First generation units vs Second generation units

[poshbakerloo]

I do remember some first gen DMUs pretty well, even tho I was born in 1990! The 101s ran until 2004 I think. I guess the class 156 is a comparable modern version of the 101 and imo the 156s are much better!

 

[yorksrob]

I do think some sections of the public seem to like any shiny-shiny new things, regardless of how comfortable they might be

 

[poshbakerloo]

I do think some sections of the public seem to like any shiny-shiny new things, regardless of how comfortable they might be

Yeah some people do. But When the new shiny things are warm, quiet (compared to the 1st gen stuff) and don't rattle then it is much better

 

[delt1c]

I do think some sections of the public seem to like any shiny-shiny new things, regardless of how comfortable they might be

1st gen units were an improvement over what they replaced in the 50's and early60's. Much of what they replaced were non gangwayed and possibly even pre grouping, toilets were a luxury. But they were not the most comfortable by the time the 70's came 1st gen units were not the most comfortable way to travel.
They may be nice on preserved lines for short journeys but for anything over 1 hour they were not the ideal form of transport. The heyday of the 1st gen units was the 70's , imagine 2hrs in a 116, bum numb, feet frozen, ears hurting from the noise , nose burning from the fumes. They had their own form of airconditioning, never failed but couldnt be switched of, it worked on the principal that draughts entered through every gap and you could feel it. Sometimes at speed the ride was so bumpy that you couldnt even read a newspaper.

 

[Spagnoletti]

1st Gen. I really like what the seat backs do when the engines are idling.

 

[yorksrob]

They may be nice on preserved lines for short journeys but for anything over 1 hour they were not the ideal form of transport. The heyday of the 1st gen units was the 70's , imagine 2hrs in a 116, bum numb, feet frozen, ears hurting from the noise , nose burning from the fumes. They had their own form of airconditioning, never failed but couldnt be switched of, it worked on the principal that draughts entered through every gap and you could feel it. Sometimes at speed the ride was so bumpy that you couldnt even read a newspaper.

Well, I must admit theres a lot to be said for some modern units. Particularly 158's and I have to admit electrostars - and even the hardy 150's, which provide a very cosy journey to work in the morning. However, I have spent around 28 years of my life travelling regularly on 1st generation units, freguently for journeys of 1 - 2 hours or even more, and I'm afraid I simply don't recognise the picture of horror and discomfort being painted. Admittedly my main experience has been of Southern EMU's and DEMU's together with the 308's, so they may well have been in a better league than some of the 1st gen DMU's around the rest of the country. I remember distictly the pleasure travelling in a compartment with friends, not having difficulty finding a facing seat to avoid cramped legs, ease of luggage storage, comfortable seating (yes - this may have been to accomodate for the ride but I've been on plenty of more modern units with pretty ropey ride but without the mitigating factors). Am I looking through rose tinted spectacles? I've been on a few 13 hr railtours on the things recently to make sure, and no - they really are pretty good to travel on.

 

[Wyvern]

1st Gen. I really like what the seat backs do when the engines are idling.

I used to catch the DMU each weekend in the early sixties into Lincoln St. Marks (I never got used to crossing the ECML at Newark) At each station the idling engines would make the Beclawat window lights vibrate deafeningly.

 

[delt1c]

Well, I must admit theres a lot to be said for some modern units. Particularly 158's and I have to admit electrostars - and even the hardy 150's, which provide a very cosy journey to work in the morning. However, I have spent around 28 years of my life travelling regularly on 1st generation units, freguently for journeys of 1 - 2 hours or even more, and I'm afraid I simply don't recognise the picture of horror and discomfort being painted. Admittedly my main experience has been of Southern EMU's and DEMU's together with the 308's, so they may well have been in a better league than some of the 1st gen DMU's around the rest of the country. I remember distictly the pleasure travelling in a compartment with friends, not having difficulty finding a facing seat to avoid cramped legs, ease of luggage storage, comfortable seating (yes - this may have been to accomodate for the ride but I've been on plenty of more modern units with pretty ropey ride but without the mitigating factors). Am I looking through rose tinted spectacles? I've been on a few 13 hr railtours on the things recently to make sure, and no - they really are pretty good to travel on.

I to wouldnt mind spending 13hr plus on 1st gen or Mk1's, but the railways are there to move the masses, I comute daily in the london area and on my morning train of crush loaded 8 car unit there are probably 3 or less enthusiasts, the units are there to to do a specific job which they do well and ask the rest of the passengers what they prefer an 8 car 317 or 9 car 305 and the majority will go for the 317.
Now compare a 116 or 105 to a 150 or 156 and I will leave it to the individual to make there decision.
As to the other post of what the seat backs of 1st gen DMU's did the vibrations could put a Rampant rabbit to shame (YES).

