overthewater
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Cut to the 2 wasn't bad because it carried very little.
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First Greater Glasgow
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Yeah I don't think the cut was bad personally was meaning from a backlash to it POV although I don't think anyone could have any complaints whereas the X1 there's plenty of reasons to have grief about it. Surprised the 19A cut hasn't caused too much backlash.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
They are going simply because they are Euro 3 and therefore won't meet the LEZ requirements. There's also a need for extra deckers in Bristol AND replacement of older deckers in various fleets as yes, some First OpCos have stuff a lot older than 2003/4!
The 2003 Tridents will have been refurbished when they were converted to single door on exit from London. However, the 2004 B7TLs are native to Glasgow and have never been treated to a retrim AFAIK.
First have done things with cutting fares. It worked in Bristol in that there was suppressed demand and so changing the fare structure did promote increased growth. However, Bristol and the surrounding area are very strong economically. They also had a lot of routes that were single decked so they've been able to introduce deckers so accommodating the growth at a minimal additional cost.
Note that they cut fares in Greater Manchester and it didn't work. Part of that is the impact of the Metrolink there but also, it wasn't able to encourage people to travel in an economically depressed area. Also, only 20% is quite a reduction. You've done your business course so you'll be able to understand the impact on the cost base and the impact on resources.
Yes absolutely. Given the LEZ focus too and the money levels involved in that there's 0 chance of a price decrease anytime soon.
Can genuinely see All day tickets going to £5 and singles being close to £3 by the end of next year if it's still First in control in Glasgow
I see from today mcgills has reg the service 72 but still from the Monday 28th October.it will be to c over the 19a coming off as the x2 is every hour
It's also SPT tendered anyway so that's not a surprise at all. Never seen it that busy either though tbh
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it will be now since 19a took off,people standing for a hour for x2 then can get 72.i see spt sttod in to fill gap
that's to show that they don't need deckers,when they put on single decker .that's why its coming off
overthewater
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Could some of the X1 come back as 267 or 255 in the morning?
https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/17920945.outrage-vital-first-glasgow-x1-service-hamilton-axed/
https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/17920945.outrage-vital-first-glasgow-x1-service-hamilton-axed/
First Glasgow has been criticised after axing a "vital" service between Hamilton and Glasgow.
Locals who use the X1 express service have slammed the bus firm for ditching the route, urging them to reverse the decision.
Almost 3000 people have backed a petition calling on the route to be saved in just three days.
And Labour MSP Monica Lennon has tabled a motion against the move - which she says "ignored the needs of people in Hamilton".
The route will come to a halt at the end of October.
First Glasgow, however, say that the X1 has seen a drop of passenger numbers in recent years, making the route "unsustainable on a commercial basis".
In her petition Rebecca Creechan said: "First bus has announced the scrapping of the X1 service to Glasgow which commences on 26th October.
"Many locals throughout Hamilton require the use of this service to transport them to the Royal Infirmary, university, college and work.
"Other modes of transport may not be a suitable replacement for many with reasons such as further distance, travel time difference, disability such as wheelchair users, the increase of travel fares, being elderly and mental health issues such as anxiety. The list can go on.
"Which is why we need the local community to help fight back and show First Bus why we need this service.
"Together we can save this vital service, X1."
Monica Lennon, MSP for Central Scotland added: "This is an outrageous decision.
"The X1 is a busy service that provides a vital transport link for many of my constituents who need to get to Glasgow. "I have asked First Bus to immediately halt this decision. "Scottish Labour will bring back the buses into public ownership, so that vital services like the X1 which people rely on will never be put at risk."
First Glasgow bosses confirmed they will be meeting with the MSP and other stakeholders in the coming days to explain their reasoning.
Graeme Macfarlan, Commercial Director for First Glasgow, said: "At First Glasgow, we conduct a review of our network on a regular basis to ensure that our coverage remains in line with demand for our services in a given area.
“As a responsible operator, we also need to be mindful of the effects that operating services that carry very few, if any passengers at all, can have on the environment.
“The Service X1 is a route that has been in decline for a number of years in terms of passenger numbers, despite a number of efforts to make the route attractive to service users.
