First Greater Glasgow

[Tom Gallacher]

The 20 came from Great Western Road and up the slip road to Duntreath Avenue into Drumchapel and vice versa. The 3 covers this section now.

Not when I lived there. The 9, 19 and 20 all came into Drumchapel via Drumry Road East and Dunkenny Rd. The 9 turned left up Achamore Rd , the 19 and 20 turned right and made their way to Peel Glen Road. It was a good few years after the flyover was built that Duntreath Ave was used for buses. The 105 came in via Canniesburn Rd and Kinfauns Dr to its terminus at Dalsetter Ave.

But then I'm an old fart

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Oct 2022 ==

Don’t remember the 2, which route was that?
The EK buses were I think the 138-140 which went to Faifley? Maybe I’m going too far back in time though…

Knightswood to King's Park. Replaced by the 66.

 

[adrock1976]

Being pedantic (as is my wont) the old route of the 20 when entering Drumchapel was along Drumry Road East, Dunkenny Road, Achamore Rd, Kinfauns Dr and Peel Glen Road.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2022 ==


You also had the 2 and the 58 along with Midland's 105 and Central's East Kilbride service (can't remember the number)

Don’t remember the 2, which route was that?
The EK buses were I think the 138-140 which went to Faifley? Maybe I’m going too far back in time though…

The only version of the 2 I remember pre Overground is the one that ran Cadogan Street - Easterhouse via Central Station, Glasgow Cross, High Street, Royal Infirmary, and Royston Road.

When the Overground concept was introduced in 1999, the X19 that ran to Easterhouse via M8 transferred to Stagecoach (Ayr), and most of the 2 became the present day 19, running via Baird Street and Queen Street station and no longer serving Cadogan Street or High Street.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

The old Corpy/SBL 19 which was binned in the late 80s ran from Drumchapel to Mount Florida via Anniesland, Clyde Tunnel, Govan and Pollokshields. For a very short time it extended east to Hamilton via Rutherglen, Cambuslang and Blantyre.

There was also a 39 which did a tour of the Clydebank, Drumchapel and Knightswood areas but that didn't last long.

Alexander Midland had routes 105, 106, 107 and 108 to the city either via the Switchback and Great Western Road or Maryhill Road.

Routes and termini in Drumchapel have changed so much over the years, same with the other 3 big Glasgow schemes, mainly due to reduced population and regeneration and it's become quite challenging trying to keep track of it all. Drumry Road East is absolutely shocking for through-traffic due to parked cars and that's why it's only served by a small number of buses these days.

 

[adrock1976]

The old Corpy/SBL 19 which was binned in the late 80s ran from Drumchapel to Mount Florida via Anniesland, Clyde Tunnel, Govan and Pollokshields. For a very short time it extended east to Hamilton via Rutherglen, Cambuslang and Blantyre.

There was also a 39 which did a tour of the Clydebank, Drumchapel and Knightswood areas but that didn't last long.

Alexander Midland had routes 105, 106, 107 and 108 to the city either via the Switchback and Great Western Road or Maryhill Road.

Routes and termini in Drumchapel have changed so much over the years, same with the other 3 big Glasgow schemes, mainly due to reduced population and regeneration and it's become quite challenging trying to keep track of it all. Drumry Road East is absolutely shocking for through-traffic due to parked cars and that's why it's only served by a small number of buses these days.

Is Alexander Midland the one that was/is based at Larbert (Midland Bluebird/First Scotland East/McGills)?

Also, I think there was a bus station in Castlemilk at the top end of Birgidale Road (Ardencraig Road junction) but seems to have been demolished. I am unsure if the bus station was something that Pat "Lazarus" Lally was involved in being as he was the local councillor.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

Is Alexander Midland the one that was/is based at Larbert (Midland Bluebird/First Scotland East/McGills)?

