First Group: General Discussion

[tbtc]

No-one predicted that one, did they?

I certainly didn't!

Surprising after selling the Wigan operations that they are investing elsewhere in Greater Manchester.

So after Bluebird became part of Stagecoach, BlueBus became part of Arriva and Finglands becomes part of First (and UK North became part of the history books), who will be the biggest "independent" in Greater Manchester?

(I know - "biggest independent" sounds like a horrible contradiction, like the shortest tall person)

 

[overthewater]

Who is that another independent operator that might disappear? Last week there was talk of two disappearing now has gone...

 

[tbtc]

The other point to note is the very low cost of aquisition - only £50000. Only the depot & routes are transferring to first - the buses will not be taken on other than in the short term

This is surprising - I thought that First would be looking to cut routes in some places to avoid the need to replace their oldest stock with new buses.

Now we find them potentially needing to find forty one vehicles to replace the Finglands fleet (assuming that the PVRs remain the same, which they probably won't) - that stretches resources even thinner and probably means less chance of seeing the fifteen year old Darts (etc) get scrapped.

 

[radamfi]

So after Bluebird became part of Stagecoach, BlueBus became part of Arriva and Finglands becomes part of First (and UK North became part of the history books), who will be the biggest "independent" in Greater Manchester?

JPT or South Lancs Travel?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This is surprising - I thought that First would be looking to cut routes in some places to avoid the need to replace their oldest stock with new buses.

Now we find them potentially needing to find forty one vehicles to replace the Finglands fleet (assuming that the PVRs remain the same, which they probably won't) - that stretches resources even thinner and probably means less chance of seeing the fifteen year old Darts (etc) get scrapped.

Potentially is the word... the fact is that they've got the option of hiring the fleet for so long. Then you've got the potential for a bit of route rationalisation...perhaps Stagecoach could do similar with their Bluebird ops? Excuse the cynicism!

Besides, First have got to lose the 15 year old Darts anyway....the spectre of DDA looms large!!

 

[tbtc]

Potentially is the word... the fact is that they've got the option of hiring the fleet for so long. Then you've got the potential for a bit of route rationalisation...perhaps Stagecoach could do similar with their Bluebird ops? Excuse the cynicism!

Besides, First have got to lose the 15 year old Darts anyway....the spectre of DDA looms large!!

Of course I wasn't suggesting any "you scratch my back by withdrawing those ex-independent routes in my half of Manchester and I'll scratch your back by withdrawing those ex-independent routes in your half of Manchester" - perish the thought that anyone would be so cynical

Given the numbers of fifteen year old Darts, I was expecting First to cut routes/ PVRs (like they did in South Yorkshire when finding a way of scrapping the high floor B10Ms) instead of taking on extra services (okay - 41 buses is chicken feed compared to the size of FirstGroup).

Still very surprised at the news.

 

[WatcherZero]

The acquisition of Finglands has come as something of a bolt out of the blue! I have friends who work for First & even tey seem to have been suprised by this one?

The other point to note is the very low cost of aquisition - only £50000. Only the depot & routes are transferring to first - the buses will not be taken on other than in the short term.

I suspect a profitable move for First, though they may be tempted to slim down some of their less profitable operations in the Greater Manchester area in the future?

Depot is leased as well, sounds from the press release details like they are picking up a company in trouble or EYMS Group selling off non core operations for a bargain (did they take a decision it wasnt cost effective to renew their fleet?). Perhaps First are just interested in aquiring the routes to add critical mass to their existing operation? Are they suffering from overcapacity or recently lost tendered work in Manchester?

Looking at the website in the last week they seem to have lost the 525, 527 and evening 571, 572 contracts.

Dont get much from Finglands website, looks like it hasnt been updated since January.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Of course I wasn't suggesting any "you scratch my back by withdrawing those ex-independent routes in my half of Manchester and I'll scratch your back by withdrawing those ex-independent routes in your half of Manchester" - perish the thought that anyone would be so cynical

Given the numbers of fifteen year old Darts, I was expecting First to cut routes/ PVRs (like they did in South Yorkshire when finding a way of scrapping the high floor B10Ms) instead of taking on extra services (okay - 41 buses is chicken feed compared to the size of FirstGroup).