 

[Moog_1984]

As a Bert Bloggs passenger, then I do prefer "plastics" to the old 101/etc

As an basher of by gone years, 101s were good for breaking down and getting replaced or rescued by freight locos....otherwise to be avoided! Trips back from Ayr or the fife circuit from a loco hauled "bail" back in on a 1st gen were always tedious.

But as an occaisional distraction to have as a replacement set on the west highland line ( non uncommon on Oban's in 1982-4) or the edin-glas where you could, as said above, look out the front ! The run over to Arrochar is absolutely spectacular in a cab ride in a 37, and a comfy seat in a DMU was just as good.

The 1st gen were pretty unreliable but also v. easy to fix and shove out again.

Although I do hate 156s for displacing 37s from the west highland daytime services, generally not bad at what they do.

 

[4SRKT]

I think this is an interesting question. Of course most second generation units are superior to their first generation counterparts, although less quirky or interesting from an enthusiast's POV. This would seem to be an improvement, except that a huge number of second generation units have not replaced first generation ones, but loco-hauled stock. This is clearly not an improvement from a comfort POV from what would have happened had the old hauled stock been replaced by new hauled stock.

 

[Doorslammer]

Having travelled on a 101 at an early age, it has to be a vote for the second generation units. Just my personal preference.

 

[Rugd1022]

Have to say first generation, especially the old AM4's (304's) and AM10's (310's) we had at Rugby.... big comfy seats, generally reliable and I used to love that 'ticking' noise they made. Down the old yard cabin, our green card shunt driver had the bench seat from a 304 as his bed!

Most modern units look alike to me and aren't as comfy as the older stuff. Am I getting old...?

Nidge

 

[yorksrob]

I think this is an interesting question. Of course most second generation units are superior to their first generation counterparts, although less quirky or interesting from an enthusiast's POV. This would seem to be an improvement, except that a huge number of second generation units have not replaced first generation ones, but loco-hauled stock. This is clearly not an improvement from a comfort POV from what would have happened had the old hauled stock been replaced by new hauled stock.

Indeed, although a lot of 1st generation units such as the CIG's, CEP's etc were built with a similar provision for space and comfort as loco hauled stock.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Indeed, although a lot of 1st generation units such as the CIG's, CEP's etc were built with a similar provision for space and comfort as loco hauled stock.

I think the CIGs, CEPs etc... were 2nd or 3rd generation units. 1st Gen eration units were LBSCR overhead units? than the SRs SUBs, CIT, NOLs, BEL were 2nd and than the CEPs VEPs etc were 3rd Generation units.?

 

[ChrisCooper]

Strictly First Generation and Second Generation only applies to DMUs anyway, as there was a generation gap. As a personal example, first generation DMUs were introduced around the time when my parents were born, second generation DMUs started coming into service the year I was born. As has already been said, most second generation types, especially the "popular" types like 156s and 158s, replaced hauled stock, not 1st gen DMUs. A large chunk of the 1st gen DMU fleet was withdrawn due to closures of the lines they worked, and many others were replaced due to electrification. Pacers were really the 1st generation DMU replacements, with 150s also filling that role (although they were originally more for loco hauled replacement than anything).
EMUs have never really had a generation gap, and production has been near constant. If both hauled stock and EMUs are considered, production of Mk1s, Mk2s, Mk3s and Mk4s overlapped (last Mk1s were built in 1974, the VEPs, first Mk2s were built in the 60s, last Mk2s in 1978, 312s, first production Mk3s 1975, first Mk4s were built in the late 80s, Mk3 EMUs were still being built in the 90s). The two technological leaps in terms of EMUs were the electropnumatic brake and AC traction, so if anything EPBs onwards are second generation, Networkers onwards third generation. Sliding doors were nothing, the 502s and 503s had them in the 30s.

 

[yorksrob]

I think the CIGs, CEPs etc... were 2nd or 3rd generation units. 1st Gen eration units were LBSCR overhead units? than the SRs SUBs, CIT, NOLs, BEL were 2nd and than the CEPs VEPs etc were 3rd Generation units.?

Yes indeed - it's all very confusing as we've had units on the Southern for so long

I was trying to go with the flow of the thread which seems to be to consider the current generation of units as secong generation and BR slam door style units as 1st.

From a strictly Southern point of view though, I've never really counted the LBSCR overheads at all as they were a different traction system. I've always counted it as:

1st gen: pre-Bullied SUBS, NOL's, PAN's, PUL's, BIL's COR's and HAL's,
2nd gen: Bullied SUB's, EPB's, CEP's, HAP's, CIG's, VEP's, REP's, TC's.
3rd gen: 455's, Networkers, Wessex Electrics, Electrostars and all the rest of em.