“This is due to a number of factors such as increased congestion on the M74 which slows down journey times quite dramatically, increasing competition from the subsidised local rail network in Hamilton connecting to Glasgow and these have led to an overall decline in bus patronage.
“The hope with the service was that we may in time see a boost to passenger numbers. Unfortunately, this has not transpired and in fact passengers’ levels have now fallen to a level that makes the route unsustainable on a commercial basis.
“Therefore, in our latest network changes, having exhausted all efforts to boost the service, we have now taken the difficult decision to cease the service from operation.
“However, we have introduced the new 225 service which will cover part of the route between Little Earnock and Hamilton Palace Retail Park. Customers can also still continue to catch connections to Glasgow via our 267 and 255 services that service the same area.
“We have arranged to meet with Monica Lennon MSP and a number of other stakeholders, who have been in touch regarding the X1, over the next few days to explain the reasons behind this business decision.”
You can view the petition here.
Think the fact the 267 goes onto it's main frequency so quickly might prevent that. Could use a couple as extra 255s into Hamilton. Problem would be if it wasn't busy already. The 255 isn't particularly busy off peak from experience. Other option is extra 263s.
Definitely could end up with the X1 staying at peaks though given the amount of backing it'll get. First would only damage things further and turn more people away if they go through with fully cutting it
Definitely failed to show that anyway. Was practically full at the first stop at Cathedral St
smtglasgow
Member
With the X1 it all comes back to economics. I think it's a mistake, but I can see why they want to pull the whole service. Carrying a decent load once in each peak isn’t an efficient use of resources if the bus sits doing nothing for the rest of the day. McGills got round this by bumping up the fares on the XP23 – and folk were understandably furious. First can’t really push the fare up since the competition (Scotrail) is relatively cheap - £27 a week. It’s a mess really, and the people losing their bus to work can only see a full bus which they no doubt think is making First a fortune. I’m sure that a more agile operator (Stagecoach, anyone?) would come up with a solution that kept the busy runs, but I get the feeling that First Glasgow only really understand busy, high PVR urban services – express services are a bit of a hassle.
I think the problem with it is that people would need to still get a bus to get the train so double expenditure plus I've seen a lot of people say it would cost them £100/120 more a month because of it. The whole peak service is massively busy and I don't think around 3000 signatures and MSP attention have come from nowhere all of a sudden. They could even have started it from the bus station as the Hamilton part of the route is massive. There's peaks that take 35 mins plus from Hillhouse to Hamilton town centre and that's where the problem lies in terms of number of buses required. Could even have tried the peaks the same with an every 2 hour off peak as that would only need 1 bus to do both ways or find a way to fit it into other service working from the peak buses instead of going back to the depot.
Could they not even cut the 255 Powburn Toll to Hamilton off peaks out as an alternative saving?
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Had thoughts about something that could become an issue if even more people start getting monthly and yearly tickets. Are First not going to need to focus on passenger numbers more because fewer people will need to buy singles and day tickets?
I don't think the money a service takes in each day can really be the sole thing to track anymore because going from buses I use regularly, most people don't get singles or all days at all yet the bus can be extremely busy. My main example is the 1s as I use them most. There are times where easily 80/90% of the people on the bus already have pre-purchased tickets so would that not make it far harder to work out what services take in?
It's a problem First have created for themselves by having monthly/weekly tickets that are such good value for money but just food for thought
I don't think the money a service takes in each day can really be the sole thing to track anymore because going from buses I use regularly, most people don't get singles or all days at all yet the bus can be extremely busy. My main example is the 1s as I use them most. There are times where easily 80/90% of the people on the bus already have pre-purchased tickets so would that not make it far harder to work out what services take in?
It's a problem First have created for themselves by having monthly/weekly tickets that are such good value for money but just food for thought
Bus Lightyear
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That would mean no bus service from Hamilton/Bothwell to Parkhead and Glasgow.
Would still be the 255. The ones I said to cut were the short workings in between the Glasgow buses. Just means it would every 30 mins with no short workings. Think that saves another 2 buses
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
The remuneration for passes are based on the cost of a single fare so if you reduce the cost of single fares, you reduce the remuneration for passes as well. Also, with modern ticket machines, you have much more information than operators have EVER had and with m-tickets, that is even more pronounced. Instead, by getting people to buy in advance, not only does it improve cash flow (which is important?) but they also tie people in so improve loyalty over other operators or modes (e.g. train).