Still very surprised at the news.

Suspect it's an opportunistic move though surprised that they've sold to First; you might have thought that Arriva would've been a more willing buyer though they've been very quiet since the DB takeover on the acquisition front.

I guess £50k is chicken feed. Suspect that EY have been looking to offload Finglands and that the exit costs for outright closure would've been chunky (e.g. redundancy, outstanding depot lease). Instead of a cost of £x thousand, they get to walk away with £50k and redeploy (potentially) the vehicles to remove the last step floor deckers from the main fleet.

First can then look to move the ops into Queens Road (I'd guess) and strike a deal with the landlord on the lease termination.

 

[Sandy Drew]

First are merely buying a handful of bus service registrations and taking on the staff who work them. Not the company or any assets. EYMS still own Finglands. It is also a quality coach operator as well as a bus operator.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

First are merely buying a handful of bus service registrations and taking on the staff who work them. Not the company or any assets. EYMS still own Finglands. It is also a quality coach operator as well as a bus operator.

Quite so. It is the bus side only that First have bought, and even then, just the bus service registrations.

Not knowing the Finglands operations that well these days, do the coach operations reside at the Rusholme depot or elsewhere? After all, First are taking on the lease so does that mean the coach ops will need to move?

 

[radamfi]

Finglands, Walls, Mayne and Bullocks are all coach firms in the Manchester area that diversified into local buses and all have now sold their bus businesses to Stagecoach or First.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Finglands, Walls, Mayne and Bullocks are all coach firms in the Manchester area that diversified into local buses and all have now sold their bus businesses to Stagecoach or First.

3 of those were ones that diversified following deregulation.

However, Maynes were a long standing firm from before the road traffic act of 1930 and GMPTE would've loved to have bought them up (in the same way that SYPTE did around their patch). Fair to say that they expanded but they were always a bus firm - one of the few independents that bought new VRs

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

JPT or South Lancs Travel?

Is it true that D & G have some connection of sorts with South Lancs Travel ?

 

[overthewater]

How many london Double deckers due first still own after the sell off?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Finglands, Walls, Mayne and Bullocks are all coach firms in the Manchester area that diversified into local buses and all have now sold their bus businesses to Stagecoach or First.

Mayne Coaches are now in their 92nd year and many will remember their bus operations depot on Ashton New Road that saw their long-established East Manchester services running as late as 2008.

They still have coach operations facilities in Manchester in Fairclough Street and in Warrington in Marsh House Lane, which I think grew out of their acquisition in the early 1980's of Barry Cooper Coaches, which then became fully integrated into the Mayne Group in 1998.

 

[starrymarkb]

3rd attack on First Devon in 3 days - Plymouth Citybus are going to start serving Torpoint in October.... This is in addition to their competing service to Tavistock, and Stagecoach's newly announced Gold Service to Torquay

 

[cainebj]

How many london Double deckers due first still own after the sell off?

I don't know if this is still the case, but at the end of June Dagenham had:
1x Vreg Trident/President H43/24D
4x Wreg Trident/President H43/24D
1x Xreg Trident/President H39/23D
1x 51reg Trident/President H42/23D
1x 02reg Trident/President H39/20D
3x 52reg Trident/President H39/20D
6x 53reg Trident/ALX400 H42/21D
11x 53reg B7TL/Gemini H38/21D
1x 04reg B7TL/Gemini H38/21D
4x 08reg ADL Enviro 400 H41/26D
31x 58reg ADL Enviro 400 H41/26D

 

[Rich McLean]

3rd attack on First Devon in 3 days - Plymouth Citybus are going to start serving Torpoint in October.... This is in addition to their competing service to Tavistock, and Stagecoach's newly announced Gold Service to Torquay

This is becoming quite amusing

 

[overthewater]

To be fair most of the routes are not where the money is?

