First Greater Glasgow

[route101]

Big mistake if first have bought the single deckers for the 2, myself i am fed up been packed on like sardines in a can at peak times, will drive customers away from being uncomfertable

They tend to order singles. E300s and the Eclipses, perhaps singles are cheaper, I am not an expert on this.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

I’d have thought in a post-Covid world and given the chop in frequency that First would be opting for deckers over singles for the 2. Since the pandemic started - the route has been run with predominantly deckers.

Perhaps the 77 might see new E400EVs which will allow the current E400MMCs (which are also being used on the 2) to cascade and work between the 2 and 3 routes alongside the new E200EVs? Most routes aren’t converting to fully electric so I don’t imagine a long route like the 2 and 3 would be either. Maybe they’re going for a mix of modern diesel deckers and new EVs. That’ll allow for some other Scotstoun routes to see some electric too. Just a theory though

 

[Jarcoed]

I’d have thought in a post-Covid world and given the chop in frequency that First would be opting for deckers over singles for the 2. Since the pandemic started - the route has been run with predominantly deckers.

Perhaps the 77 might see new E400EVs which will allow the current E400MMCs (which are also being used on the 2) to cascade and work between the 2 and 3 routes alongside the new E200EVs? Most routes aren’t converting to fully electric so I don’t imagine a long route like the 2 and 3 would be either. Maybe they’re going for a mix of modern diesel deckers and new EVs. That’ll allow for some other Scotstoun routes to see some electric too. Just a theory though

That would make sense, and I do hope that to be the case for the 2 and 3 at least. I don't see the 77 is getting Enviro400EV's anytime soon but they would suit it, they would just need to be long enough for a suitable capacity and luggage rack space.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I’d have thought in a post-Covid world and given the chop in frequency that First would be opting for deckers over singles for the 2. Since the pandemic started - the route has been run with predominantly deckers.

Perhaps the 77 might see new E400EVs which will allow the current E400MMCs (which are also being used on the 2) to cascade and work between the 2 and 3 routes alongside the new E200EVs? Most routes aren’t converting to fully electric so I don’t imagine a long route like the 2 and 3 would be either. Maybe they’re going for a mix of modern diesel deckers and new EVs. That’ll allow for some other Scotstoun routes to see some electric too. Just a theory though

It may be a theory to you but in reality it's a logistics nightmare on how the depot operates. I'll explain.

The company, as we have been taught for ages, does not have enough drivers for service work, let alone finding someone to swap out an electric bus for a diesel one when it runs out of charge. At Caledonia Depot, bus boards have even been cut short at night because there has been no one to change a bus over to a diesel model.

It's happened on the 9 route plenty of times and I can only assume the 75, 38 & then the 2 & 3 as well, when they go electric, will run into the same problem.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

It may be a theory to you but in reality it's a logistics nightmare on how the depot operates. I'll explain.

The company, as we have been taught for ages, does not have enough drivers for service work, let alone finding someone to swap out an electric bus for a diesel one when it runs out of charge. At Caledonia Depot, bus boards have even been cut short at night because there has been no one to change a bus over to a diesel model.

It's happened on the 9 route plenty of times and I can only assume the 75, 38 & then the 2 & 3 as well, when they go electric, will run into the same problem.

I’m not disputing the practicalities of it but what I’m saying is that if First are doing it for routes at Caledonia then Scotstoun will be no different. I’m not saying it’s right but it’s the reality.

That would make sense, and I do hope that to be the case for the 2 and 3 at least. I don't see the 77 is getting Enviro400EV's anytime soon but they would suit it, they would just need to be long enough for a suitable capacity and luggage rack space.

As far as I believe the E400EV demonstrator was tested on the 77 but I’m not sure what the outcome was. It would be a good route for them as it’s a relatively short route with a straight road and minimal hills. It would add some electric to the QEUH with the 34 already seeing E200EVs. The luggage racks were a nice addition but I don’t think they are essential. I’d be interested to know how many people actually use the 77 for the airport.

The 77 also has a good enough frequency to merit the E400EVs. I think they’d manage well capacity wise. It would make sense.

 

[PaulMc7]

Are there any electric buses both single and double out there on the market that can match the current maximum capacities for diesel vehicles? Some E400 MMCs have 78 seats and even the E400s have 77. In a time where less buses should be the aim with a good capacity still on offer it's quite worrying how every electric option First go for has less seats than a diesel counterpart. With the single deckers it's only 1 seat to be fair but with the doubles it's at least 5 (74 minimum on diesel vs 69 on the electrics.)