The Alexander Midland network stretched from North East of Glasgow through Stirlingshire to Perthshire. These days, it is mainly covered by First Glasgow's Kirkintilloch and Kilsyth services, McGill's Midland Bluebird and Stagecoach Strathtay. They had depots in Balfron, Milngavie, Kirkintilloch, Stepps, Cumbernuauld, Kilsyth, Larbert, Bannockburn, Grangemouth, Alloa, Crieff and Perth (I may have missed some).

Also, I think there was a bus station in Castlemilk at the top end of Birgidale Road (Ardencraig Road junction) but seems to have been demolished. I am unsure if the bus station was something that Pat "Lazarus" Lally* was involved in being as he was the local councillor.

Castlemilk Bus Station was a white elephant and closed after 10 years with houses built on the site.

Castlemilk Ailsas (2)

Strathclyde Buses Ailsa A42 passes a Tayside Ailsa in Castlemilk Bus Station. The Tayside Ailsa was on hire to Strathlcyde to cover for the vehicles lost in the Larkfield fire. ©eb2010 Do not use this image without my permission

www.flickr.com

 

[PaulMc7]

It's always good reading posts about the older days to learn the history of our city's routes etc. Overground was the first big thing I can remember and even then I was a child.

On another note, I noticed through Scotstoun and Whiteinch that some of the bus stops have updated timetables courtesy of SPT updating them. It's not all of them and it will take time but it would be good to see them all updated eventually. However, I'd be shocked if First didn't make changes at some point. If it's not November I personally feel like it'll be January.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

The old Corpy/SBL 19 which was binned in the late 80s ran from Drumchapel to Mount Florida via Anniesland, Clyde Tunnel, Govan and Pollokshields. For a very short time it extended east to Hamilton via Rutherglen, Cambuslang and Blantyre.

There was also a 39 which did a tour of the Clydebank, Drumchapel and Knightswood areas but that didn't last long.

Alexander Midland had routes 105, 106, 107 and 108 to the city either via the Switchback and Great Western Road or Maryhill Road.

Routes and termini in Drumchapel have changed so much over the years, same with the other 3 big Glasgow schemes, mainly due to reduced population and regeneration and it's become quite challenging trying to keep track of it all. Drumry Road East is absolutely shocking for through-traffic due to parked cars and that's why it's only served by a small number of buses these days.

Midland 106 and 108 were peak time services only. One went to Glenkirk Dr and the other Tallant Road but I can't remember which was which as I stayed at the Clydebank end of the scheme. 107 went to Peel Glen Road I think, same terminus as the 19 & 20 corporation buses. I also seem to remember a 147 service that went to Dalsetter Ave via Garscadden Road.

 

[route101]

Waiting on the 6 right now. Must be 50 minutes gap between buses. If there was an inspector at the bus station they could have turned some services back.

 

[PaulMc7]

Waiting on the 6 right now. Must be 50 minutes gap between buses. If there was an inspector at the bus station they could of turned some services back.

They're massively short of drivers for the 6 today it seems. This morning, 2 didn't show for me either. Waited 40 minutes just to go to Anniesland. It's a shame the app cancellation feature is in trial stage. It seems like it has for about 2-3 months at this point too. The social media are finally saying it's in trial stage mind you.

 

[route101]

They're massively short of drivers for the 6 today it seems. This morning, 2 didn't show for me either. Waited 40 minutes just to go to Anniesland. It's a shame the app cancellation feature is in trial stage. It seems like it has for about 2-3 months at this point too. The social media are finally saying it's in trial stage mind you.

I never saw any mention of cancellations on the app. The app kept saying bus due in 3 minutes.

 

[PaulMc7]

I never seen any mention of cancellations on the app. The app kept saying bus due in 3 minutes.

Even with just the testing, Scotstoun don't seem to bother doing it at the weekend. Caledonia haven't done it either today other than one 38B from what I've seen but they normally do it at the weekend.

One of ours just had the time it was due at but no live time and then the other had a live time and didn't show. The app seems to run completely differently at the weekend.

