First Group: General Discussion

[TheGrandWazoo]

You what I mean, People views are very narrow, there can get on a bus, have crap jounrey and there be like the bus service stinks etc etc it may not be that bad but that how the public see it, it works for all shops, brands, companies. Arriva made sure none the "Cross Country" trains had arriva on them because the company believe the public thought badly of its brand. That is why the weakest link matters.

Doubtless that must be why there is little mention of Stagecoach's stewardship of the East Midlands Trains?

I can't work out what your point actually is but to echo Tom's comments, perhaps it's best to move on!

 

[turboslug]

Every company in the country has a weak part, firsts problems were not caused by its bus division but their US operations which if they had sold or either not bought then it could of been a different story, yes first are having problems in the potteries but arriva have tried numerous times in stoke & sank every time but little was said, ive seen arriva or British bus as was known buy some company's out then let the work go, they bought loftys tours & put it under north western management when some of routes would of been better under crosville wales, they only bought it to stop first buying it, i work for first but in rail division & can see the problems it has but it can be turned around, when they run chester & wirral they had 2 routes between chester & birkenhead & liverpool, 2 & x8, around 2001/2 They withdrew the x8 & replaced it with route 1 liverpool to chester & route 2 ellesmere port to chester, the changes were a huge success route 1increased frequency it was every 10 minutes for a time, now it's a stagecoach gold route performing well, i think their might be more cuts to come from first but i do know especially in the north west arriva have alot more problems

 

[THarris123]

A rather big list of cancellations has gone through Vosa for First today.

Weymouth - 14, 5, X52
West of England - 171, 175
Southampton - 12
Slough - 15, 5, 702, legoland shuttle 200, 10/11

 

[Lrd]

Southampton - 12

Really not surprised by that unfortunately. First absolutely ruined that route. It used to be double deckers every 10 mins cross city.

There's gonna be a lot of areas in Shirley/Millbrook/Lords Hill/Aldermoor with no service now. Especially with the 1 gone. Just so they can copy Bluestar route 18.

Absolutely stupid decisions being made.

 

[Jordan Adam]

On another note First Aberdeen changed the route of the Northern Lights service 18 quite drastically in April this year. Since then it's picked up to the point where the Enviro 300s allocated struggle to cope with loads most of the day. Very high chance that this service may see improvements in the time to come. What does confuse me is that the service finished just after 20:00 and doesn't run Sundays yet it has a Friday/Saturday and Saturday/Sunday night service. I'm pretty sure there is now a strong case mainly for the Muggiemoss section of the route to gain a evening service as there is a high number of affordable new build houses in that area now with high levels of young families.
The 8/9 which were launched last September and extended in April/August are also now picking up although unreliability and low usage at the western end of the route mean that they will be most likely see some significant changes in the near future.
The 8/9 & 18 all serve Tillydrone in addition to the 19 which served it previously and continues to. People at first when the 8/9 was launched and the 18 diverted would stick to the 19 but now it's a case of what ever bus comes first. The area has seen a increase from 5BPH to 9BPH in the past year and most buses leave the area with a near fully seated load (standing loads are not uncommon). Seems like Tillydrone is doing very well for profits. At the other end of the 18 it was extended to serve Cove on every journey in April and that has also seen passenger numbers increase a fair amount. I have doubts though that the section of the 8/9 between Aberdeen Royal Infirmary and Heathryfold will make it past the next service changes in January/February as passenger numbers are far too poor. If they withdrew that section of the route it would allow First to increase layover and running time improving reliability.

On another note First Scotland East are launching a new seasonal service - https://www.firstgroup.com/uploads/maps/S60 160 timetable.pdf

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Really not surprised by that unfortunately. First absolutely ruined that route. It used to be double deckers every 10 mins cross city.

There's gonna be a lot of areas in Shirley/Millbrook/Lords Hill/Aldermoor with no service now. Especially with the 1 gone. Just so they can copy Bluestar route 18.

Absolutely stupid decisions being made.

Desperate decisions rather than stupid decisions?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Really not surprised by that unfortunately. First absolutely ruined that route. It used to be double deckers every 10 mins cross city.

There's gonna be a lot of areas in Shirley/Millbrook/Lords Hill/Aldermoor with no service now. Especially with the 1 gone. Just so they can copy Bluestar route 18.

Absolutely stupid decisions being made.

