First Greater Glasgow

[Tom Gallacher]

Just back in from dog walking. 2 deckers passed me, one heading into town and the other towards Clydebank. Typical

 

[route101]

Funny you say that, have just passed the 6 terminus. With 2 there and a third and fourh heading there. Although to he fair they fair they dont always work on the 6 these days

I find with the 6 you get the low heights in bunches all heading the same way. The heady days for the route were 2007 when there was Busby to City Centre short workings and Caledonia Buses, every 5 minute service.

 

[PaulMc7]

From what I've seen from yesterday and today there are more double deckers than there has been recently on the 6. There has been a couple of days where I had seen 5 or 6 of them on the 2 just going to work and back. I think the 6 badly needs a route split going by the passenger loads I've seen. The southside part of the route is getting busier again but the north side could be dropped to every 20 mins with the lack of loadings I've seen lately.

The worrying thing for First just now definitely has to be the lack of a bounce back in off peak travel compared to peak time especially the evening peak. The morning peak actually doesn't seem that busy even just before the schools finished for the holidays but time will tell whether it continues to be quiet when the schools go back.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

From what I've seen from yesterday and today there are more double deckers than there has been recently on the 6. There has been a couple of days where I had seen 5 or 6 of them on the 2 just going to work and back. I think the 6 badly needs a route split going by the passenger loads I've seen. The southside part of the route is getting busier again but the north side could be dropped to every 20 mins with the lack of loadings I've seen lately.

The worrying thing for First just now definitely has to be the lack of a bounce back in off peak travel compared to peak time especially the evening peak. The morning peak actually doesn't seem that busy even just before the schools finished for the holidays but time will tell whether it continues to be quiet when the schools go back.

Deckers are also now making an appearance on the 9/A a Gemini and a 41 branded decker

 

[PaulMc7]

Deckers are also now making an appearance on the 9/A a Gemini and a 41 branded decker

I've seen buses from the 41 on the 9/9A a few times now. I've also noted that the gold E400 MMC is on the 88/88A a lot too now.

 

[Rory N]

There seems to be a batch of second hand E200’s at Caledonia. Does anyone know where they are going?

 

[JumpinTrainz]

I understand frequencies have been cut in Glasgow but I’m wondering if branding is going to start being restricted to just a handful of routes. The 240 branding is slowly being changed to just 'Lanarkshire connect', no new E200EVs have been branded for the 34/34A, 65 or the 61 (three routes which were previously branded). The 241 and 254 E200MMCs have started to see branding removed. Some E300s have started to be debranded for the 2. I wonder if the plan going forward will just be the new urban livery on its own.

 

[PaulMc7]

I understand frequencies have been cut in Glasgow but I’m wondering if branding is going to start being restricted to just a handful of routes. The 240 branding is slowly being changed to just 'Lanarkshire connect', no new E200EVs have been branded for the 34/34A, 65 or the 61 (three routes which were previously branded). The 241 and 254 E200MMCs have started to see branding removed. Some E300s have started to be debranded for the 2. I wonder if the plan going forward will just be the new urban livery on its own.

I'd prefer that to be fair. Even the 1s have branded buses for the 2 so it's possible for a 1, 2 and 6 all to come together and all be branded for the 2. It might be beneficial for the avoidance of passenger confusion. If they stuck to the routes they're branded for it wouldn't be an issue to have a lot of branded buses but everything ends up on everything these days.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

I'd prefer that to be fair. Even the 1s have branded buses for the 2 so it's possible for a 1, 2 and 6 all to come together and all be branded for the 2. It might be beneficial for the avoidance of passenger confusion. If they stuck to the routes they're branded for it wouldn't be an issue to have a lot of branded buses but everything ends up on everything these days.

Route branding is good in theory and it certainly makes the urban livery look more complete. Glasgow have tried it before during the Overground days but the same thing happened in that buses ended up way off route. It’s got worse since Covid as more deckers were required across the network. It hasn’t helped that Glasgow is seeing a lot of new stock and there has been a lot of fleet movement since even 2018 when the new E400MMCs arrived. Many routes which saw new stock have since seen more new stock and the branded buses have been cascaded on to different routes making the branding ineffective.