 

[route101]

Even with just the testing, Scotstoun don't seem to bother doing it at the weekend. Caledonia haven't done it either today other than one 38B from what I've seen but they normally do it at the weekend.

One of ours just had the time it was due at but no live time and then the other had a live time and didn't show. The app seems to run completely differently at the weekend.

Usually I've been lucky with buses but today I was out of luck. Had two buses where we were terminated short due to lack of driver.

 

[PaulMc7]

Usually I've been lucky with buses but today I was out of luck. Had two buses where we were terminated short due to lack of driver.

It's been roadworks that have caused me issues lately more than driver shortages but some services are easier for me to avoid getting around and luckily they also seem to be the ones absolutely hammered with cancellations.

The 38s and 57s seem practically unusable sometimes going by the gaps between them due to cancellations. We can only hope the cancellation feature is fully working on the app soon so it's easier to plan journeys but I'm not building my hopes up just yet.

Even Caledonia's first test of it was well over a month ago now with Blantyre and Scotstoun being around 2 months. Dumbarton has also only tested it once from what I've seen too and despite their issues being significantly less than everywhere else, I have been undone by missing 1s on a couple of occasions.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

It's been roadworks that have caused me issues lately more than driver shortages but some services are easier for me to avoid getting around and luckily they also seem to be the ones absolutely hammered with cancellations.

The 38s and 57s seem practically unusable sometimes going by the gaps between them due to cancellations. We can only hope the cancellation feature is fully working on the app soon so it's easier to plan journeys but I'm not building my hopes up just yet.

Even Caledonia's first test of it was well over a month ago now with Blantyre and Scotstoun being around 2 months. Dumbarton has also only tested it once from what I've seen too and despite their issues being significantly less than everywhere else, I have been undone by missing 1s on a couple of occasions.

I really noticed it on the 2. There’s like 20 minutes between buses which was just unheard before. The route is and has always been so busy. There used to be a bus like every 5 minutes or less at one point. I hope it recovers

 

[XAM2175]

On Maryhill Road on Friday afternoon (between 1600 and 1700, at least) there was a big problem with bunching heading away from the city - two 60s, a 60A, and 61 turned up virtually at once, then an 8 that appeared to be running several minutes early, and then an X10... then a 25-minute gap before another convoy that this time comprised a 60, a 60A, two 61s, and two 17s. It's getting to be a wee bit tedious.

 

[PaulMc7]

On Maryhill Road on Friday afternoon (between 1600 and 1700, at least) there was a big problem with bunching heading away from the city - two 60s, a 60A, and 61 turned up virtually at once, then an 8 that appeared to be running several minutes early, and then an X10... then a 25-minute gap before another convoy that this time comprised a 60, a 60A, two 61s, and two 17s. It's getting to be a wee bit tedious.

The routes of the 60/60A are a tad too long to ever be reliable, especially with the likes of Duke Street and Shettleston on the route and a ton of car congestion. With the 61 it's more reasonable in length but Tollcross is horrendous for congestion and awful parking.

The 8 is a very weird one because from experience it's either quiet and constantly early or extremely late and there's no in between. I find that they're normally early at Robroyston Asda though and occasionally Botanic Gardens towards Parkhead too.

As much as I think First can't do anything about car congestion, they do need to readjust some routes in terms of giving them a chance to be reliable. Anything over 90 minutes is probably too long and some of the 60-90 minute routes could do with tweaks to not slam them through a lot major congestion areas.

 

[Brimfulofasha]

I really noticed it on the 2. There’s like 20 minutes between buses which was just unheard before. The route is and has always been so busy. There used to be a bus like every 5 minutes or less at one point. I hope it recovers

I waited about 40 minutes from 1300 on Saturday on the Gallowgate at the Forge - it was during the build up to a match at Celtic Park, but other buses got through 61s (3), 240s (2), 255 (1) and 64 (1). Then 2 double-deckers arrived together and stayed together all the way to Finnieston.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I waited about 40 minutes from 1300 on Saturday on the Gallowgate at the Forge - it was during the build up to a match at Celtic Park, but other buses got through 61s (3), 240s (2), 255 (1) and 64 (1). Then 2 double-deckers arrived together and stayed together all the way to Finnieston.

