First Group: General Discussion

[90019]

[pedant hat]
The Cadet is the short version they only used on the VDL SB120 ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/fido100/6103498701/ ); the equivalent on the Dart and B6 was the Crusader. Wrigths used all sorts of wierd names; on the Scanias I think they were called Axcess-Ultralow or something memorable like that.

My personal favorite out of the names is the Wright Axcess-Floline.

 

[37012]

Firsts bus activities cannot be taken into account when awarding the rail franchise. Besides, said franchise is awarded by the DfT, not Holyrood.

The only possible implications for First having both bus and rail operations in Scotland is the Competition Comission, but they cleared it when First took on Scotrail.

Not correct Holyrood controls Rail Franchising for Scotrail under the Transport For Scotland umbrella which also controls and regulates bus services in conjunction with the Local Councils
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

OK, so I got that wrong.

The fact remains that First's bus network cannot be held against them when bidding for Rail franchises, only looked at retrospectively by the CC if the OFT deems there to be a problem.

Yes they can as "Transport For Scotland" is the umbrella department that controls Rail,road,bus services,concessionary travel in Scotland and to dump the subsidised bus service and leave whole communities stranded without a bus service can and will be looked at by Transport for Scotland when deciding whats best for oop north as inlike in England Holyrood are starting to control more aspect of Transport and are slowly creeping towards integration of all form of public transport

 

[overthewater]

Is the following legal:

First pulls out of Northampton, does a First Edinburgh. But sells the Depot to stagecoach for £5million, with stagecoach just reg the cover routes or a new network..

 

[37012]

Is the following legal:

First pulls out of Northampton, does a First Edinburgh. But sells the Depot to stagecoach for £5million, with stagecoach just reg the cover routes or a new network..

Any job losses? I'd assume they will have to give the statutory notice of withdrawl of services through the Traffic Comission (3months I think) then there is nothing stopping them selling off their redundant assets

 

[MK Tom]

Is the following legal:

First pulls out of Northampton, does a First Edinburgh. But sells the Depot to stagecoach for £5million, with stagecoach just reg the cover routes or a new network..

It'd be better if they sold it to Centrebus. Stagecoach already operate disgusting fares in Northampton and giving them complete market dominance would make that even worse.

 

[mbonwick]

Is the following legal:

First pulls out of Northampton, does a First Edinburgh. But sells the Depot to stagecoach for £5million, with stagecoach just reg the cover routes or a new network..

Perfectly legit, so long as the compulsory notice period for cancellations is adhered to etc. Not sure where the workers would stand though or whether TUPE would apply.

It'd be better if they sold it to Centrebus. Stagecoach already operate disgusting fares in Northampton and giving them complete market dominance would make that even worse.

Stagecoach are in a far better position to sort Northampton out than the disgraceful cowboy outfit that is Centrebus.

 

[Blindtraveler]

What is wrong with Centerbus? Never used/dont know anything about them.

 

[overthewater]

I've heard that Northampton will be next on the hit list, shortly.

 

[mbonwick]

What is wrong with Centerbus? Never used/dont know anything about them.

Let's just say that their admin leaves a lot to be desired and the quality and presentation of their vehicles speaks for itself.

 

[Ivo]

I've heard that Northampton will be next on the hit list, shortly.

This is the most predictable thing I've seen since England lost on penalties to Italy

Let's just say that their admin leaves a lot to be desired and the quality and presentation of their vehicles speaks for itself.

I've never travelled on Centrebus and I'm not sure I want to. Although I have nothing to confirm this I am led to believe that a friend of mine in London once contacted them asking for simple service information and they flatly refused to help him! All the major players would have been only too happy to help. Also, their market strategy seems a lot like Rotala - just buy anyone we fancy and try to force the other locals out of business.

 

[IanXC]

Has anyone else noticed the average age of First's York fleet increasing over recent months? Maybe I have been paying more notice recently but its certainly the case that the double deckers which replaced the FTRs are significantly older.

 

[Polarbear]

Overheard a couple of First drivers @ Rock Ferry today talking about their futures. Whilst I didn't hear everything, the gist seemed to be that they were expecting the depot to be sold to either Arriva or Stagecoach in the not too distant future.

 

[Schnellzug]

Well, the "First" bus company are expanding round here, if on a modest scale. They've just taken over the Dorchester-Poole service from Damory and they're using some of the Tridents that have recently been transferred from Bristorl. Now if they were to take over the dorchester-Yeovil route that would be very useful, as it would plug a bit of a gap.

