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First Group rail branding

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Class377/5

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While FCC's performance improved towards the end of their franchise, their train and station presentation, customer information strategy, etc. were appalling. FCC's trains were grubby inside and out, and the stations were grim, foreboding environments, added an extra dystopian air by the automatic announcements about "First Capital Connect [being] pleased to announce that crime has fallen by over forty per cent!"

And running a DOO service that serves two international airports without a PIS, and without even bothering to make sure station signs lined up with train windows - that's basically inexcusable.

Not saying the current incumbent operator is any better (they're not) but FCC's shabby, poor VfM reputation is well deserved.

They weren't allowed to put PIS on the units as the money for upgrading the unit want there as the new fleet was expected sooner than it will now arrive meaning there was no way to get the money. Same with station improvements, remember that also had to be authorised by the DfT.

Not sure you'd find many TOCs lining station names up with train windows and the simple fact on some station on FCC (assuming you mean the ones FCC controlled) it was impossible as different train lengths and configurations made that impossible without filling the station with signs.
 
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R

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Were FCC bad? When about 70% of the issues were caused by NR, not sure I actually agree with that. Then again facts are often ignored on here.

I don't live on the Bedford route so can only comment on issues that I have heard and seen, several times during the franchise there was driver strikes on that route, dirty trains with sick all over the seats from the night before, last minute announcements for platform changes as the train in question is pulling away and not to mention the passengers that are left behind on a daily basis as they can't fit onto the train, if you don't believe me see for yourself on youtube
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh also was it them that got fined £75k over the broken down train where 700 passengers were stranded for hours,
 

Class377/5

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I don't live on the Bedford route so can only comment on issues that I have heard and seen, several times during the franchise there was driver strikes on that route, dirty trains with sick all over the seats from the night before, last minute announcements for platform changes as the train in question is pulling away and not to mention the passengers that are left behind on a daily basis as they can't fit onto the train, if you don't believe me see for yourself on youtube
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh also was it them that got fined £75k over the broken down train where 700 passengers were stranded for hours,

* Passengers left behind was because DfT were ordering stock so FCC weren't allowed to get more stock for the route.
* Sick on trains is partly because of passenger action and fact there's only been one depot at Bedford with no facilities to clean trains elsewhere. Something that has since been looked into and now trains are cancelled if found to be in an unfit state where possible, even if it leaves large gaps in the service.
* Last minute platform changes is due to NR signallers not telling TOC staff in time as most junctions are just outside stations so the nationally used train detection can only see a train once it's in platform
* There was never a driver strike on FCC, there was working to rule however (very different things). The depenance on working overtime is done by the whole industry, it keeps costs down.
* As for the train, well I'm not permitted to state anything about that.

As for your five points, two aren't FCC responsibility (it just gets the blame), one is passenger action, one is false claim on your behalf and other I can't comment on.
 

jon0844

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If you think facts are ignored on here, have a listen to the public. In the public's eye, FCC were awful, always late, always overcrowded, charged far too much money for tickets etc. Whilst those who know better recognise that FCC were a good operator, let down by NR, the general public just see the name on the train and in their bank statement and vent anger accordingly.

It's somewhat ironic that the TL side had the most vocal complaints, from people who probably argued about paying huge fares and wondering what they got for their money. From day one of FCC to the end, it's clear to see just how much work has been going on.

Meanwhile, the work at King's Cross and other stations on the GN side weren't exactly tiny.
 

bramling

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It's somewhat ironic that the TL side had the most vocal complaints, from people who probably argued about paying huge fares and wondering what they got for their money. From day one of FCC to the end, it's clear to see just how much work has been going on.

Meanwhile, the work at King's Cross and other stations on the GN side weren't exactly tiny.

From the point of view of the GN side, I can't really complain too much about FCC.

Going back to Prism days, the trains were always been turned out in an acceptable condition, and the service generally reliable. Under Prism, the franchise suffered from driver shortages, and quite bad off-peak crowding due mainly to the practice of almost always running 4-car trains off-peak. Like other railways things got worse after the Hatfield accident.