The downside is that single fares for occasional users are disproportionately high but if they're occasional, that's not regarded as much of an issue and, in any case, things have been skewed by the pass remuneration formula.
However, it should be remembered that in every major survey, cost ISN'T the major issue for passengers but reliability. Sort out stuff like journey times and bus priority and you'll see more benefit.
Yeah reliability on some services is horrendous. All of my main buses suffer badly but tbh to balance it out you'd need to add about 10/15mins to journey times on timetables to fix it. The 1 is a great example of it near where I stay. It's a surprise when it's not late enough to come with the 1B after it and even off peak it is horrific.
It'll take the council sorting out the City Centre and making sure bus lanes are managed properly to start fixing the problem. There's a bus lane at my main stop and people just park in it constantly even though it's double yellow lines but it's not monitored by anyone so people constantly get away with it
tbtc
Veteran Member
Stagecoach have managed to increase the frequency off-peak of Fife - Edinburgh services... I'm less familiar with their "Western" operations but my understanding is they've filled some seats on the Ayrshire - Glasgow services by diverting some services into Braehead. Shame First don't do the same with some X1s into the Fort (some, not all!) - that'd offer something that ScotRail can't.
Which is it though?
You're saying that the bus is better than the train because the train only serves central Hamilton (so you'd need to get a bus into town to get to the station) but also that First should cut the "suburban" bit of the X1 so that it just runs from the town centre to Glasgow (i.e. offers nothing that the train can't, other than a cheaper/slower alternative from town centre to city centre).
At least the current X1 is integrated with other Hamilton services, so it's not *just* for Glasgow passengers.
Maybe one option would be to run the run the service as a circle around Hamilton so that the morning services were Glasgow - Hamilton - Farm Road - Little Earnock - Hamilton - Glasgow and the afternoon services were Glasgow - Hamilton - Little Earnock - Farm Road - Hamilton - Glasgow - i.e. maintaining the current service in line with the morning/afternoon "flows" but reducing the running around suburban Hamilton a little bit (a circle rather than the current rambling route in both directions)?
If it was ran from the bus station then people would still only use 1 company though whereas including scotrail means 2 companies. I do like the circle route idea though. The 226 also has a weird circle route section in Hillhouse and Fairhill too. Could have 1 go one way and 1 go the other? Only issue is the frequency difference between the X1 and 226 outside peaks but I'm sure there's a way around it. I do also think the fort should be used too with the X1 off peak. Whitelaws made a Sunday service from Stonehouse and Larkhall work reasonably well from what I've seen so it would be a great idea for the X1 and X11 too
Stagecoach in Fife are winning traffic over the train as the trains went through a very rough patch has badly that damaged customer perception and they already had a strong award winning product.
When it comes to their Western operations in Kilmarnock they have prospered due to again a very underinvested fragile diesel train service that hasn’t changed much.
But when it comes to everywhere else the express bus network across Ayrshire has taken a complete battering from the improved electric train services. The x77 has taken a battering due to Prestwick Airport’s severe fall in popularity-that was a very significant revenue earner, the train service doubling in frequency to every 15 minutes, brand new trains and new even faster express journeys. The x77 used to have Tri-axle deckers allocated to it for years- now it’s single deckers that get hopelessly get stuck on the motorway at peak time.
The North Ayrshire buses that divert to Braehead - they are proposing to remove these diversions to run direct as before and it looks like the proposed other changes are a last roll of the dice before they take them off. The North Ayrshire services have lost a lot of patronage to the electric trains and have been slowly cut over the years as a result.
There’s a theme here, it’s not just a First phenomenon where express buses are struggling against the train. If the trains are poor the bus service does well and vice versa.
overthewater
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Of course the Fife service has seen a major increase because of all the people moving into Fife thus alot more Car traffic/ bus passengers and train passengers, so there is still plenty of growth for both buses and trains. Some people will not pay the train fares.