 

[overthewater]

Overheard a couple of First drivers @ Rock Ferry today talking about their futures. Whilst I didn't hear everything, the gist seemed to be that they were expecting the depot to be sold to either Arriva or Stagecoach in the not too distant future.

Arriva would result in CC and OFT, I heard it could be Rota of even Trandev.

 

[tbtc]

Has anyone else noticed the average age of First's York fleet increasing over recent months? Maybe I have been paying more notice recently but its certainly the case that the double deckers which replaced the FTRs are significantly older.

Yeah, the 07 reg Geminis from Rotherham.

Moving the "non standard" FTRs from York, not repainting any buses and merging York with Doncaster (which has also not seen any buses rebranded) does suggest things may be changing before long...

 

[IanXC]

Yeah, the 07 reg Geminis from Rotherham.

Moving the "non standard" FTRs from York, not repainting any buses and merging York with Doncaster (which has also not seen any buses rebranded) does suggest things may be changing before long...

I hadn't realised York had been realigned with Doncaster, I get the impression that up until now York had been pretty much a satellite of Leeds?

 

[MK Tom]

Stagecoach are in a far better position to sort Northampton out than the disgraceful cowboy outfit that is Centrebus.

I travel with Centrebus quite often on MK-Dunstable-Luton route X31. The service is always on time and the vehicles are clean. I had cause to complain to them on one occasion - they responded with multiple written letters, far more than the emails I've had from Stagecoach which avoid the issues and apologise for nothing.

Stagecoach's fares in Northampton are absolutely disgusting. Furthermore seeing as they run most of the town already they've already had and missed their chance to sort it out. Their operation has the feel of knowing they're in charge - fares are over the top, timekeeping is poor and vehicle condition ranges from pretty amazing to absolutely awful.

Compare Stagecoach Northampton with Arriva's recent investments in Milton Keynes - a conscious effort to upsize vehicles, new express routes, new nightbus routes coming down the line, a new information centre, joining the MK business alliances - vehicles are in good nick, timekeeping is so-so and fares are better than SC's fares in Rugby, a town less than half MK's size. So the best thing for Northampton would be Arriva taking First's operation, but they won't because it's not profitable enough for them and Centrebus are someone I'd much rather ride the 28 with than Stagecoach are.

 

[Ivo]

Simple response: If a subsidiary makes big bucks, like I believe MK do, Arriva will care about them. If not, they couldn't care less.

I would much rather First in Northampton than Arriva. And having travelled on a First bus in Northampton, I know they aren't exactly great...

 

[mbonwick]

I travel with Centrebus quite often on MK-Dunstable-Luton route X31. The service is always on time and the vehicles are clean. I had cause to complain to them on one occasion - they responded with multiple written letters, far more than the emails I've had from Stagecoach which avoid the issues and apologise for nothing.

That's not the experience I or several others have had. Enough said.

Stagecoach's fares in Northampton are absolutely disgusting. Furthermore seeing as they run most of the town already they've already had and missed their chance to sort it out. Their operation has the feel of knowing they're in charge - fares are over the top, timekeeping is poor and vehicle condition ranges from pretty amazing to absolutely awful.

Have you ever considered that their current base may restrict their operations? Stabling buses overnight in Greyfriars Bus Station is not ideal and Stagecoach are keen to minimise the numbers involved.

Compare Stagecoach Northampton with Arriva's recent investments in Milton Keynes - a conscious effort to upsize vehicles, new express routes, new nightbus routes coming down the line, a new information centre, joining the MK business alliances - vehicles are in good nick, timekeeping is so-so and fares are better than SC's fares in Rugby, a town less than half MK's size. So the best thing for Northampton would be Arriva taking First's operation, but they won't because it's not profitable enough for them and Centrebus are someone I'd much rather ride the 28 with than Stagecoach are.

Oh dear.
Last time I looked Scania K230UBs were bigger than Dart SLFs which will be moving on after the Olympics.
MK is a big city, so fares will be lower. Rugby isn't that big so you can't compare - like you said, its half the size.

I think you could do with getting your facts straight and applying common sense to the situation before jumping in.

 

[MK Tom]

That's not the experience I or several others have had. Enough said.

Not really logical, but could just be down to difference between depots, or maybe the X31 just happens to be their best route ever. I can only go by my own experience.

Have you ever considered that their current base may restrict their operations? Stabling buses overnight in Greyfriars Bus Station is not ideal and Stagecoach are keen to minimise the numbers involved.

Fair point.

Oh dear.
Last time I looked Scania K230UBs were bigger than Dart SLFs which will be moving on after the Olympics.
MK is a big city, so fares will be lower. Rugby isn't that big so you can't compare - like you said, its half the size.

