie Engineering, Kilmarnock after it was written off in a flood a few years ago And then refurbished by them and leased back to ScotRail.

Said unit has also been off lease with ScotRail for sometime and Brodie have now put it up for auction, starting bid £50k.

478 is the one that was evolved in the derailment on the Kilmarnock line. The unit had to basically be rebuilt, and was just saved from being totalled. So no wonder they are selling it, it’s probably absolutely done for.

 

[D6130]

LSL do seem to like the scenic Scottish routes which would be perfect for this unit.

Yes....but they also like comfortable seats, so that idea would be a non-starter IMHO.

 

[JModulo]

478 is the one that was evolved in the derailment on the Kilmarnock line. The unit had to basically be rebuilt, and was just saved from being totalled. So no wonder they are selling it, it’s probably absolutely done for.

Theres nothing wrong with it in its current condition so not too sure what you are suggesting. It was flooded too, not derailed.

 

[Sun Chariot]

LSL have some 142s in mainline use, a 156 with big windows, table arrangement and plug sockets might find some use for scenic totours.

That conjures images of a "Mexican Bean number 2" for the Oban or Kyle routes.

 

[43096]

478 is the one that was evolved in the derailment on the Kilmarnock line. The unit had to basically be rebuilt, and was just saved from being totalled. So no wonder they are selling it, it’s probably absolutely done for.

One, it was flood damaged, not derailed. Two, after Angel wrote it off, Brodie’s bought it and completely rebuilt it as a demonstrator of their capabilities and then leased it to ScotRail.

So, it’s not absolutely done for”.

 

[Ryry]

When 156503 did a stint at EMR did it ever return to traffic for ScotRail

 

[JModulo]

When 156503 did a stint at EMR did it ever return to traffic for ScotRail

Yes. Returned straight to Scotrail and back to service when they were done with it.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Those are fair points. I wouldn’t say 153s (in terms of the base units rather than the equipment fitted to them) have been tremendously successful for Network Rail in terms of reliability, with at least one route having barred them from being operated as single units, so I could see a two-car unit being tempting from a redundancy point of view. This 156 does also come with the benefit that it already has a CET toilet fitted, for the driver and the on train technicians if it ran with any (the TRU needs OTTs aboard, the 153s don’t). While it is a different design to the TRU and the 153s, it’s similar enough that driver conversion at least wouldn’t take long. I’m not necessarily saying an IM conversion is likely, just that it’s a possibility.

Genuine question; do any of Network Rail's test trains have accessible toilets?

 

[Sun Chariot]

Genuine question; do any of Network Rail's test trains have accessible toilets?

I presume 153376 does. The accessible toilet window is visible on post 4 of this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/loco-hauled-around-havant.250146/

 

[1Q18]

Genuine question; do any of Network Rail's test trains have accessible toilets?

I believe the ex-Caledonian Sleeper Mk2 vehicles do (I don’t work the trains they’re used on so I’m not 100%), although they’re apparently going off hire soon. There’s also at least one Mk2 BSO used as a brake runner which has an accessible toilet from it’s FGW days, but it’s not functional.

 

[43096]

I believe the ex-Caledonian Sleeper Mk2 vehicles do (I don’t work the trains they’re used on so I’m not 100%), although they’re apparently going off hire soon. There’s also at least one Mk2 BSO used as a brake runner which has an accessible toilet from it’s FGW days, but it’s not functional.

They’re not PRM but are CET fitted. NR have acquired a few CET fitted Mark 2 TSOs from DRS, which are presumably to replace the hired ex-sleeper vehicles.

 

[The_Train]

Yes....but they also like comfortable seats, so that idea would be a non-starter IMHO.

Not sure that will put Mr Hosking off considering the funds available to him for these projects. I'd imagine the key thing that would put him off is how much appeal there would be to the market he targets for a ride on a 156, not matter how luxurious he made the inside