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

It may be a theory to you but in reality it's a logistics nightmare on how the depot operates. I'll explain.

The company, as we have been taught for ages, does not have enough drivers for service work, let alone finding someone to swap out an electric bus for a diesel one when it runs out of charge. At Caledonia Depot, bus boards have even been cut short at night because there has been no one to change a bus over to a diesel model.

It's happened on the 9 route plenty of times and I can only assume the 75, 38 & then the 2 & 3 as well, when they go electric, will run into the same problem.

This just screams of poor planning from First and a total lack of use of technology. I was the the McGill's open day and their telematics guy was explaining how they constantly monitor their buses remotely. If a bus is using more battery than expected, or is just running low they will get the bus swapped out by contacting the driver and either getting him to divert in to a depot on his run or to meet a engineer or other staff member with a charged bus at a set point.

They get updates from every bus every 15 seconds and can monitor 1000s of parameters; everything from the passenger lights to the revs of the engine (in diesel buses).

They can also live stream every bus camera in the depot - the driver cam and a front facing dashboard cam.

If First invested in technology and staffed the back end, lots of these issues would be much more manageable.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Are there any electric buses both single and double out there on the market that can match the current maximum capacities for diesel vehicles? Some E400 MMCs have 78 seats and even the E400s have 77. In a time where less buses should be the aim with a good capacity still on offer it's quite worrying how every electric option First go for has less seats than a diesel counterpart. With the single deckers it's only 1 seat to be fair but with the doubles it's at least 5 (74 minimum on diesel vs 69 on the electrics.)

An Enviro 200 MMC, for example has a 220 litre fuel tank and averages say 10mpg, convert 220litres to UK gallons gets you 48.39gallons, times the 10mpg with 48.39gallons gets you roughly 480miles of range with diesel.

No, there is no Electric Bus on the market which comes close.

 

[PaulMc7]

An Enviro 200 MMC, for example has a 220 litre fuel tank and averages say 10mpg, convert 220litres to UK gallons gets you 48.39gallons, times the 10mpg with 48.39gallons gets you roughly 480miles of range with diesel.

No, there is no Electric Bus on the market which comes close.

Thanks for the info. I do think electric buses can be good but another diesel order was definitely needed from somewhere. Electricity prices and diesel are still remarkably high so cost either way was going to be an issue. The problem is that a lot of routes will definitely struggle with what is currently on offer on the electric front.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

This just screams of poor planning from First and a total lack of use of technology. I was the the McGill's open day and their telematics guy was explaining how they constantly monitor their buses remotely. If a bus is using more battery than expected, or is just running low they will get the bus swapped out by contacting the driver and either getting him to divert in to a depot on his run or to meet a engineer or other staff member with a charged bus at a set point.

They get updates from every bus every 15 seconds and can monitor 1000s of parameters; everything from the passenger lights to the revs of the engine (in diesel buses).

They can also live stream every bus camera in the depot - the driver cam and a front facing dashboard cam.

If First invested in technology and staffed the back end, lots of these issues would be much more manageable.

I’ll assume that these will be subscription cloud-based working directly from engine manufacturers.

For engine revs to be monitored they’d need direct access to cloud based systems by Mercedes or Cummins, Cummins do have a system like this, I can only assume Mercedes will be the same.

Yutong does offer a cloud based system as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2022 ==

Thanks for the info. I do think electric buses can be good but another diesel order was definitely needed from somewhere. Electricity prices and diesel are still remarkably high so cost either way was going to be an issue. The problem is that a lot of routes will definitely struggle with what is currently on offer on the electric front.

Which is why I’m still an advocate for Hybrid-diesel, especially geo-fenced hybrids which use smaller battery packs but can in most cases run in zero-emission mode for those emission hot spot areas like city centre.

Let’s not forget there hasn’t been nearly as much pressure applied to private motoring by petrol or diesel power compared with that of bus operators.

It’s true about the high cost of Energy and Oil, however, recently we’ve seen fuel prices come down somewhat where as electricty cost have not came down and are now frozen.

Reassessing Self-charge hybrids because of these related costs is a worth while consideration, Volvos latest B5LH(Now named B5L S-Charge) now has more miles available to it for engine off operation as well as gaining higher speeds before its engine has to assist.

