First Greater Glasgow

[JumpinTrainz]

The first of the new electric buses has arrived at Scotstoun - 64159.

Although I’m intrigued to see how this will end with the BYD/ADL E200EVs - I will be happy to see some new buses on the 2. It’s been just over 10 years since the E300s were ordered new for the route and they are tired.

 

[mb88]

Maybe some Cally buses will be wrapped in it, it probably depends where the most driver shortages are. While on the subject what is the driver shortage situation like, as First seem to be heavily promoting “Drivers Wanted”.

They must still be struggling if they’re having to spend money on campaigns. They could do with addressing some of the issues around terms and conditions if they really want to solve their recruitment and retention problem. The lack of paid travelling time is a big barrier for me going to work for them. Starting an early shift at Overtown depot, for example, and finishing in Motherwell then having to sit on a bus in your own time, unpaid, to get back to Overtown to retrieve your car is a nonsense. When I started with First back in 2008 at Cumbernauld I’m almost certain we got paid travelling time to get to Buchanan to pick up the Kirky routes. Not sure when this disappeared, presumably given up at some point in lieu of a higher hourly rate.

 

[PaulMc7]

They must still be struggling if they’re having to spend money on campaigns. They could do with addressing some of the issues around terms and conditions if they really want to solve their recruitment and retention problem. The lack of paid travelling time is a big barrier for me going to work for them. Starting an early shift at Overtown depot, for example, and finishing in Motherwell then having to sit on a bus in your own time, unpaid, to get back to Overtown to retrieve your car is a nonsense. When I started with First back in 2008 at Cumbernauld I’m almost certain we got paid travelling time to get to Buchanan to pick up the Kirky routes. Not sure when this disappeared, presumably given up at some point in lieu of a higher hourly rate.

They do seem to be managing to get some new drivers in and it shows. In my experience as a passenger it's less frustrating now than it has been for most of the shortage, with the majority of buses I've gone for actually turning up.

I agree with you though that they could certainly do more in terms of retention. I wonder if it's a reputation thing too as First's has never been particularly positive.

Motherwell to Overtown would have been a very long journey with the roadworks in Wishaw a few weeks back too. When I was in Motherwell, 266s were getting turned at Motherwell due to how late they were. The drivers did well to cope with it especially as the moaners were out in force.

 

[mb88]

Sadly this is what happens when you close lots of depots down. You end up with drivers having to travel miles and miles to get to relief points. In the not too distant past, most routes went by the front of at least one depot, if not then a fairly short walking distance away. Companies want to have their cake and eat it. Save money by having fewer depots but also not pay their drivers for the time they’re having to spend getting to and from relief points. Blantyre is the same with drivers on the 18 and 21 having to make their way back from East Kilbride in their own time. I wonder if some level of interworking would be a possible solution? For example have the 240 and 266 on the same boards to allow for reliefs to take place at Overtown depot. It would take a bit of work, but if companies wish to hang on to drivers it’s things like this they need to sort out.

 

[Albaman]

Sadly this is what happens when you close lots of depots down. You end up with drivers having to travel miles and miles to get to relief points. In the not too distant past, most routes went by the front of at least one depot, if not then a fairly short walking distance away. Companies want to have their cake and eat it. Save money by having fewer depots but also not pay their drivers for the time they’re having to spend getting to and from relief points. Blantyre is the same with drivers on the 18 and 21 having to make their way back from East Kilbride in their own time. I wonder if some level of interworking would be a possible solution? For example have the 240 and 266 on the same boards to allow for reliefs to take place at Overtown depot. It would take a bit of work, but if companies wish to hang on to drivers it’s things like this they need to sort out.

Thanks for this information. I was curious if drivers were paid whilst travelling to and from relief points.

When a driver starts his or her shift at , for example Blantyre, and then travels as a passenger to East Kilbride to pick up a 18 or 21, is this travelling time deducted from driving time before a break is required or can the person still drive for 5 hours 30 minutes before his or her break ?