I feel like Glasgow has so many buses it’s extremely difficult to get them all out of the depot and on to each specific route. Particularly at Caledonia depot where 3 depots have been merged into one. I think a more uniform livery would work better. I also imagine it would save a lot of money. It can’t be cheap to be constantly repainting buses every few months. First transfer their buses around too much to have local liveries.

 

[PaulMc7]

Route branding is good in theory and it certainly makes the urban livery look more complete. Glasgow have tried it before during the Overground days but the same thing happened in that buses ended up way off route. It’s got worse since Covid as more deckers were required across the network. It hasn’t helped that Glasgow is seeing a lot of new stock and there has been a lot of fleet movement since even 2018 when the new E400MMCs arrived. Many routes which saw new stock have since seen more new stock and the branded buses have been cascaded on to different routes making the branding ineffective.

I feel like Glasgow has so many buses it’s extremely difficult to get them all out of the depot and on to each specific route. Particularly at Caledonia depot where 3 depots have been merged into one. I think a more uniform livery would work better. I also imagine it would save a lot of money. It can’t be cheap to be constantly repainting buses every few months. First transfer their buses around too much to have local liveries.

I fully agree regarding local liveries. If they even just agreed on one for all 3 Scottish operations it would maybe help a bit. I personally like the dark blue of the South and Central Scotland operations most.

The other issue with branding is that Covid has forced so many changes it makes the branding inaccurate. The 34A for example doesn't even exist now. To keep it up to date is an impossible task because all services will probably need some sort of change over the next 18-24 months whether that's route or frequency depending on what the Covid bounceback is like.

 

[route101]

I fully agree regarding local liveries. If they even just agreed on one for all 3 Scottish operations it would maybe help a bit. I personally like the dark blue of the South and Central Scotland operations most.

The other issue with branding is that Covid has forced so many changes it makes the branding inaccurate. The 34A for example doesn't even exist now. To keep it up to date is an impossible task because all services will probably need some sort of change over the next 18-24 months whether that's route or frequency depending on what the Covid bounceback is like.

I don't know if you have been to other parts of the First UK empire, they have local liveries. I wonder if Glasgow would have a distinctive local livery ? The 3 branding has to be one that never saw much action on the 3.

 

[Rory N]

I understand frequencies have been cut in Glasgow but I’m wondering if branding is going to start being restricted to just a handful of routes. The 240 branding is slowly being changed to just 'Lanarkshire connect', no new E200EVs have been branded for the 34/34A, 65 or the 61 (three routes which were previously branded). The 241 and 254 E200MMCs have started to see branding removed. Some E300s have started to be debranded for the 2. I wonder if the plan going forward will just be the new urban livery on its own.

I like the idea of Route branding but I also understand that first don’t particularly do it in the right way. I think routes that have recently got new EV’s will keep the route branding. Routes like the 75, 38, 9/9A, 7 and they might keep the one brand. Other than that I think every other routes will be de-branded.

 

[ScotRail158725]

I fully agree regarding local liveries. If they even just agreed on one for all 3 Scottish operations it would maybe help a bit. I personally like the dark blue of the South and Central Scotland operations most.

3 different operations is a completely different scenario to route branding, the liveries in Scotland dont need merged

 

[PaulMc7]

3 different operations is a completely different scenario to route branding, the liveries in Scotland dont need merged

When you have as many fleet movements as First do, merging them absolutely would help.

 

[ScotRail158725]

When you have as many fleet movements as First do, merging them absolutely would help.

That’s part of the package of running a nationwide operation. Vehicles will get painted every so often so having liveries for individual areas and nationwide does nothing other than alter when a bus might get a freshen up

 

[PaulMc7]

That’s part of the package of running a nationwide operation. Vehicles will get painted every so often so having liveries for individual areas and nationwide does nothing other than alter when a bus might get a freshen up

First's problem is the lack of freshening up a lot of buses. If done right the buses would have been debranded when transferred between operations or even depots within the same operation and more buses would see new seats and better maintenance across the board. Some of the E300s have had fairly damaged seats for 2-3 years now for example.

Yes, that costs money but it'll be worth it given that being presented with poor quality does make people switch away from buses.