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Train fares are always an interesting one compared to the buses for me. Personally I think the train is a rip off compared to the bus plus it would never suit me considering I'm not the person who just makes a return trip on a day. I can get 12 1s an hour, 7/8 2s an hour and 6 6s not to mention the 3 and X4 aren't miles away. Can't turn that down at all. I can understand speed over cost for some people but it's cost over time anyday for me
duffers2324
Member
With the train though i think it can depend were you are going and where you start from in a sense, i always used to have that perception for years that the train was much more expensive than the bus but was generally quicker and the bus was cheaper but slower so here was the dilemma, now though due to the First pushing up prices for me the train is now quicker and cheaper for eg one of my main journey flows is from Milton to Clydebank. so its not as if i dont have a bad service i could pay the £4.70 (as it is now) or £4.60 on the app and get a 75 at every 8 minutes and then the 1 to Cludebank every 10 minutes but i dont seeing as it only cost £3 by train from Possilpark to Drumry or Yoker, yes i have a walk involved using the train at both ends but thats manageable but service for that is every 30 minutes, i know for sure which i would rather pick, but as @PaulMc7 said it can come down to what people prefer cost over time or vice versa. In fact work this one out i can get a return from Yoker to Possilpark for £3 but a return just into town costs £3.60.
Anyone else think that First seem to follow set limits for how much they cut each time there's a service change?
Seems to be a pattern of at least one big route cut and then small adjustments and timetable changes. Think eventually we could get much bigger cuts if there are a few loss-makers.
What services could realistically be next to be axed? Can't imagine the X4 being a money maker outside peaks, the 7A between Rutherglen and Westburn is usually quiet, the 8 and 90 are only really busy at certain points of the route etc. Also seen a lot of people claim that the X1 is commercially viable but it goes to show how many people see a busy bus and think instant profit maker and also don't consider passenger levels when they don't use the service at other times of the day
Seems to be a pattern of at least one big route cut and then small adjustments and timetable changes. Think eventually we could get much bigger cuts if there are a few loss-makers.
What services could realistically be next to be axed? Can't imagine the X4 being a money maker outside peaks, the 7A between Rutherglen and Westburn is usually quiet, the 8 and 90 are only really busy at certain points of the route etc. Also seen a lot of people claim that the X1 is commercially viable but it goes to show how many people see a busy bus and think instant profit maker and also don't consider passenger levels when they don't use the service at other times of the day
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
A few pointers here....
People who post constantly on a bus enthusiast forum are not the typical user so the "I'd use the bus whatever" argument is fairly limited. Also, trains usually have a speed advantage that involves reliability (over the problems of traffic congestion). That ticks the reliability issue that is the main consideration for passengers rather than cost.
Where buses have an advantage over trains is a) where train stations are peripheral at either (or both ends) and so travel times are comparable and b) where particular lines have reliability issues from poor rolling stock or infrastructure. Buses have to have a unique selling proposition. Otherwise, they really can't compete especially when off peak rail travel is relatively cheap.
There are plenty of examples where rail (and metro) lines have opened and it has decimated the patronage of the parallel bus services - see Bathgate to Edinburgh, see Galashiels to Edinburgh, see Manchester Metrolink. Similarly, there are plenty of examples where unreliable rail services have prompted the increase of reliable bus services but when they have got their act together, the train service has been improved and the bus service has again withered.
Yeah definitely. There's plenty of areas with train stations that aren't right in the middle of them tbh but as you say having a USP is crucial for the bus and First fail to create one with a lot of services that have eventually either been cut a lot or removed completely.
Big examples of this for me were the old 22 and 53 services. Should have been easy to market services and get success out of them when the route involves a double shopping centre connection. Silverburn and Braehead are so hit and miss given the fact they're very popular now. X8 isn't always the busiest for Silverburn whereas the 3/10/57 can be fairly busy a lot and with Braehead the 77 has worked really well whereas the 9A isn't always busy and the 90 is fairly quiet between Govan and Braehead although it has a lot of direct competition with Mcgills.
It's the reliability factor too that plays a massive part. I'd hardly call myself an enthusiast I've just had to rely on First constantly and I came across this site by accident while looking up something to do with changes. I'm on here now because I learn from other opinions not really to do with buses themselves. I also used to get let down by the train a lot so it's a no brainer for me to use buses as I've had way more luck with them but I fully understand why people would use trains more and I'm not surprised so many people do