 

[VioletEclipse]

I don't know if this is the right place for this, but one of my friends needs to find a network map of all bus routes in Glasgow (all operators in one map, First, McGill's and the rest). Greater Glasgow rather than Glasgow City. I thought people here might know where to find a map like that.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I don't know if this is the right place for this, but one of my friends needs to find a network map of all bus routes in Glasgow (all operators in one map, First, McGill's and the rest). Greater Glasgow rather than Glasgow City. I thought people here might know where to find a map like that.

The "network map" on the First Glasgow website sort of (very "sort of") had that, although for other operators it was very poor and it seems to have been taken down now. I've got a downloaded copy of it if you want me to post it.
The Lanarkshire Area map sort of has this too (still available, address below) but again it's very poor with showing other operators and it is out of date.
I'm working on a diagrammatic map to show what you describe but I'm only in the City area so far, I haven't made it as far as the suburbs yet.

I'm unsure if McGill's still have maps? I couldn't seem to find them on the website last time I checked.
I couldn't see any on the SPT site either.
The ones on the West Coast Motors site only show their own services, if I remember correctly.

Link to the maps on the First site:

Network maps

Greater Glasgow - Network Maps Welcome to your First Bus Greater Glasgow network maps. Here, you can find Glasgow bus routes, in order to plan your journey across Glasgow more effectively and in advance. Whether you need to catch the number 9 to Glasgow city centre, or the 77 to the airport...

www.firstbus.co.uk

 

[VioletEclipse]

The "network map" on the First Glasgow website sort of (very "sort of") had that, although for other operators it was very poor and it seems to have been taken down now. I've got a downloaded copy of it if you want me to post it.
The Lanarkshire Area map sort of has this too (still available, address below) but again it's very poor with showing other operators and it is out of date.
I'm working on a diagrammatic map to show what you describe but I'm only in the City area so far, I haven't made it as far as the suburbs yet.

I'm unsure if McGill's still have maps? I couldn't seem to find them on the website last time I checked.
I couldn't see any on the SPT site either.
The ones on the West Coast Motors site only show their own services, if I remember correctly.

Link to the maps on the First site:

Network maps

Greater Glasgow - Network Maps Welcome to your First Bus Greater Glasgow network maps. Here, you can find Glasgow bus routes, in order to plan your journey across Glasgow more effectively and in advance. Whether you need to catch the number 9 to Glasgow city centre, or the 77 to the airport...

www.firstbus.co.uk

Hi thanks so much for the reply!

If you would be able to post the downloaded copy you have then that would be very much appreciated.

The Lanarkshire map is slightly better, but yeah no decent Glasgow network map for some reason.
The diagrammatic map sounds cool! The size of greater Glasgow compared to Glasgow City would make a good map more difficult I'd think.

As per the other companies, that's a bit of a shame but unsurprising. I think companies undervalue the usefulness of network diagram maps.

Once again thanks so much

 

[computerSaysNo]

Hi thanks so much for the reply!

If you would be able to post the downloaded copy you have then that would be very much appreciated.

The Lanarkshire map is slightly better, but yeah no decent Glasgow network map for some reason.
The diagrammatic map sounds cool! The size of greater Glasgow compared to Glasgow City would make a good map more difficult I'd think.

As per the other companies, that's a bit of a shame but unsurprising. I think companies undervalue the usefulness of network diagram maps.

Once again thanks so much

Here's the downloaded copy:

 

[PaulMc7]

Have First managed to pull in a decent amount of drivers lately? Looking around the app and when I've been out and about I've noticed that the evening peak doesn't seem as awful for buses missing compared to this time a month or two ago other than a select few services at times. The 60/60A for example.

The morning peak was always the stronger of the two peaks though. I still expect cuts to come sooner or later.

 

[route101]

I don't think as many people use maps now. They just want to know what service takes them from A to B every day. I love maps as you get to see how the area is served. SPT used to produce a bus map and so did Midlothian Council.

The last printed copy I have is from 2018 for First Glasgow.

 

[stevenedin]

I don't think as many people use maps now. They just want to know what service takes them from A to B every day. I love maps as you get to see how the area is served. SPT used to produce a bus map and so did Midlothian Council.

The last printed copy I have is from 2018 for First Glasgow.

I definitely still use a map. It’s good to see which bus goes where.

 

[VioletEclipse]

Here's the downloaded copy:

thanks so much!