I don't know if this is still the case, but at the end of June Dagenham had:
1x Vreg Trident/President H43/24D
4x Wreg Trident/President H43/24D
1x Xreg Trident/President H39/23D
1x 51reg Trident/President H42/23D
1x 02reg Trident/President H39/20D
3x 52reg Trident/President H39/20D
6x 53reg Trident/ALX400 H42/21D
11x 53reg B7TL/Gemini H38/21D
1x 04reg B7TL/Gemini H38/21D
4x 08reg ADL Enviro 400 H41/26D
31x 58reg ADL Enviro 400 H41/26D

That 35 buses which could get refurbished and sent else where maybe Manchester the rest I cant see getting refurbished. Saying that would first buy more Second hand deckers just to help clear out the rubbish?

 

[winston270twm]

Is it true that D & G have some connection of sorts with South Lancs Travel ?

D&G own South Lancs Travel

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

D&G own South Lancs Travel

Thanks for that clarification. Have D & G themselves ever been the subject of any possible takeover interest from large fleet operators in recent times ?

 

[swifty]

Julian Peddle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Peddle) is involved with both companies, the associated Liyell Ltd, (Midland/Choice Travel), sold out to Arriva last year.

 

[RPI]

3rd attack on First Devon in 3 days - Plymouth Citybus are going to start serving Torpoint in October.... This is in addition to their competing service to Tavistock, and Stagecoach's newly announced Gold Service to Torquay

But also announced (officially) today that first have been awarded the 5 year contract to run the Truro park and ride.
To be fair first have started fighting back in Plymouth by reducing fares on all the routes where PCB are trying to get in on.

 

[Surreyman]

This is becoming quite amusing

Alex Carter must be wondering what he has let himself in for?
Why don't Stagecoach/Go-Ahead make him a job offer he can't refuse, the only way First in Plymouth can fight back is by losing shed loads of money, which I can't see Aberdeen allowing.

 

[winston270twm]

Julian Peddle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Peddle) is involved with both companies, the associated Liyell Ltd, (Midland/Choice Travel), sold out to Arriva last year.

Additionally, D&G have sold much of their original bus business to Arriva which has been absorbed in to Wardle's & only retain the Crewe garage/operation

 

[swifty]

Alex Carter must be wondering what he has let himself in for?
Why don't Stagecoach/Go-Ahead make him a job offer he can't refuse, the only way First in Plymouth can fight back is by losing shed loads of money, which I can't see Aberdeen allowing.

Ah but Alex has been appointed to FDC to do things his way, not Firsts way, so hopefully he'll come up with something!

 

[overthewater]

A question about Plymouth.

I have heard the fleet is a bit run down, so I have to ask where are those 20 Shortbase E200, which were transferred from Lanarkshire? I will never understand why there brought so much of the useless things, not even lasting a year because there were to small.

 

[swifty]

A question about Plymouth.

I have heard the fleet is a bit run down, so I have to ask where are those 20 Shortbase E200, which were transferred from Lanarkshire? I will never understand why there brought so much of the useless things, not even lasting a year because there were to small.

9 came straight to Bristol from Glasgow in exchange for 9 B7RLEs from Bath, the other 8 went to Plymouth in exchange for another 8 B7RLEs. These 8 then went to Swansea to cover for additional work from Veolia in 2011 and then ended up with the rest in Bristol soon after. They're due to be replaced by new Streetlites soon.

 

[overthewater]

9 came straight to Bristol from Glasgow in exchange for 9 B7RLEs from Bath, the other 8 went to Plymouth in exchange for another 8 B7RLEs. These 8 then went to Swansea to cover for additional work from Veolia in 2011 and then ended up with the rest in Bristol soon after. They're due to be replaced by new Streetlites soon.

Thanks for that, So I wonder where the 17 E200 while end up next?

 

[swifty]

Thanks for that, So I wonder where the 17 E200 while end up next?

More than likely see of the remaining step/non DDA Darts within Bristol & Avon as part of a cascade.