What should be getting asked is “What is most important to people”?

Prioritising certain routes over other should be a priority such as the 2 and 61.

Less so should be the likes of the 60s for example.

 

[PaulMc7]

What should be getting asked is “What is most important to people”?

Prioritising certain routes over other should be a priority such as the 2 and 61.

Less so should be the likes of the 60s for example.

I don't know about off peak but at peaks the 60s are absolutely rammed so they should get a lot of priority especially now that the X10/X10A aren't First's.

The 64 is also an interesting one because it's very well used at times too. The only alternative would be incorporating a 61A into the current 61 and having that go to Carmyle with the 61 going to Sandyhills less frequently than it does now.

Routes like the 9 are the interesting ones to me because even though the trains exist and Mcgills overload the 38, the 9 is still busy in and out of Paisley enough of the time to warrant the current frequency.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I don't know about off peak but at peaks the 60s are absolutely rammed so they should get a lot of priority especially now that the X10/X10A aren't First's.

what requires more drivers? The 61 at every 8-10 minutes or a 60(Clydebank to Easterhouse) at every 20 minutes?

The status-quo with the way the routes are in Glasgow isn’t working, simply being bemused by the idea that the 60 & 60A should not be broken up is bewildering.

The 60s end up being rammed because most likely other routes don’t turn up, particularly if it’s bound for Maryhill from the City Centre.

Previously when the 60 operated as route 40 it did not interfere with the 60A or equivalent route that went to Milngavie.

Quite frankly the 60A needs separated onto its own Milngavie to City Centre Route, particularly as the Citybus 15 is running hourly from Milngavie as well albeit via different areas.

The 64 is also an interesting one because it's very well used at times too. The only alternative would be incorporating a 61A into the current 61 and having that go to Carmyle with the 61 going to Sandyhills less frequently than it does now.

This should’ve been done eons ago, provided however that the reduction in frequency at Sandyhills was a reliable one, which of course it wouldn’t be, perhaps no more unreliable than it is now.

Routes like the 9 are the interesting ones to me because even though the trains exist and Mcgills overload the 38, the 9 is still busy in and out of Paisley enough of the time to warrant the current frequency.

If you go out and drive a 9 you will occasionally hear people say they will actively choose route 9 over the 38, many people don’t like McGills, it’s that simple.

Other factors revolve around the fact that the closer you get to Glasgow City Centre itself the more First Buses can be found this benefiting those who chose First Bus Day or Weekly tickets.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

What should be getting asked is “What is most important to people”?

Prioritising certain routes over other should be a priority such as the 2 and 61.

Less so should be the likes of the 60s for example.

The 60/60A is a busy route. I’d say the 60/60A, 61 and 2 certainly from the east end are busy. It takes people to the Fort.

I do agree however - certain routes should be prioritised and the 2 is a big one especially to be running at a 20 minute frequency.

 

[PaulMc7]

what requires more drivers? The 61 at every 8-10 minutes or a 60(Clydebank to Easterhouse) at every 20 minutes?

The status-quo with the way the routes are in Glasgow isn’t working, simply being bemused by the idea that the 60 & 60A should not be broken up is bewildering.

The 60s end up being rammed because most likely other routes don’t turn up, particularly if it’s bound for Maryhill from the City Centre.

Previously when the 60 operated as route 40 it did not interfere with the 60A or equivalent route that went to Milngavie.

Quite frankly the 60A needs separated onto its own Milngavie to City Centre Route, particularly as the Citybus 15 is running hourly from Milngavie as well albeit via different areas.


This should’ve been done eons ago, provided however that the reduction in frequency at Sandyhills was a reliable one, which of course it wouldn’t be, perhaps no more unreliable than it is now.