Sounds like the old Lime Green Line 5 in Aberdeen. Operated every 15 minutes all day and was very popular, Slowly though cuts between 2010 and 2012 passenger numbers fell slightly (Although still good numbers) to the point where 70% of the route was replaced by the hourly 4 in 2012. Due to that move passenger numbers fell even more while putting pressure on other services, in the September 2016 changes the hourly 4 was partially replaced by the far more popular Half hourly 8/9. between September 2012 - August 2017 the 5 varied quite a bit from operating Balnagask - Cragiebuckler, then Balnagask - CityCentre interworking with the 20 and then Balnagask - Northfield. In August this year the remaining 30% of the 5 was replaced by extending the 20 from town to Balnagask. I should mention though the pre 2012 variation of the 5 (Balnagask - Dubford) was plagued with reliability issues due to a tight timetable (although generous layover).

Note that said percentages above are not exact but just a guide.

 

[Blackpudding]

Really not surprised by that unfortunately. First absolutely ruined that route. It used to be double deckers every 10 mins cross city.

There's gonna be a lot of areas in Shirley/Millbrook/Lords Hill/Aldermoor with no service now. Especially with the 1 gone. Just so they can copy Bluestar route 18.

Absolutely stupid decisions being made.

I am sure if it is that good territory Bluestar will step up to the plate just as Reading have done with the 702.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A rather big list of cancellations has gone through Vosa for First today.

Weymouth - 14, 5, X52
West of England - 171, 175
Southampton - 12
Slough - 15, 5, 702, legoland shuttle 200, 10/11

Don’t know about Slough but the Southampton one is very saddening. Not surprised about the X52 (FBB will be cranked up to a frenzy on his blog) though the 5 is odd as it’s a recent introduction; Dorset CC may have to raid the piggy bank.

 

[swifty]

Really not surprised by that unfortunately. First absolutely ruined that route. It used to be double deckers every 10 mins cross city.

There's gonna be a lot of areas in Shirley/Millbrook/Lords Hill/Aldermoor with no service now. Especially with the 1 gone. Just so they can copy Bluestar route 18.

Absolutely stupid decisions being made.

It's a shame what's happened in Southampton and Berkshire. Dorset have also just had emergency fare increases and Simon Newport has left for Yellow Buses. It doesn't look good this winter!

 

[Lrd]

I am sure if it is that good territory Bluestar will step up to the plate just as Reading have done with the 702.

They already did with their new route 5 and then 17 a couple of years ago. Hopefully they'll come to the rescue one more time.

 

[Robertj21a]

It's a shame what's happened in Southampton and Berkshire. Dorset have also just had emergency fare increases and Simon Newport has left for Yellow Buses. It doesn't look good this winter!

I've got a bit lost of late, are First Southampton/Hants and Berkshire now under the same management ?

 

[Blackpudding]

They already did with their new route 5 and then 17 a couple of years ago. Hopefully they'll come to the rescue one more time.

Thanks for the history Lrd. I don't know the area but let's hope they do step in.

 

[Blackpudding]

Don’t know about Slough but the Southampton one is very saddening. Not surprised about the X52 (FBB will be cranked up to a frenzy on his blog) though the 5 is odd as it’s a recent introduction; Dorset CC may have to raid the piggy bank.

As an ex busman I suspect FBB will wonder why it has taken so long. We will see in the morning!

 

[overthewater]

On another note First Scotland East are launching a new seasonal service - https://www.firstgroup.com/uploads/maps/S60 160 timetable.pdf

Just to say there is a Midland Bluebird Thread ( FSE names pretty much died now) with details about other improvements and ongoings etc

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/first-midland-bluebird-improvements.130883/page-10

Tech: the service will operate all year around.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As an ex busman I suspect FBB will wonder why it has taken so long. We will see in the morning!

I'm sure he'll be very strident about it and how First have wrecked the service.

Obviously, Simon Newport has now left and there have been numerous cuts in Dorset, not helped by the poor ENCTS remuneration and fares that were at low levels from the various bus wars. However, there was the very damaging strike last year and you wonder how that has influenced things. I have some sympathy for First Dorset in terms of the congestion in the town; it really is appalling and keeping to time is well nigh impossible in the summer. However, there have been some areas where you can genuinely question some of the thinking. The Slowcoaster was a very curious idea (I couldn't see how it could survive with ENCTS passes) and then poorly executed in terms of publicity. The registering of the 5 when it's never managed to be commercial - were they trying to undermine Damory and so this was always likely?