In my view, GN improved massively under National Express, with the service becoming ultra-reliable and punctual to the point where, in my experience, you could almost set your watch by it, the trains continued to be turned out in an acceptable state, and they started a trend of off-peak trains generally getting lengthened. Under FCC this continued, with successive timetables delivering worthwhile improvements. Stations were also generally tidied up. FCC also successfully implemented the revised peak timetable, with the 321s being seamlessly integrated into the fleet, and generally the 365 fleet remaining reliable and well turned out despite being intensively worked. Compared to other London TOCs, I have always found FCC's 313s, 317s, 321s and 365s very well turned out - not perfect, but generally very acceptable. Successive timetables delivered worthwhile improvements, longer formations both peak and off-peak. This was against a background of increasing numbers of services on a very congested infrastructure, that they managed to, more-or-less, maintain timekeeping is deserving of praise. As a real-world measure of this, the service has been so punctual since the mid-2000s that I can reliably get the latest possible train to get to work, and virtually never be late.

For me, the only negatives to FCC were the widespread implementation of ticket barriers, though I think I'm right in saying this was partly DFT-led. To be fair, it has presumably reduced fare evasion. Also they did go through a period of having cancellations due to driver shortages, particularly having a nasty habit of having short-notice early-morning cancellations at weekends. But never a massive issue when compared to some issues on other TOCs. Generally where disruption has occurred (normally not the fault of FCC) it has been acceptably or even well handled.

Under Govia, I'd say things have declined perceptively. I've noticed defects with individual trains which still seem to be there next time I ride on that particular unit. Performance seems to have slipped slightly, but the worst thing is that on the (still comparatively few) occasions when the job has gone up the wall, my feeling has been that things have been badly handled. There have been a couple of evenings of disruption where station staff at King's Cross clearly had absolutely no idea what was happening with the train service.

I have no recent experience of the Thameslink side, however when I did use it regularly in the late 1990s I always found it gave the impression of a tired operation, always plagued by poorly turned-out trains and comparatively large amounts of late running. From reading posts here and elsewhere, this seems to still be the situation today. Given the obvious difference between the two operations, it's not hard to see why I'd rather keep Great Northern separate from Thameslink. I don't want to see Great Northern importing Thameslink's issues.
 
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DarloRich

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I don't really have a [problem with First my main interaction with them is via TPE or previously via Scotrail and both seem to be well run decent operators. My FGW dealings have also been good, although less often.

Since they've just agreed a franchise extension for FGW and are ordering new Hitachi A300 trains it seems unlikely they'd be trying to sell FGW. Also, I think they are involved in bidding for other franchises.

Corporate branding is something that comes and goes. A new CEO or Chairman may ask "Why doesn't this company have a corporate brand?", and everyone rushes round saying "What a brilliant idea, sir, why yes, this will really make the public think we are just wonderful." Remember how, when Richard Bowker became CEO of National Express, they started corporate branding on their buses and trains? The thing that looked like Waitrose. Similarly, when a controlling group's reputation isn't great, debranding and some degree of new local identities may seem to be a way out of the problems.

Either way, it gives an impression that things are being done, which is useful when the things that really ought to be done are just too difficult.

My word that is terribly cynical, accurate and true!
 
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DaiGog

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In my view, the First brand is not a strong one and there is considerable gain to be made by using local identities which people can relate to and employees can take pride in.

As for VTEC's trains being superior to HT's 180s, I couldn't disagree more. I find the 180's seats more comfortable and spacious, they line up with the windows, you can see over the top of them so the atmosphere is not claustrophobic, you don't get a numb bum after two hours like you do with the Mallard refurbished VTEC trains, and there is more legroom. There is a good mix of tables and airline seats in both. As regards being underfloor engined, the 180 is arguably the best in its class in terms of general noise intrusion (especially at the ends of the vehicle), they don't usually rattle noticeably and they are far superior to the Voyager in just about every aspect - the exception being they do get very warm in the vestibule ends (but that said, the toilets don't stink as much as a Voyager!)
 

lincolnshire

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In my view, the First brand is not a strong one and there is considerable gain to be made by using local identities which people can relate to and employees can take pride in.