 

[PaulMc7]

Sadly this is what happens when you close lots of depots down. You end up with drivers having to travel miles and miles to get to relief points. In the not too distant past, most routes went by the front of at least one depot, if not then a fairly short walking distance away. Companies want to have their cake and eat it. Save money by having fewer depots but also not pay their drivers for the time they’re having to spend getting to and from relief points. Blantyre is the same with drivers on the 18 and 21 having to make their way back from East Kilbride in their own time. I wonder if some level of interworking would be a possible solution? For example have the 240 and 266 on the same boards to allow for reliefs to take place at Overtown depot. It would take a bit of work, but if companies wish to hang on to drivers it’s things like this they need to sort out.

The only example I could think of where interworking could be done is with the 18 and 267 as they're on the same frequency but you'd still need to allocate time for the driver to get between the two terminus points in the City Centre. The interworking in the evening with the Hamilton/Motherwell services is a bit more complex from what I picked up on when at Buchanan Bus Station.

Someone else could probably explain it better than this but the 266 and 267 interwork at Hamilton and in Glasgow, multiple buses interwork with each other. It looked like just the Overtown Depot 240 that didn't change into something else on the way back to Lanarkshire. I don't know the exact pattern of interworking though.

 

[Spsf3232]

Thanks for this information. I was curious if drivers were paid whilst travelling to and from relief points.

When a driver starts his or her shift at , for example Blantyre, and then travels as a passenger to East Kilbride to pick up a 18 or 21, is this travelling time deducted from driving time before a break is required or can the person still drive for 5 hours 30 minutes before his or her break ?

Driving time remains at 5 hours 30 minutes. What your refering to there is working time which is 6 hours.

 

[duffers2324]

Well here's my tuppence worth as an idea for the Glasgow operation.

I know these E200EVs etc have been bought in etc but it think First should maybe try and look at have a predominately Decker operated fleet, similar to the way that Edinburgh is. Now there are 2 reasons for this:

1) Would allow certain routes to run with slightly less frequently but with no impact on capacity therefore also helping the driver situation as well
2) There are so many routes on the Glasgow and Lanarkshire operation that would work well with deckers IE as most have mentioned the 1, 2, 3, 240, 267 etc

Now obviously there would be benefit to keeping a good number of singles as well for some of the more "orbital" routes or ones that wouldn't merit deckers such as the 8, 90, 46, 65, etc.

Again i get that a decker will cost more to run, but I feel if they headed in this direction a lot of the capacity issues for a lot of routes would be solved and if there is any issues with certain routes etc then either re-route or continue to use singles.

I know this is very unlikely to happen, right enough.

 

[PaulMc7]

Well here's my tuppence worth as an idea for the Glasgow operation.

I know these E200EVs etc have been bought in etc but it think First should maybe try and look at have a predominately Decker operated fleet, similar to the way that Edinburgh is. Now there are 2 reasons for this:

1) Would allow certain routes to run with slightly less frequently but with no impact on capacity therefore also helping the driver situation as well
2) There are so many routes on the Glasgow and Lanarkshire operation that would work well with deckers IE as most have mentioned the 1, 2, 3, 240, 267 etc

Now obviously there would be benefit to keeping a good number of singles as well for some of the more "orbital" routes or ones that wouldn't merit deckers such as the 8, 90, 46, 65, etc.

Again i get that a decker will cost more to run, but I feel if they headed in this direction a lot of the capacity issues for a lot of routes would be solved and if there is any issues with certain routes etc then either re-route or continue to use singles.

I know this is very unlikely to happen, right enough.

If the 1C and 1D could go to Scotstoun so they can be double decker operated it would certainly help with the capacity issues there.

The low bridge at Clydebank rules out the 1/1A/1B and M11 although the latter definitely won't need deckers anytime soon.

The other issue is the 6 due to the Busby low bridge so unless a new low height decker is suitable then it'll eventually end up being all single decker.

I do also wonder if First have any plans for more service reductions at any point. The X85/X87, 87 and 89/89A/89B have changes on the 16th July but it remains to be seen if there are more to come on top of that at a later date.

As for the orbital routes, some of them see double deckers on occasion so I wouldn't rule them out in a majority double decker operation either. According to Bustimes.org today, the M60 and 90 both had an E400 each and I'd imagine that this is correct going by what I noticed on the app earlier in terms of capacity.

I also noticed on there that the Yutong E12s 65117, 65118 and 65120 all seen some service today if it's accurate.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

There are now 10 Yutongs in service. It’s nice to see them spreading their wings a bit on to other routes.