Doesn't really make sense - Aylesbury is about the same size as Rugby and fares there are massively cheaper. Stagecoach in Northampton and Rugby are a massive rip off.

I didn't know the Darts were 'moving on' - and more info on that would be appreciated.

I think you could do with getting your facts straight and applying common sense to the situation before jumping in.

Politeness goes a long way too. I've had a very poor experience with SC in Northampton and a much better one with Arriva in MK and Aylesbury and with the times I've travelled with CB. So I will 'jump in' even if my experiences are different to those of most.

Not sure where First compare with all of this really! I think all the companies we've discussed here would invest in Northampton more than they have though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Simple response: If a subsidiary makes big bucks, like I believe MK do, Arriva will care about them. If not, they couldn't care less.

Yeah I'm sure that's a factor. Curiously most of MK's most heavily subsidised routes end up in the hands of Red Rose and Z&S though.

 

[mbonwick]

The darts are to transfer to Cambridge after the Olympics.

Subsidised services tend to go to local independants as they have lower overheads so put lower bids in for council support.

 

[Ivo]

The darts are to transfer to Cambridge after the Olympics.

What would they run on? I can't think of anything obvious that would be suitable for a Dart.

 

[MK Tom]

Ah, thanks. Perhaps Stagecoach deserve more credit for investment than I give them. I just see a £7.50 return from Stony Stratford to Northampton as being absurd, and the £10.90 dayrider gold, when compared to Arriva's £5.90 MK-Aylesbury return and £8.50 Explorer (all prices from the last time I bought each ticket). As for Rugby, a £2.05 town-suburb single against £1.50 for Arriva Aylesbury and £2.00 for MK seems mental.

So if First do pull out of Northampton (or when they do), what happens to all their school contracts and what happens to the Luton Airport shuttle they run?

 

[Ivo]

I've just tried a search on Google for First Bus Sell Off to see if I can find anything new - but the fifth result is something called "RailUK Forums". Something tells me that such a site won't reveal anything new

More to the point, changing the search to the past week promtoes the site to #1!

what happens to the Luton Airport shuttle they run?

Their bendies can come back home if First don't mind!

Not that they will...

 

[Polarbear]

I've just tried a search on Google for First Bus Sell Off to see if I can find anything new - but the fifth result is something called "RailUK Forums". Something tells me that such a site won't reveal anything new

The impression I am getting is that staff at the respective First depot's have been told something about possible sell off's in the future. I suspect First may well be priming the ground to see what (if any) interest is out there for the parts they are no longer interested in?

One option for the Chester & Wirral operation that I thought could happen is to split the two depots between two buyers. That may be a way around any possible referrals?

Arriva would result in CC and OFT, I heard it could be Rota of even Trandev

Doubt if Transdev would be interested - they aren't keen on having lots of competition around (Arriva in this case). Rota is a possibility though.

 

[anthony263]

First cymru have reduced the timings of more services around Swansea from 22nd July. The FTR metro service is being reduced to every 20 minutes Monday to Fridays yet it is always busy each time I have seen it although could be something to do with teh university.

First have also lost the contract for the evening services on Gower explorer service 116 Swansea - Llanrihiddian.

Mind you Select bus and coach have done well on their service 30 Swansea - Skewen - Birchgrive - Llansamlet - Swansea so much so First have retimed their service 59 Swansea - Neath to leave Neath & Swansea 5 minutes ahead of Selects service 30.

Edwards are also supposed to be sniffing around Swansea so I think we can expect a shake up in the next 18 months

 

[pemma]

Did First Chester used to have so many old vehicles registered to First Manchester or are they moving them around before sell off like Stagecoach Yorkshire did?

 

[bb21]

Would be a shame if Northampton is sold, as they hold historical significance to First Group being the first English municipal GRT purchased post-deregulation.

 

[Ivo]

Would be a shame if Northampton is sold, as they hold historical significance to First Group being the first English municipal GRT purchased post-deregulation.

Sentiment and commerce don't go together very well...

 

[Polarbear]

Did First Chester used to have so many old vehicles registered to First Manchester or are they moving them around before sell off like Stagecoach Yorkshire did?

The vehicles at Chester (and Birkenhead for the most part) were drafted in a few years back to replace the last of the erstwhile PMT fleet (such as the "L" registered darts). Nothing "new" (as in brand new) or "new" (as in bag of bolts from elsewhere) has appeared for a while now, other than a few solo's ("W" reg) to replace the PMT varios.

It's a far cry from Crosville days!