As for VTEC's trains being superior to HT's 180s, I couldn't disagree more. I find the 180's seats more comfortable and spacious, they line up with the windows, you can see over the top of them so the atmosphere is not claustrophobic, you don't get a numb bum after two hours like you do with the Mallard refurbished VTEC trains, and there is more legroom. There is a good mix of tables and airline seats in both. As regards being underfloor engined, the 180 is arguably the best in its class in terms of general noise intrusion (especially at the ends of the vehicle), they don't usually rattle noticeably and they are far superior to the Voyager in just about every aspect - the exception being they do get very warm in the vestibule ends (but that said, the toilets don't stink as much as a Voyager!)

Very much agree with the top comment, I too think they would be better off renaming its rail francises like been just Hull Trains and going back to its old green colour as I think it looked very classy and individual when there first purpose built trains arrived especially they stood out arriving at Kings Cross.

Also as above there trains are far superior to Virgin Trains East Coast,s stock and seats. Hull Trains is always well turned out inside and out. I travelled back from Kings Cross on Tuesday night on VTEC and was glad to get off at Doncaster as my rear end was aching after sitting on them crap seats, seats on pacers are better than them or even a wooden bench would be better.
If there is a choice of trains at Doncaster I would rather wait and travel on a Hull trains or Grand Central any day to Kings Cross.

Someone earlier commented about not many tgravelling on there services, well the other day the first train of the day to London was nearly full throughout on leaving Doncaster.

So it would maybe pay First to revamp its image and and make each company look individual instead of been part of a corprate outfit and that each company looks after its customers as individuals travelling on there own local companies train, just like Hull trains did at the start of there set up.

Anybody can be a Virgin Branded outfit as long as you pay your quota to of money to the Virgin Marketing outfit, but sometimes big branded outfits are not always best.

My advice to First is get your act together and re bid for West Coast but not under First but under an new named company owned by First working on the model of Hull Tains at the start of there service.

Good luck to them and all ther franchises as not everything has to be red and corparate styled.
 

Tetchytyke

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There was never a driver strike on FCC, there was working to rule however (very different things). The depenance on working overtime is done by the whole industry, it keeps costs down.

As for the train, well I'm not permitted to state anything about that.

As for your five points, two aren't FCC responsibility (it just gets the blame), one is passenger action, one is false claim on your behalf and other I can't comment on.

The trouble with reputation is, of course, that it is about perception. If everyone perceives a company to be incompetent money-grabbers, then they have two choices: do something about it, or wibble about how it's everyone else's fault and not theirs.

I've highlighted two important bits though.

Firstly, it was industrial action that caused widespread delays and cancellation, including (in)famously stopping war veterans getting to the Cenotaph on Armistice Day. Whether this was a strike, a "strike", or work to rule doesn't really matter.

Secondly, the failure of the train showed systematic and categorical failures within FCC's command and control structure, mostly due to incompetent penny-pinching. Simply telling people that things have changed doesn't really cut the mustard.

Most people believe the name on the side of the train influences what that train will be and how it will be run. First run overcrowded cattle trucks, so people expected West Coast to also be run with overcrowded cattle trucks. That's the way it is; people like my colleague (who was astounded Pendolinos weren't running on the ECML now "Virgin" had the contract) influence a reputation. Wibbling about how they're ignorant or WRONG WRONG I TELL YOU doesn't really help sort out the reputation.

It is telling that First have never really strongly pushed Hull Trains as a First company, being content to let it do its own thing and be a local company for East Yorkshire.
 
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Bletchleyite

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My advice to First is get your act together and re bid for West Coast but not under First but under an new named company owned by First working on the model of Hull Tains at the start of there service.

Two points there.

1. They were allegedly *not* going to use First branding.

2. You can't work the WCML (9tph) on the same model as Hull Trains (a few trains per day). It's just not even similar. That said, VWC are very good at train cleaning and the Pendolinos aren't bad trains (though remember First would have been using them as well).
 

TheNewNo2

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As for VTEC's trains being superior to HT's 180s, I couldn't disagree more. I find the 180's seats more comfortable and spacious, they line up with the windows, you can see over the top of them so the atmosphere is not claustrophobic, you don't get a numb bum after two hours like you do with the Mallard refurbished VTEC trains, and there is more legroom.


Glad I'm not the only one to dislike seats on the East Coast!
 

