First Transpennine Express

[danfitz123]

Hi,
I was just looking on the ATOC website and noticed that First lose the transpennine express franchise in January 2012. Any talk of who is taking over, or is first keeping it longer than thought? Thanks

 

[First ScotRail]

Discussions still in progress with DFT and First/Kelios over extension possibility.

 

[danfitz123]

Discussions still in progress with DFT and First/Kelios over extension possibility.

I hope they lose it. They charge way too much for tickets

 

[YorkshireBear]

I hope they lose it. They charge way too much for tickets

got to disagree with you there i always find FTPE very reasonable in offering me good advance tickets. And also on all their routes even the standard tickets i dont find too steep.

 

[danfitz123]

Liverpool South Parkway-York= £26.00
Liverpool Lime Street-London Euston= £23.00

Its cheaper to go further?????????

 

[185]

Announcement in the next few weeks.


Allegedly.

 

[AlterEgo]

Liverpool South Parkway-York= £26.00
Liverpool Lime Street-London Euston= £23.00

Its cheaper to go further?????????

Cheapest possible ticket from Liverpool S Pwy to York is £9.00.

Cheapest possible ticket from Liverpool Lime St to London is £11.50.

They're subject to availability, of course.

 

[185]

Think id:danfitz123 means on the day tickets. Not hard-to-find-quota-limited advance tickets and TPE really do have low quotas.

 

[snail]

Think id:danfitz123 means on the day tickets. Not hard-to-find-quota-limited advance tickets and TPE really do have low quotas.

Not surprising if you compare a 185 to a Pendolino!

 

[danfitz123]

Cheapest ticket from Liverpool S Pwy to York is £9.00.

Cheapest ticket from Liverpool Lime St to London is £11.50.

Sorry, I mean return. Liverpool-London return = £5 more to go 92 miles further. I dont get it?

 

[alexf380]

185s are far too small for Man Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh.
Standing room only last weds coming up from Manchester. Nowhere to keep suitcases.

 

[sprinterguy]

If the contract were to finish in January 2012, the DfT would have had to have been a fair way through the retendering process by now. The DfT are still finalising the details of Rail Franchising Version 3 as far as I'm aware and as such are minded to give the agreed franchise extensions in most cases. West Coast and Anglia should be the first retendered franchises operating under the new system.

The TPE franchise extension should see it running until 31st January 2017, and I can't see any reason why First shouldn't be awarded an extension: I think they are doing an excellent job of operating the Transpennine franchise.

I also think that their ticket pricing is very reasonable. Don't the TOCs only have limited control over the prices they can set for on the day tickets anyway? I think that their walk-up fares compare very reasonable with other comparable flows priced by other TOCs, and as for advance fares I am often spoilt for choice of trains offering £5.95 and £6.95 York to Manchester Picc advance singles, even when booking less than a week in advance. TPEs' £12.85 Newcastle to Manchester Picc advance singles also compare very favourably with the next best option of using a mix of Grand Central (from Sunderland) or East Coast as far as York plus TPE onwards and taking advantage of their cheap advances.

 

[snail]

185s are far too small for Man Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh.
Standing room only last weds coming up from Manchester. Nowhere to keep suitcases.

Absolutely agree. But in defence of TPE, it's not entirely their fault as they specified 4-car units but were knocked back to 3-car by DafT. The design of the first class/disabled access area could have been better thought out though, to get a few more seats in.

Hopefully sense will prevail when the electrification scheme is completed with higher capacity trains provided on the Scotland route.

 

[sprinterguy]

Absolutely agree. But in defence of TPE, it's not entirely their fault as they specified 4-car units but were knocked back to 3-car by DafT.

...Before the DafT then added the Manchester to Scotland services to the TPE franchise, despite reducing the 185 order from 60 to 51 units and failing to sanction the additional fourth vehicle for the trains! Madness.

 

[185]

The TPE franchise extension should see it running until 31st January 2017, and I can't see any reason why First shouldn't be awarded an extension: I think they are doing an excellent job of operating the Transpennine franchise.

A good film to watch is V for Vendetta, where a shower of idiots in charge do anything they can releasing 'good news' press releases covering up some of their very serious shortcomings.

Telling members of staff not to call the emergency services, instead to ring their control centre is just one example, made worse by queues of 5 minutes to get through. They were desperate to avoid train delays and keep performance high. If that was a relative suffering a heart attack, who would you want the guard to ring?

 

[tbtc]

I can't see any reason why First shouldn't be awarded an extension: I think they are doing an excellent job of operating the Transpennine franchise

The obvious problems with the franchise are:

1. Only fifty one 185s ordered, rather than the planned sixty
2. Only three coach 185 ordered, rather than the planned fourth coach
3. Resources stretched too far because the goalposts changed mid-franchise and TPE had to take over the Glasgow/Edinburgh trips (which meant the same number of trains having to fill a bigger number of diagrams)
4. Two coach 170s allocated to Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport and Hull - Manchester Piccadilly services
5. Very few services through Leeds are doubled up, meaning that the average train is shorter than when ATN ran the service with four coach 158s

None of the above are the fault of First, all are down to the DFT. I'm sure that if First had been allowed a fleet of sixty 4 coach 185s (and didn't need to run to Glasgow/Edinburgh) then the franchise would be a lot better, but its not their fault that this isn't how things worked out.