 

[computerSaysNo]

3 different operations is a completely different scenario to route branding, the liveries in Scotland dont need merged

When you have as many fleet movements as First do, merging them absolutely would help.

That’s part of the package of running a nationwide operation. Vehicles will get painted every so often so having liveries for individual areas and nationwide does nothing other than alter when a bus might get a freshen up

First's problem is the lack of freshening up a lot of buses. If done right the buses would have been debranded when transferred between operations or even depots within the same operation and more buses would see new seats and better maintenance across the board. Some of the E300s have had fairly damaged seats for 2-3 years now for example.

Yes, that costs money but it'll be worth it given that being presented with poor quality does make people switch away from buses.

First and Stagecoach are the big operators in Scotland so that's what I'm familiar with, having lived in Scotland all my life. The major feature which differentiates the two (in Scotland) (that I can see) is that Stagecoach run one big contiguous, geographically-huge network (even if it is split into divisions, they all run the same stock with the same livery, etc), whereas First run geographically small, geographically isolated operations mostly within the cities (Aberdeen, Stirling, Glasgow), and comparing city-by-city the use of different liveries makes the operation seem a bit disjointed; is this mostly the case with First in England/Wales too (ignoring the country of London)?
Similar to with Stagecoach, if First had one single nation-wide livery it would make transferring vehicles easier and cheaper.

That said, I am a big fan of the execution of the route branding in Glasgow, I think the application of loud, bold colours at the front of the vehicles looks really good.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

First's problem is the lack of freshening up a lot of buses. If done right the buses would have been debranded when transferred between operations or even depots within the same operation and more buses would see new seats and better maintenance across the board. Some of the E300s have had fairly damaged seats for 2-3 years now for example.

Yes, that costs money but it'll be worth it given that being presented with poor quality does make people switch away from buses.

First have always been very poor when it comes to fleet presentation. I’d say it’s worse in FSE where buses are internally and externally tired not to mention in 3 different liveries and have been for years.

A mid-life refurbishment programme would really help First if they are going to keep buses running 16+ years. The B7TLs and B7RLEs were in a terrible mess for many years and the E300s are looking very tired internally now.

 

[PaulMc7]

First have always been very poor when it comes to fleet presentation. I’d say it’s worse in FSE where buses are internally and externally tired not to mention in 3 different liveries and have been for years.

A mid-life refurbishment programme would really help First if they are going to keep buses running 16+ years. The B7TLs and B7RLEs were in a terrible mess for many years and the E300s are looking very tired internally now.

If First think they can drag out 18 years of some buses like they have with some of the 54 plate double deckers then ideally you'd get 2 refurbs in that time, once after 6 years then another after 12. That's probably the best way to avoid buses looking as tired as some have lately.

On another note, what services to people realistically think could be dropped in frequency? A lot of what I see has been so hit or miss with passenger loads.

 

[Brimfulofasha]

I like the idea of Route branding but I also understand that first don’t particularly do it in the right way. I think routes that have recently got new EV’s will keep the route branding. Routes like the 75, 38, 9/9A, 7 and they might keep the one brand. Other than that I think every other routes will be de-branded.

Surely it would make sense only to brand enough vehicles to cover the minimum requirement (e.g. a Sunday service) and use unbranded vehicles for the remainder. Would that not make it easier to organise? I've already seen the 38/75 branded EVs on other routes. I know it has been said here before 'just look at the destination box' but using them regularly on 'the wrong routes' totally defeats the purpose of route-branding in my opinion.

Also, this is the second time the 38/75 have been given new vehicles. Just wondering what the thinking is behind that, are they the most profitable routes? I remember actually feeling privileged during the first lockdown that my random 57/87s were replaced with 38/75 E400MMCs!

 

[Volvodart]

It was probably just that they were the most suitable routes for electric buses and diesel buses would have gone elsewhere.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

If First think they can drag out 18 years of some buses like they have with some of the 54 plate double deckers then ideally you'd get 2 refurbs in that time, once after 6 years then another after 12. That's probably the best way to avoid buses looking as tired as some have lately.

On another note, what services to people realistically think could be dropped in frequency? A lot of what I see has been so hit or miss with passenger loads.