The oddest thing about Weymouth is that the fleet has actually improved massively over the last few years with new Streetlites, Solos, and the cascaded ex Eclipse Volvos. More investment than I can recall in 30 years.

 

[overthewater]

How will the changes for the Berkshire route affect the new Zonal fare system?

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm sure he'll be very strident about it and how First have wrecked the service.

Obviously, Simon Newport has now left and there have been numerous cuts in Dorset, not helped by the poor ENCTS remuneration and fares that were at low levels from the various bus wars. However, there was the very damaging strike last year and you wonder how that has influenced things. I have some sympathy for First Dorset in terms of the congestion in the town; it really is appalling and keeping to time is well nigh impossible in the summer. However, there have been some areas where you can genuinely question some of the thinking. The Slowcoaster was a very curious idea (I couldn't see how it could survive with ENCTS passes) and then poorly executed in terms of publicity. The registering of the 5 when it's never managed to be commercial - were they trying to undermine Damory and so this was always likely?

The oddest thing about Weymouth is that the fleet has actually improved massively over the last few years with new Streetlites, Solos, and the cascaded ex Eclipse Volvos. More investment than I can recall in 30 years.

The problem with improving the fleet is that it is also a good way of testing out the local market to determine whether it will aid growth - or not. If the decision is that it's not done enough then those same vehicles can, of course, just be reallocated to where the returns are better, and older buses will transfer in. That may, in turn, preface a significant run-down, or closure, in due course. Slippery slopes and all that.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The problem with improving the fleet is that it is also a good way of testing out the local market to determine whether it will aid growth - or not. If the decision is that it's not done enough then those same vehicles can, of course, just be reallocated to where the returns are better, and older buses will transfer in. That may, in turn, preface a significant run-down, or closure, in due course. Slippery slopes and all that.

Given where First have been in recent years, I'd have been surprised that they'd have experimented like that in Weymouth! Aside from vehicles for council supported services (X53), it didn't get anything for >15 years and had some real tat before the investment began. IIRC, FHDB was one of the better performing OpCos - just wonder what damage the strike did last year?

 

[Robertj21a]

Given where First have been in recent years, I'd have been surprised that they'd have experimented like that in Weymouth! Aside from vehicles for council supported services (X53), it didn't get anything for >15 years and had some real tat before the investment began. IIRC, FHDB was one of the better performing OpCos - just wonder what damage the strike did last year?

Perhaps the MD put up a good business case to get the new vehicles - but the strike may have scuppered any chance of on-going returns to a satisfactory level ?

 

[cactustwirly]

A rather big list of cancellations has gone through Vosa for First today.

Weymouth - 14, 5, X52
West of England - 171, 175
Southampton - 12
Slough - 15, 5, 702, legoland shuttle 200, 10/11

The Legoland shuttle route is seasonal, so it'll be back in the summer.
The 10/11 is just Heathrow - Slough, via Wraysbury & Datchet. I wouldn't imagine it's heavily used.
The 15 is Windsor - Slough via Eton Wick, affluent areas I wouldn't imagine that it's heavily used as well.

Obviously we know about the 702

The 5 is Slough to Cippenham, I'm a bit surprised about this one.

 

[Andyh82]

Of course who is to say there won't be other new or revised services registered in the days to come.

 

[Blackpudding]

I'm sure he'll be very strident about it and how First have wrecked the service.

Obviously, Simon Newport has now left and there have been numerous cuts in Dorset, not helped by the poor ENCTS remuneration and fares that were at low levels from the various bus wars. However, there was the very damaging strike last year and you wonder how that has influenced things. I have some sympathy for First Dorset in terms of the congestion in the town; it really is appalling and keeping to time is well nigh impossible in the summer. However, there have been some areas where you can genuinely question some of the thinking. The Slowcoaster was a very curious idea (I couldn't see how it could survive with ENCTS passes) and then poorly executed in terms of publicity. The registering of the 5 when it's never managed to be commercial - were they trying to undermine Damory and so this was always likely?

The oddest thing about Weymouth is that the fleet has actually improved massively over the last few years with new Streetlites, Solos, and the cascaded ex Eclipse Volvos. More investment than I can recall in 30 years.

I'm not sure anyone can argue that First have wrecked the X52. They invested in and promoted the service prior to the ENCTS. Nobody should expect First to subsidise the farebox post ENCTS. A good summary of the overall situation and it is only when you see it in black and white that the 'desperate decisions' as expressed by Baxenden Bank earlier seems apt. Mind been there done that. We can all look back over our working life and wonder at some of the decisions we made with the best intentions. That decisions have to be made and are being made is what matters to the business - reality is really striking home. We don't have to like the decisions but more pain is inevitable before it gets better.