 

[WestCoast]

185s are far too small for Man Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh.
Standing room only last weds coming up from Manchester. Nowhere to keep suitcases.

TPE were forced into it by DafT. It should really be a Virgin West Coast or CrossCountry service.

If Manchester Airport - Scotland has to be TPE, then they should have been forced to take on the 180s for the route IMHO, instead of them going to Open Access Operators.

 

[185]

In late 2003, six months before the franchise started, a Q&A meeting.

Me: You've ordered 3 car trains - shorter than Arriva and other bidders specified... will they be able to cope with the anticipated growth?
Vernon Barker, MD, FKTPE: Yes, they are much larger with more seats.
Me: But even with the 12 tip down seats and they are still a reduction on the 3-car 158s we already have, how is that an increase?
Vernon Barker: These are a vast improvement, mechanically, technologically much faster, more powerful.... etc.

See what he did there.

Driver's union rep: Vernon, during your time as MD of First North Western, you led a blame culture where staff were disciplined for anything you could find, it was a horrible place to work with drivers going around on 40+ points, and generally a management failing to accept responsibility for their own failings. Will that happen here? Many of your former staff referred to Arriva Trains Northern as 'The Great Escape' as they came here to get away from all that stupidity.
Vernon Barker, very red face, blood boiling: There will be no blame culture and nobody brings any baggage from the previous franchise and that applies to staff aswell as management.....

 

[tbtc]

Me: You've ordered 3 car trains - shorter than Arriva and other bidders specified...

I wonder how the world would be if Arriva had won the bid with the four coach 180s which they planned to introduce?

 

[185]

It was 55 x four coach units, the exact type wasn't specified but I seem to remember at their presentation in the NRM, Ray Price said they were to be built by Alsthom.

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ar...3.Arriva_vision_of_better_rail_deal_unveiled/

 

[tbtc]

It was 55 x four coach units, the exact type wasn't specified but I seem to remember at their presentation in the NRM, Ray Price said they were to be built by Alsthom.

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ar...3.Arriva_vision_of_better_rail_deal_unveiled/

They were 180s in the promotional literature which Arriva were handing out at Leeds station around ten years ago
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
ETA: I'd forgotten Connex were bidding too - that could have been a nightmare!

 

[185]

I remember the picture - they looked like 180s but I don't think there was any mention if they would be the same. First place I head 180s mentioned was on here last year.

One director from Great Western said the design schematics of the 180s looked like a GCSE C.D.T. project gone wrong.

That would be class - Connex operating 180s!!! There was a worse option than FirstGroup after all!

 

[northernrail]

I Kind of want them to loose it, just to see a new face in the railway world

 

[142094]

I Kind of want them to loose it, just to see a new face in the railway world

No doubt it will be another bus operator/joint bid getting the franchise.

As has been said before I'd personally like to see the Northern franchise given the TPE services that run to Newcastle/Middlesbrough/Scarborough/Cleethorpes and the West Coast franchise given the Edinburgh - Manchester Airport bit.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If the contract were to finish in January 2012, the DfT would have had to have been a fair way through the retendering process by now. The DfT are still finalising the details of Rail Franchising Version 3 as far as I'm aware and as such are minded to give the agreed franchise extensions in most cases. West Coast and Anglia should be the first retendered franchises operating under the new system.

The TPE franchise extension should see it running until 31st January 2017, and I can't see any reason why First shouldn't be awarded an extension: I think they are doing an excellent job of operating the Transpennine franchise.

I am thinking of a scenario where the current discussions on a larger franchaise for the North of England have been in the public domain of late.

The First TPE franchaise ends in January 2012. The Northern Rail franchaise now ends in September 2013, I am informed. Why not extend the First TPE franchaise to September 2013, if such a larger NEW such franchaise would be considered by the powers-that-be. It would give more stability to First TPE who know that officially, their franchaise has only six months left to run.

 

[tbtc]

I Kind of want them to loose it, just to see a new face in the railway world

Sadly I don't think we will see any "new" faces getting involved in running franchises.

We've lost a few over the years (Prism, Arriva, MTL, Sea Containers etc), we are about to lose National Express, and if the WCML franchise isn't awarded to them then I don't think we'll see any more of Virgin.

The costs of putting in a bid are pretty high, the logistics of running a franchise (where the Government may move the goalposts at any stage - like has happened to First/Keolis on TPE) and the short term nature of franchises mean its not an obvious area for any "new" company to get involved.

I'd like to be proved wrong, and I could see a market for a logistics company or a "Third Party Contracting Out" company getting involved, in theory, but I can't see it.

 

[Oliver]

I Kind of want them to loose it, just to see a new face in the railway world

Do you have any reason to suppose this unspecified "new face" would do any better?

 

[185]

I've a rather strong suspicion the finish dates of VWC, Northern, XC and TPE are all being matched.

 

[northernrail]

Do you have any reason to suppose this unspecified "new face" would do any better?

I didnt say a better face...

Maybe RailUK Forums Could take over a franchise (Joke)

 

[DarloRich]

I hope they lose it. They charge way too much for tickets

what are you talking about? TPE seesm a pretty decent franchise to me. They do the best with the cards they were dealt. It doesnt help when you plan for X and are told by DFT to run X AND Y AND Z with less resource than you planned for to run X

Total and utter rubbish. Much as i dislike bus companies FPTE do the best they can. Perhaps prices are set in such a way as to try and retard customer demand on services which are full already.