Hopefully some start to arrive at Scotstoun. I’d like a shot of them on the 2 before they go to Aberdeen.

 

[Albaman]

Driving time remains at 5 hours 30 minutes. What your refering to there is working time which is 6 hours.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[sannox]

The other issue is the 6 due to the Busby low bridge so unless a new low height decker is suitable then it'll eventually end up being all single decker.

It's not uncommon, even in the evenings to see good loads leaving the city centre on the 6 that would be standing on single deckers. A frequency increase (increased cost / driver resources) seems expensive. Is there anything made that could squeeze under that bridge?

 

[PaulMc7]

It's not uncommon, even in the evenings to see good loads leaving the city centre on the 6 that would be standing on single deckers. A frequency increase (increased cost / driver resources) seems expensive. Is there anything made that could squeeze under that bridge?

The 6 seems to have a major imbalance in passenger loads depending on what side of the city it's on as the south side of the route is so much busier than the west for most of the day now.

The only thing I can think of is making the bus via Busby hourly and diverting one via the 4A route until Belle Craig Roundabout then turning left then using the road to Philipshill then back onto the current route. The E400s should have 4-5 years left anyway so it'll be enough time for them to come up with a plan.

 

[Volvodart]

First have a number of low height Streetdecks which may become available for the 6.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

First have a number of low height Streetdecks which may become available for the 6.

It's a pity they're absolutely awful buses.

The last good low-height deckers I can remember were the ECW bodied Leyland Olympians with TL11 engines but the many years they spent on the 66 eventually took their toll on them.

The N--- VOS and P--- TGD Volvo Olympians with Alexander RL bodies were ok as well.

 

[Jordan Adam]

First have a number of low height Streetdecks which may become available for the 6.

They're still too high for the 6 though. There isn't any decker on the market at the moment low enough for the 6.

One potential option for "The One" could be those Evoras recently delivered to Aircoach as it is proposed that they'll transfer to UK Bus following electrification of the services at Dublin Airport. The only problem is that there wouldn't be enough of them for The One.

 

[route101]

It's not uncommon, even in the evenings to see good loads leaving the city centre on the 6 that would be standing on single deckers. A frequency increase (increased cost / driver resources) seems expensive. Is there anything made that could squeeze under that bridge?

I used to use the 6 quite a lot. I am sure it ran every 20 minute until 10pm at one point. You will get busy services in evening after the peak on occasions-.

 

[PaulMc7]

I used to use the 6 quite a lot. I am sure it ran every 20 minute until 10pm at one point. You will get busy services in evening after the peak on occasions-.

If you were using it between East Kilbride Bus Station and Calderwood, it used to be closer to 11pm before it went every 30 minutes. I wish the west end of the route was still as busy as the south side but unfortunately it's nowhere near as busy between Botanic Gardens and Clydebank. If the service was split in the City Centre, I'd say there's only a 5-10% chance that the west end of the route would remain every 15 minutes.

The south side does really well given that the 4/4A cover large parts of the same route between the City Centre and Clarkston and they're getting very busy again too even with the university finishing up.

 

[Busman84]

The 4/4A is much quieter to what it was 6/7 years ago. Scottish Power in Cathcart and the old Victoria Infirmary closing killed it. Before that it was pretty busy route.

 

[PaulMc7]

The 4/4A is much quieter to what it was 6/7 years ago. Scottish Power in Cathcart and the old Victoria Infirmary closing killed it. Before that it was pretty busy route.

I was fairly worried for the frequency of it at this point last year but I think the introduction of the under 22 passes, as well as Glasgow University going back to mainly in-person classes, helped significantly and the 4/4A have probably bounced back more impressively than a lot of services in 2023.

I used to use the 44 a lot pre-Simplicity when it was every 10 minutes to Knightswood and there were times where double deckers would be full. It's a far cry from those days.

I do wonder what services are struggling the most at the moment and how that will impact the network over the next few months. On the SPT tendered side of things, it'll only be the funded journeys of the 7A and 65 left and that would have been very difficult to predict previously.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

The 4/4A is much quieter to what it was 6/7 years ago. Scottish Power in Cathcart and the old Victoria Infirmary closing killed it. Before that it was pretty busy route.