A number of Leyland Leopards and Leyland Tigers new to the Scottish Bus Group and Leyland Atlanteans and Volvo Ailsas new to GGPTE/Strathclyde's Buses managed 20+ years of passenger carrying service as they were very good buses. Some of these types were inherited by the big groups for further service (except the LAs as they were binned fairly quickly) following takeover and I don't recall many of them being refurbished. You'll find that very few buses throughout the industry are refurbished and that includes Lothian's.

 

[92002]

I'd prefer that to be fair. Even the 1s have branded buses for the 2 so it's possible for a 1, 2 and 6 all to come together and all be branded for the 2. It might be beneficial for the avoidance of passenger confusion. If they stuck to the routes they're branded for it wouldn't be an issue to have a lot of branded buses but everything ends up on everything these days.

Interesting, while waiting on a 2 at Partick earlier. We had five 2 branded E300s. 2 on the 2, 1 on a 3, 1 on an 8 and another on a 90.. The natives were becoming quite confused. Of course it does pay to read the destination. Not the side of the bus

For the c20 minutes that I waited for the 2. We had three 3s following each other,
followed by three 2s. All in around the space of 5 minutes. Causing total chaos in the bus station. Really is time we had a Partick based service manager.

 

[PaulMc7]

Interesting, while waiting on a 2 at Partick earlier. We had five 2 branded E300s. 2 on the 2, 1 on a 3, 1 on an 8 and another on a 90.. The natives were becoming quite confused. Of course it does pay to read the destination. Not the side of the bus

For the c20 minutes that I waited for the 2. We had three 3s following each other,
followed by three 2s. All in around the space of 5 minutes. Causing total chaos in the bus station. Really is time we had a Partick based service manager.

It's started to be like that practically every day in Partick to be quite honest. Bunching seems to be worse than it's ever been with the 2 and 3. They need to find a way for concession and the under 22 passes to scan on like the tap on tap off does after the first single. It would speed up boarding so much. The ticket machines work far more slowly than Mcgills and Stagecoach from experience and even 5 seconds a passenger more quickly adds up on very busy routes.

On another note, Scotstoun depot finally seems to have the cancellation feature almost fully up and running. All services except the X4 from what I've seen have shown cancellations on the app today at one point or another. Hopefully the full Greater Glasgow network has it sooner rather than later.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the driver shortages and in a different universe hypothetically speaking, had Glasgow brought back trams and revised some bus routes to feed into the tram system (similar to the Tyne & Wear Metro), would the driver shortage have been so bad or not much difference?

I am unsure how the buses and Manchester Metrolink have fared with driver shortages as a comparison - are there any posters in the GM area that can give a brief overview as to how the buses and trams have coped there?

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Regarding the driver shortages and in a different universe hypothetically speaking, had Glasgow brought back trams and revised some bus routes to feed into the tram system (similar to the Tyne & Wear Metro), would the driver shortage have been so bad or not much difference?

I am unsure how the buses and Manchester Metrolink have fared with driver shortages as a comparison - are there any posters in the GM area that can give a brief overview as to how the buses and trams have coped there?

Who would be driving the trams?

 

[GusB]

Anyone wishing to speculate about how trams would have worked in Glasgow should do so in the Speculative Discussion section of the forum; it's off-topic here.

Thanks

 

[PaulMc7]

Does anyone know when the cancellation feature on the app will be fully operative across all depots in the Greater Glasgow operating area now that Scotstoun has it? Interestingly, it's also being used for services affected by roadworks in the Gorbals just now too and was used for the 7/7A, 71A and 75 when Possil Road was closed last week.

 

[Falcon1200]

Automated message heard 4 (four !) times on a 77 between Braehead and Partick today; 'Unless exempt, wearing a face mask is a condition of travel on all public transport'. No, actually, it is not, and hasn't been for several months. Maybe time for an upgrade, First ?

 

[PaulMc7]

Automated message heard 4 (four !) times on a 77 between Braehead and Partick today; 'Unless exempt, wearing a face mask is a condition of travel on all public transport'. No, actually, it is not, and hasn't been for several months. Maybe time for an upgrade, First ?

Some of the E400 MMCs for the 38 still have it too every single time they stop. I feel for the social media team to be fair because it has been pointed out to them a few times but whether the depots actually listen to any feedback is another matter.