If you go out and drive a 9 you will occasionally hear people say they will actively choose route 9 over the 38, many people don’t like McGills, it’s that simple.

Other factors revolve around the fact that the closer you get to Glasgow City Centre itself the more First Buses can be found this benefiting those who chose First Bus Day or Weekly tickets.

The 60 being every 20 mins would increase the current frequency as it's every 30 just now and very prone to cancellations as is the 61. The route is too long to ever be reliable even when they all run mind you. Maryhill and Shettleston seem to be the worst areas for causing this unreliability. I agree with you on the 60A. I'm surprised it's not became City Centre to Milngavie already.

First's direct debit being a fair chunk cheaper than Mcgills 4 week pass will also be a factor. I'm pretty sure it's around a £15 difference and you get more days with the direct debit.

The full network needs looked at to be honest. There are definitely routes that could change to keep services viable but also require less vehicles and drivers.

 

[92002]

The 60 being every 20 mins would increase the current frequency as it's every 30 just now and very prone to cancellations as is the 61. The route is too long to ever be reliable even when they all run mind you. Maryhill and Shettleston seem to be the worst areas for causing this unreliability. I agree with you on the 60A. I'm surprised it's not became City Centre to Milngavie already.

First's direct debit being a fair chunk cheaper than Mcgills 4 week pass will also be a factor. I'm pretty sure it's around a £15 difference and you get more days with the direct debit.

The full network needs looked at to be honest. There are definitely routes that could change to keep services viable but also require less vehicles and drivers.

The 60 was originally a 20 minute frequency. However the temporary timetable decided a 30 minute one would do. Even at 30 minutes they dont turn up still. My record was a 90 minute wait to then see the third one running out of service. Service, what service is that. Needless to say I didn't wait another 30 minutes for the fourth one and got a taxi home. No other alternative services were available.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

The 60 was originally a 20 minute frequency. However the temporary timetable decided a 30 minute one would do. Even at 30 minutes they dont turn up still. My record was a 90 minute wait to then see the third one running out of service. Service, what service is that. Needless to say I didn't wait another 30 minutes for the fourth one and got a taxi home. No other alternative services were available.

Combined the 60 & 60A produce a 15 minute frequency between The West of Scotland Science Park and Easterhouse.

Hypothetically, producing a 20 minute service between Clydebank and Easterhouse only should be imperative.

What would be more reliable trying to combine the 60 & 60A for a 15 minute service that is unreliable OR a 20 minute route from Clydebank to Easterhouse only that is reliable?

 

[PaulMc7]

Combined the 60 & 60A produce a 15 minute frequency between The West of Scotland Science Park and Easterhouse.

Hypothetically, producing a 20 minute service between Clydebank and Easterhouse only should be imperative.

What would be more reliable trying to combine the 60 & 60A for a 15 minute service that is unreliable OR a 20 minute route from Clydebank to Easterhouse only that is reliable?

The problem is, do they have enough drivers trained on the 60 route that they'd even manage to cover that? At the moment, I'd say the answer is no. Routes like the 7A, 38E etc being so infrequent doesn't seem to stop them being hammered by cancellations. The 4A is hourly and even that gets cancellations most days.

First just need to release timetables they can run with reworked services that result in nowhere being cut off but with far less cancellations. The app cancellations feature needed to be rolled out months earlier than it was too.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

The problem is, do they have enough drivers trained on the 60 route that they'd even manage to cover that? At the moment, I'd say the answer is no. Routes like the 7A, 38E etc being so infrequent doesn't seem to stop them being hammered by cancellations. The 4A is hourly and even that gets cancellations most days.

The drivers who are all Ex-Parkhead know the 60, you would simply be moving drivers from the 60A to priority onto the 60.

Is the 4A still full route? Eaglesham to Broomhill? Hourly between Eaglesham & City Centre only is a good shout otherwise.

The variations of major routes are a blight on the overall perception of there reliability.