Yes the 4/4A is a shell of its former self. I wonder if the 4 and 6 could merge to sort of split the 6 off and improve reliability. Are many people really going from EK to Clydebank?

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Yes the 4/4A is a shell of its former self. I wonder if the 4 and 6 could merge to sort of split the 6 off and improve reliability. Are many people really going from EK to Clydebank?

To me it seems that the combinations of the 6 and 6A along great western road is still fairly well used, but is the 6A section between Drumchapel and Annieland busier than the Clydebank to Anniesland section of the 6?

Would it perhaps be more appropriate for them to connect Drumchapel to EK? And just leave Clydebank to the City Centre as a separate portion?

 

[voidwxrranty]

To me it seems that the combinations of the 6 and 6A along great western road is still fairly well used, but is the 6A section between Drumchapel and Annieland busier than the Clydebank to Anniesland section of the 6?

Would it perhaps be more appropriate for them to connect Drumchapel to EK? And just leave Clydebank to the City Centre as a separate portion?

Personally, I think they should join the 6 onto the 6A route at Anniesland, and as you said, have Drumchapel to EK, and introduce a new version of the 6A which was Clydebank to George Sq, to still give that part of Scotstounhill a service to the city.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

With the current low height E400s ageing and no suitable electric replacement available - I wonder if merging the 4 and 6 routes would ever be an option.

Is the 6 a well used service? I know the 4 has quietened down a lot in recent years for many reasons. The 6 was also starting to convert to single deck operation before Covid. Would having the 6 run high frequency from Clydebank - Newton Mearns and 6A from Broomhill - Eaglesham work? Then you could have a less frequent service which runs from Glasgow City Centre - East Kilbride following the old 6 route and won’t require deckers?

 

[voidwxrranty]

With the current low height E400s ageing and no suitable electric replacement available - I wonder if merging the 4 and 6 routes would ever be an option.

Is the 6 a well used service? I know the 4 has quietened down a lot in recent years for many reasons. The 6 was also starting to convert to single deck operation before Covid. Would having the 6 run high frequency from Clydebank - Newton Mearns and 6A from Broomhill - Eaglesham work? Then you could have a less frequent service which runs from Glasgow City Centre - East Kilbride following the old 6 route and won’t require deckers?

Id still have the 6A extend to Drumchapel, via Crow Rd & Anniesland. The 6A is quite well used for people going to Drumchapel, and that side of the G.W.R,

 

[PaulMc7]

Id still have the 6A extend to Drumchapel, via Crow Rd & Anniesland. The 6A is quite well used for people going to Drumchapel, and that side of the G.W.R,

From using the 6 and 6A a lot in the west, I'd definitely keep the 6A the same beyond Anniesland but I'd drop the frequency of the 6 to every 20 minutes between Clydebank and George Square. The south side of the 6 is definitely far busier than the rest so I'd keep that every 15 minutes. I'd also extend the 6A to East Kilbride as the congestion further along Great Western Road and Drumchapel doesn't seem to be as bad as the Yoker part of the 6.

 

[stevenedin]

What is the situation with the 189 service. It says it’s operated by Hobson Travel but there is indications that it was operated by First and I’m sure I travelled on this route with First Glasgow a few years back?

 

[Volvodart]

What is the situation with the 189 service. It says it’s operated by Hobson Travel but there is indications that it was operated by First and I’m sure I travelled on this route with First Glasgow a few years back?

It was one of the routes First gave up in February. Hobson's is cancelled from next month, no replacement is known yet.

 

[stevenedin]

It was one of the routes First gave up in February. Hobson's is cancelled from next month, no replacement is known yet.

Thanks for the info hopefully a replacement is found.

 

[PaulMc7]

The 189 and 190 were handy when operated by First but the fact that 4 driver duties were required each evening for them was a major sticking point especially as this affected the reliability of commercial services.

First operating a lot of SPT services is good for the general public as it saves them money from not having to fork out for another operator, but the commercial services have to take priority and I'm honestly fine with it if First stay clear of SPT tenders outwith the 7A and 65. The general level of service has improved in recent weeks and hopefully with continued extensive recruitment, we could be looking at cancellation-free days sooner rather than later.

The new update for the app has also been incredibly handy in my opinion. The time saved by being able to check where every bus service that serves the stop you're at is, instead of having to do it individually, is very noticeable.