 

[overthewater]

A rather big list of cancellations has gone through Vosa for First today.

Weymouth - 14, 5, X52
West of England - 171, 175
Southampton - 12
Slough - 15, 5, 702, legoland shuttle 200, 10/11

For Southampton area: just pointing people in the direction since there turn up on the blogs.
Reaction can be seen here: http://sotonbus.blogspot.co.uk

https://www.firstgroup.com/southamp...ws/first-southampton-announce-service-changes

First Southampton is making service changes on Saturday 20 January 2018, which will affect services City Red 2, The Three, City Red 7, 8, 9, 12 and 13.

City Red 2 will operate between Millbrook, Shirley and Southampton city centre, but will not continue to Bitterne and Thornhill. Passengers from Thornhill can use The Three for journeys to the city centre and those in Bitterne can use service 8.

There will be minor timetable changes to The Three, City Red 7 and services 8, 9 and 13 to improve punctuality.

Service 12 is being withdrawn. However, passengers in Lords Hill can use The Three from Lords Hill Way, as opposed to Aldermoor Road. Whereas passengers in Millbrook can still access City Red 2, which also operates from many of the same bus stops to get to the city centre.

We’ve made considerable efforts to keep service 12 operating for many years, despite it facing declining patronage, increasing operational costs and no financial support from local authorities. As this route was operated on a commercial basis, it was kept on the road exclusively from the fares passengers paid. We understand that some passengers might be frustrated by this change, but in most cases the route it is duplicated by either the City Red 2 or The Three. What’s more, the parts that are unique to route 12 are only a short walk away from other bus services.

The other changes we are making to our network come after extensively reviewing the passenger usage data and from travelling the routes to conduct primary research. These changes will better reflect the level of demand for our services and still offer ample opportunities for passengers to make their desired journeys.

The new timetable are available to download below, these only relate to the days being changed:

First Southampton City Red 2 timetable .pdf

First Southampton The Three timetable.pdf

First Southampton City Red 7 timetable.pdf

First Southampton route 8 timetable.pdf

First Southampton route 9 timetable.pdf

First Southampton route 13 timetable.pdf

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

For Southampton area: just pointing people in the direction since there turn up on the blogs.
Reaction can be seen here: http://sotonbus.blogspot.co.uk

https://www.firstgroup.com/southamp...ws/first-southampton-announce-service-changes

The Sotonbus blog is full of GSC devotees. Stop being so daft!!

 

[baza585]

The Sotonbus blog is full of GSC devotees. Stop being so daft!!

Indeed, despite an occasional effort on my part to bring balance and/or realism, it is so biased it is laughable. I don't bother any more. Good job they don't live in East Anglia, West Midlands or GTR land where GA have made a complete Horlicks of their business.

 

[overthewater]

Duly noted.

 

[Goldfish62]

I've got a bit lost of late, are First Southampton/Hants and Berkshire now under the same management ?

Yes. Berkshire was transferred to Hants when First pulled out of London.

 

[DragonEast]

Having last posted to accuse First of losing the plot - wrong - I wonder if there is a chance they might be transferring assets to the East, where perhaps they have a prospect of finishing the job and delivering a knock out blow to Go-Ahead (and where Stagecoach and Arriva are less active, outside their neighbouring strongholds which are, of course, going places - without both First and G-A), from the South Central (if I can describe is as that) where they languish as also-rans and G-A seem quite fit and well? And, of course, G-A vice versa. The trouble with this competition lark, despite the theory, is that it's very inefficient and wasteful, and costs a lot. (Like free trade, I suspect).

Of course I realise that if you're going to pick a fight, choose someone your own size (or smaller); but in terms of strategy looking for somewhere going places in modern Britain, would I really choose the East Coast and South Essex rather than Southern England? I doubt it. But then, beggars can't be choosers; I suppose!

 

[overthewater]

Go ahead seems to be very hit and miss of the past few years, there keep winning awards yet at the same time make stupid purchase, and also operate some highly questionable companies Likes thames travel (Which I have mentioned before on this forum) There never seems to be any middle ground with them it's either outstanding or crap. Which when compared to First, I dare say the question will be why has the "crap" areas not been over hyped.