For example, the 38C used to be the 36 but only between Chryston & the City Centre, putting it back that way may take some buses away from the Giffnock corridor that all 38 variations run on, but overall any small change to reduce the issues surrounding lack of drivers would make a positive change without overly making cuts.

First just need to release timetables they can run with reworked services that result in nowhere being cut off but with far less cancellations. The app cancellations feature needed to be rolled out months earlier than it was too.

True this does need to happen but also internally the way in which the company operates and allocates drivers needs to change.

 

[PaulMc7]

The drivers who are all Ex-Parkhead know the 60, you would simply be moving drivers from the 60A to priority onto the 60.

Is the 4A still full route? Eaglesham to Broomhill? Hourly between Eaglesham & City Centre only is a good shout otherwise.

The variations of major routes are a blight on the overall perception of there reliability.


True this does need to happen but also internally the way in which the company operates and allocates drivers needs to change.

Yes, the 4A is hourly between Eaglesham and Broomhill. I agree on that to be fair. It does baffle me how the same routes are continually affected and have been for months. The ones I mentioned previously have been fairly dreadful since the shortage really began.

A whole network refresh needs to happen soon. I'd have thought November due to when funding was cut but if it's not January at the latest then there probably won't be one despite the fact the current network just doesn't work.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Yes, the 4A is hourly between Eaglesham and Broomhill. I agree on that to be fair. It does baffle me how the same routes are continually affected and have been for months. The ones I mentioned previously have been fairly dreadful since the shortage really began.

A whole network refresh needs to happen soon. I'd have thought November due to when funding was cut but if it's not January at the latest then there probably won't be one despite the fact the current network just doesn't work.

If cuts are to happen I doubt that it’d be because government funding will end, more because they just can’t operate the timetable..

Glasgows a fairly profitable operation as is, add in the vehicles that don’t operate and theres savings to be made whilst all those in Glasgow using buses unfortunately just have to wait until one turns up.

 

[PaulMc7]

If cuts are to happen I doubt that it’d be because government funding will end, more because they just can’t operate the timetable..

Glasgows a fairly profitable operation as is, add in the vehicles that don’t operate and theres savings to be made whilst all those in Glasgow using buses unfortunately just have to wait until one turns up.

I thought at first it wouldn't be to do with funding but with how off peak travel is now I'm not too sure. I used the 2 this morning and even that was incredibly quiet. With the orbital routes like the 8 in particular, I'd imagine funding is the difference between them being viable or not especially going by recent experience. I was the last person on my 8 at one point today and it was never busy before that.

Having vehicles off of the road will help with costs too but driver wages and fuel costs increasing probably cancels a lot of that out. I'd imagine that most off peak frequencies could drop a level to be honest especially anything more frequent than every 30 mins. From experience, this would be absolutely warranted.

 

[XAM2175]

The status-quo with the way the routes are in Glasgow isn’t working, simply being bemused by the idea that the 60 & 60A should not be broken up is bewildering.

The route is too long to ever be reliable even when they all run mind you. Maryhill and Shettleston seem to be the worst areas for causing this unreliability. I agree with you on the 60A. I'm surprised it's not became City Centre to Milngavie already.

Yes, at the absolute least they should be split so that they run into the city and then back out again.

With the orbital routes like the 8 in particular, I'd imagine funding is the difference between them being viable or not especially going by recent experience. I was the last person on my 8 at one point today and it was never busy before that.

I've seen the 8 and 90 carry decent loads on the Partick-Maryhill and vice-versa section quite often, but I suppose that's by-the-by for orbital routes - they string together a lot of shorter journeys that aren't on the in-to-or-out-of-the-city axes.

That said, pre-Covid when I was working on Alexandra Parade just near the Royal Infirmary and living in Maryhill, the 90 was surprisingly useful for the trip home. Not necessarily faster than the 38/57+60/61 combo (especially given the grindingly slow progress trying to get from Castle Street onto Springburn Road), but a hell of a lot less bother.