Class377/5

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The trouble with reputation is, of course, that it is about perception. If everyone perceives a company to be incompetent money-grabbers, then they have two choices: do something about it, or wibble about how it's everyone else's fault and not theirs.

I've highlighted two important bits though.

Firstly, it was industrial action that caused widespread delays and cancellation, including (in)famously stopping war veterans getting to the Cenotaph on Armistice Day. Whether this was a strike, a "strike", or work to rule doesn't really matter.

Secondly, the failure of the train showed systematic and categorical failures within FCC's command and control structure, mostly due to incompetent penny-pinching. Simply telling people that things have changed doesn't really cut the mustard.

Most people believe the name on the side of the train influences what that train will be and how it will be run. First run overcrowded cattle trucks, so people expected West Coast to also be run with overcrowded cattle trucks. That's the way it is; people like my colleague (who was astounded Pendolinos weren't running on the ECML now "Virgin" had the contract) influence a reputation. Wibbling about how they're ignorant or WRONG WRONG I TELL YOU doesn't really help sort out the reputation.

It is telling that First have never really strongly pushed Hull Trains as a First company, being content to let it do its own thing and be a local company for East Yorkshire.

Agree on most of your post however my 'wibbling' was aimed as the more informed people on here. The public generally can't be arsed to get its facts corrects but that doesn't mean their view is valid especially if they are getting thing wrong. That's my personal opinion.
 

lincolnshire

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No, they are utterly terrible and give me back pain after 5 minutes. The seat squab slopes the wrong way. I avoid EC for that reason.

May be someone from Virgin Trains East Coast ( Stagecoach 90% Virgin Group 10%) may see these post and ask there rolling stock provider to do something about them under the proposed revamp of the interior. As who will be paying for that then VTEC themselves or the ROSCO under new / amended leasing terms. How complicated life has become.

Until it happens we are stuck with hard crap seats.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Quote from a previous post above
Most people believe the name on the side of the train influences what that train will be and how it will be run. First run overcrowded cattle trucks, so people expected West Coast to also be run with overcrowded cattle trucks. That's the way it is; people like my colleague (who was astounded Pendolinos weren't running on the ECML now "Virgin" had the contract) influence a reputation. Wibbling about how they're ignorant or WRONG WRONG I TELL YOU doesn't really help sort out the reputation.

It also helps if the media department at Virgin and Legal departments get in top gear and run a campaign about how wrong it was to award the West Coast franchise to First and it was flawed etc etc. That was not First,s fault they just tendered as per tender document.

But somebody somewhere was giving the impression out that all the new shiny Pendolinos painted in red would be rounded up and put away in a shed and out of another shed would come all the old stock and loco,s to run the service for First.

What should have happened is to be fair to everyone the service should have been put in the hands of Direct Operated Railways till it was re-tendered under the revised franchise set up to still arrive.
 
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edwin_m

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Not really as its not based on fact but incorrect guesswork.

Issues like branding are all about how the public perceives a company and its products, so even if you think it is wrong the public's perception is much more important than the reality.

If done right and associated with a good product it will reinforce success and may cross-sell other products with the same brand. However a poor product can "poison" a brand, examples being when VT and Northern re-painted their inherited WCML fleet without doing much to improve the interiors or the other fairly poor aspects of the service.
 

Class377/5

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Issues like branding are all about how the public perceives a company and its products, so even if you think it is wrong the public's perception is much more important than the reality.

If done right and associated with a good product it will reinforce success and may cross-sell other products with the same brand. However a poor product can "poison" a brand, examples being when VT and Northern re-painted their inherited WCML fleet without doing much to improve the interiors or the other fairly poor aspects of the service.

Doesn't change what I wrote about.
 

JaJaWa

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Remember how, when Richard Bowker became CEO of National Express, they started corporate branding on their buses and trains? The thing that looked like Waitrose.

Where on earth did Waitrose come from!? Tesco Value if anything.
 

Skimble19

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Saw one of the Hull Trains units today with First logos removed.. Seemed like they were removing the entire thing though rather than just the First
 

JaJaWa

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Saw one of the Hull Trains units today with First logos removed.. Seemed like they were removing the entire thing though rather than just the First

Hull Trains in the new logo is in a different font so they're probably replacing the whole bit of vinyl
 
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