 

[92002]

That would make sense, and I do hope that to be the case for the 2 and 3 at least. I don't see the 77 is getting Enviro400EV's anytime soon but they would suit it, they would just need to be long enough for a suitable capacity and luggage rack space.

The opportunity currently exists for longer vehicles in the E500ev design already available.

These would also be an ideal solution for 2 and 3 routes Taking maximum passrngers with minimum drivers. On a reduced service frequency.

 

[PaulMc7]

The opportunity currently exists for longer vehicles in the E500ev design already available.

These would also be an ideal solution for 2 and 3 routes Taking maximum passrngers with minimum drivers. On a reduced service frequency.

My 2 when it's a double decker now in the morning has 55-60 people on it most days before it even gets into Whiteinch now and that's with the school kids using the 1s because of the Victoria Park stop.

While we are at it, the 1C and 1D badly need double deckers back.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

My 2 when it's a double decker now in the morning has 55-60 people on it most days before it even gets into Whiteinch now and that's with the school kids using the 1s because of the Victoria Park stop.

While we are at it, the 1C and 1D badly need double deckers back.

It would make sense to make the 77 electric and cascade the 77 branded E400MMCs between the 2, 3 and 1C/1D alongside the E300s or E200EVs when they arrive. The 3 imo manages singles better than the 2. I don’t think every bus needs to be a decker but even having a mix match helps. All singles is just a no go IMO.

 

[PaulMc7]

It would make sense to make the 77 electric and cascade the 77 branded E400MMCs between the 2, 3 and 1C/1D alongside the E300s or E200EVs when they arrive. The 3 imo manages singles better than the 2. I don’t think every bus needs to be a decker but even having a mix match helps. All singles is just a no go IMO.

The 3 can be as busy as the 2 from experience so I'd say it needs a lot of them too if it stays every 15 mins. The E400s have been appearing on the 2 and 3 a lot more lately although even the 8, 16 and 90 have had a shot of them too.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Let's face it when First bought buses in the past they been buying the 10.3m models, the 11.5m decker shouldve been the go to in any city operation for maximum capacity.

 

[PaulMc7]

I'm surprised we've never really had buses with a higher capacity in Glasgow to be honest. The E500s were the last thing I can think of that were 80+ seats as far as I can remember. With singles, it's been 43 at most I think since the bendys.

Is there anything First would actually consider getting that's different compared to what we've become used to?

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Anyone know when the E400EV order will resume? I heard whispers it should be about October time.

Also, are there still any more E200EVs to be delivered from the last order, not including the buses going to Scotstoun?

 

[Scott mac]

Anyone know when the E400EV order will resume? I heard whispers it should be about October time.

Also, are there still any more E200EVs to be delivered from the last order, not including the buses going to Scotstoun?

I am sure there are still 5 E200EVs to arrive.

 

[PaulMc7]

One thing I've found with First is that boarding needs to be sped up a lot more with better ticket machines that scan more quickly.

My 2 today was an E400 MMC branded for the 77 but the ticket machine was broken and honestly even just between Kelvingrove and Scotstoun it made my journey 10 mins quicker. If we had much better boarding speeds, you could potentially cut running time on some routes it makes that much of a difference.

 

[stuart81]

One thing I've found with First is that boarding needs to be sped up a lot more with better ticket machines that scan more quickly.

My 2 today was an E400 MMC branded for the 77 but the ticket machine was broken and honestly even just between Kelvingrove and Scotstoun it made my journey 10 mins quicker. If we had much better boarding speeds, you could potentially cut running time on some routes it makes that much of a difference.

Let's try a positive....

It wasn't cancelled!

 

[PaulMc7]

Let's try a positive....

It wasn't cancelled!

The 2 I normally get in the morning only ran to Scotstoun unfortunately. First time in just over 3 weeks for that mind you so it has improved drastically. The 2 I get back is a bit hit or miss. It was going to Faifley today but didn't yesterday.

Caledonia back testing cancellations again today and yesterday.

 

[92002]

One thing I've found with First is that boarding needs to be sped up a lot more with better ticket machines that scan more quickly.

My 2 today was an E400 MMC branded for the 77 but the ticket machine was broken and honestly even just between Kelvingrove and Scotstoun it made my journey 10 mins quicker. If we had much better boarding speeds, you could potentially cut running time on some routes it makes that much of a difference.

I believe the ticket machines are supplied by Transport Scotland. Although other operators have better machines. The process to issue a ticket seems incredibly complicated. Even though in most cases the terminal point is issued.