 

[sprinterguy]

Second generation units, definitely. 156 rules all for me. Though I admit that frst generation units had more character, that doesn't substitute for a faster, quieter journey on a "Sprinter" instead of a 117 on the Stratford line.

Interesting point that, second generation DMUs did replace a lot of loco hauled services, and I for one would much rather settle for a 47 and a full mark 2 rake Newcastle to Manchester than the current 185s, but that's besides the point here lest I get sidetracked.

I see the Turbostars and other 21st century DMUs as "generation 2.5". Third generation will be whatever replaces the Sprinter and Pacer generation units outright.

 

[Moog_1984]

Interesting point that, second generation DMUs did replace a lot of loco hauled services, and I for one would much rather settle for a 47 and a full mark 2 rake Newcastle to Manchester than the current 185s, but that's besides the point here lest I get sidetracked.

I see the Turbostars and other 21st century DMUs as "generation 2.5". Third generation will be whatever replaces the Sprinter and Pacer generation units outright.

Blotrail reintroduced , was it 57s, on mark 1s a couple of years ago!

Why did they do this ? 158 problems or refurbishment programme for all the 15xs?

I never knew they were still churning out Mrk1 stock in the 70s! mark one compo's behind a "roarer"...ah dem was the days

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Yes indeed - it's all very confusing as we've had units on the Southern for so long

I was trying to go with the flow of the thread which seems to be to consider the current generation of units as secong generation and BR slam door style units as 1st.

From a strictly Southern point of view though, I've never really counted the LBSCR overheads at all as they were a different traction system. I've always counted it as:

1st gen: pre-Bullied SUBS, NOL's, PAN's, PUL's, BIL's COR's and HAL's,
2nd gen: Bullied SUB's, EPB's, CEP's, HAP's, CIG's, VEP's, REP's, TC's.
3rd gen: 455's, Networkers, Wessex Electrics, Electrostars and all the rest of em.

Now you put it like that its quite true!

 

[ChrisCooper]

Blotrail reintroduced , was it 57s, on mark 1s a couple of years ago!

Why did they do this ? 158 problems or refurbishment programme for all the 15xs?

I never knew they were still churning out Mrk1 stock in the 70s! mark one compo's behind a "roarer"...ah dem was the days

The last CIGs were built in 1970, but VEPs were built up to 1974, over 10 years after the last hauled Mk1s were built (and the same year the last hauled Mk2s were built), so yes Mk1s were still churning out into the 70s for the Southern Region. VEPs were the last Mk1 design, not actually being introduced until the late 60s, after Mk2 hauled stock and the Mk2 based 310 EMUs had started being introduced.

 

[d.collins26]

Class 205s, 207s and Southern Electric Slammers for the WIN!!!

 

[D6975]

I'd prefer to travel one one of the 1st generation units that were designed for longer runs.
Class 123/124 were a cut above the average and had bigger engines too, so were quite sprightly compared to 101s etc.
Electric wise, the Clacton 309s were nice to travel in too, internally they were just like a mk1 open.
Not strictly an EMU as it isn't powered, but a 4TC was a pleasant environment to travel in, especially if it was one that had full tables rather than the little ledges.

 

[4SRKT]

I'd prefer to travel one one of the 1st generation units that were designed for longer runs.
Class 123/124 were a cut above the average and had bigger engines too, so were quite sprightly compared to 101s etc.
Electric wise, the Clacton 309s were nice to travel in too, internally they were just like a mk1 open.
Not strictly an EMU as it isn't powered, but a 4TC was a pleasant environment to travel in, especially if it was one that had full tables rather than the little ledges.

Also a TC had no engine noise at all, not even the whine of an EMU. Plus if you were on one, there was a good chance that a class 33 would be providing the power. My lordz!

Has anyone mentioned the mighty thumpers yet? As you can see from my avatar, these are very dear to my heart. Would you count the Mk IIb bodied 80 class DEMUs from Northern Ireland Railways as first generation? They're certainly a cut above SR thumpers in terms of style and comfort (and, if truth be told, a cut above the later 455-bodied 450 class thumpers still in daily use on the Larne and Portrush lines).

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Class 205s, 207s and Southern Electric Slammers for the WIN!!!

Agreed.

 

[yorksrob]

They're certainly a cut above SR thumpers in terms of style and comfort .

Ever the controversialist

 

[4SRKT]

Ever the controversialist

Well, perhaps not more comfortable than Hastings line sets (although they have a better ride on B5 bogies)! I was thinking of 205s etc.