David10
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No original order was for 56. The 170s were brought in when it was decided TPE would take the Manchester - Edinburgh / Glasglow services from Cross Country.
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FirstGroup vies with Virgin in west coast rail bidding war
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tbtc
Veteran Member
These were to replace four coach 158s on the core York - Manchester TPE section, albeit only every twenty minutes.
Still, twelve coaches an hour vs twelve coaches an hour (when the 185s have fewer seats than equivalent length of 158s) was never going to deal with growth.
It shows the benefit of EMUs, in that it appears much easier to get "middle" coaches to extend an EMU - once the DMU is out of production it seems really hard to get more compatible ones built (especially when engine regulations change re emissions etc)
I stand corrected.
pablo
Member
Virgin seem pretty confident. They were dishing out iced lollies at Euston of Friday.
Just what I needed after SE stole my train to run the shuttles.
Just what I needed after SE stole my train to run the shuttles.
HSTEd
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First was the one who selected an overweight class of multiple units that no-one else wanted, rather than units from widely used families like the Turbostar or the Voy/Meridian, making it highly unlikely that it would be economical to order additional units.
And it is fine for First to want additional coaches, but they are not the ones who have to pay the colossal subsidies required by the TPE franchise, there is no evidence that subsidies required by the DfT/SRA would be reduced or that the BCR of the additional subsidies required would be higher than any of a hundred other projects competing for funding.
The Treasury appear to want First to win:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...l-franchise-bids-or-risk-high-speed-line.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...l-franchise-bids-or-risk-high-speed-line.html
Aictos
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And as we all know from past experience that what the Treasury wants, it gets every time...
Take the mess that was privatisation, it was the Treasury who wanted it broken up into many many pieces to maximise any income.
Take the mess that was privatisation, it was the Treasury who wanted it broken up into many many pieces to maximise any income.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The Stagecoach 2011/12 results http://www.stagecoach.com/~/media/F...edia/publication-financial-reports/ar2012.pdf
have a section on Virgin Rail Group.
VT is still profitable with revenue up 8-9% but profit down by almost half.
The premium to DfT is increasing faster than the revenue.
The 9-month extension will also be at lower margin.
Despite the revenue growth they are in revenue support with DfT.
So life is not easy for West Coast, whoever is going to run it.
have a section on Virgin Rail Group.
VT is still profitable with revenue up 8-9% but profit down by almost half.
The premium to DfT is increasing faster than the revenue.
The 9-month extension will also be at lower margin.
Despite the revenue growth they are in revenue support with DfT.
So life is not easy for West Coast, whoever is going to run it.
asylumxl
Established Member
What an absolute load of rubbish.
Their big white elephant is slowly sinking on it's own.
RPI
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It does make me laugh how Bob Crow gets on his soap box one minute banging on about how much the private railway costs the tax payer, then when a company who it is rumoured is going to pay a massive premium to the government is interested he moans about that also?
tbtc
Veteran Member
Yup - all the "fat cats profiteering from our railways" stuff has been forgotten for a wee while now he would rather the Government took a lower premium (so that a private company could make a bigger profit?)
They have been dishing them out since the Olympics began.
The wrapper says "with the compliments of Stagecoach" with a small Virgin sign below.
Class377/5
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Wasn't it the initial order placed was 50 units but TPE actually wanted to order 60 odd units but were told no.
Morgsie
Member
I cannot believe George Osbourne is blackmailing Justine Greening from that article. That's the impression I got
Treasury is responsible for the public purse and the DfT is for strategy, projects and awarding Franchises.
Treasury is responsible for the public purse and the DfT is for strategy, projects and awarding Franchises.
What is it you can't believe? The Treasury always controls how much other departments spend, and rightly so. Total Government spending is still increasing (despite the "cuts") and if a government runs out of money things get very ugly indeed, witness Greece, Spain, etc.
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The Telegraph analysis looks spot on to me. First are desperate to win something as their share price was falling through the floor (and has now recovered nicely, wich shows how superficial the markets are), and the government are desparate for money. The Virgin bid looks about the right level to me.
Why does the recovery in the FGP share price show that markets are superficial? The market price reflects people voting with their money, which is rather different to the world of internet forums.
You would expect the FGP share price to react to news of this nature, and everyone is aware of how NEX over-bid in the past. The fact that the FGP price has risen supports the view that it has not over-bid. I am not sure I agree with that view, but please don't rubbish the market because it doesn't correspond with one's personal preferences.
SkinnyDave
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Some would call it voting with their money others gambling 
How long after the bid will the public find out what bid contained what?
I found it interesting that the Last ECML bid apparently First scored the highest but offered the less in premiums.
I still stand by my earlier comment that the DFT can't afford to make a hash of this one.
If First offer the highest premiums and can show they can afford it then fine we will know this time next week
How long after the bid will the public find out what bid contained what?
I found it interesting that the Last ECML bid apparently First scored the highest but offered the less in premiums.
I still stand by my earlier comment that the DFT can't afford to make a hash of this one.
If First offer the highest premiums and can show they can afford it then fine we will know this time next week
Eastcoast43208
Member
Its all Happening, so does anyone Else see Virgin losing the west coast, then Heading Straight over to the East coast ?
we all know how long Richard Branson has wanted the East Coast
we will have to wait and see then ...
I would Rather First Group get the West Coast, yes they will be cuts left , right and centre, First group will then be Laughing, they will have Great western , west Coast , TPE And scot rail, i think first group do a Very good job, at least its keeping SNCF out
we all know how long Richard Branson has wanted the East Coast
we will have to wait and see then ...
I would Rather First Group get the West Coast, yes they will be cuts left , right and centre, First group will then be Laughing, they will have Great western , west Coast , TPE And scot rail, i think first group do a Very good job, at least its keeping SNCF out
185
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Beyond the headlines Chancellor George Osborne & FirstGroup Plc.
The link between the two?
Osbourne: Macclesfield MP
Vernon Barker Head of Rail, house in Macclesfield, and one near Congleton
Osbourne: Conservative
Vernon Barker Head of Rail: Conservative Local Party Member
Smell a rat here? :roll:
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Even if First win West Coast, there is no guarantee they will hang on to any of their other franchises, all of which are up for rebidding in the next couple of years.
On EC, Branson has lots of other interests, and is rather unpredictable.
If he loses WC he may decide the odds are stacked against VRG at the moment (remember he was a Blair supporter) and may leave EC to Stagecoach, who will certainly bid if VRG don't.
Especially if EC becomes more like GW (ie regional/local services as well as long-distance).
When we know the WC winner, it will be some weeks before any worthwhile details are known, because a contract needs to be signed first.
Even then we will probably only get the good news , if any (new routes, trains etc). The bad news will then quietly dribble out before the franchise starts up in December.
It's unlikely that we will find out what the other bids contained, we don't normally.
185
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Correct. Sealed bid system.
However the way which things are being done, in considering a bid that probably won't work (ie - an 'NXEC') has obviously annoyed someone on the inside who went public with the news last week about Branson being outbid.
So you're saying that First Group has wasted a billion pounds because they can win via the back door anyway?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Some would call it voting with their money others gambling
I don't mind what you call it; there's still a big difference between spending your money and expressing an opinion on an internet forum.
I'd expect that any politician these days would be VERY mindful of any accusation of corruption, and if this information showing possible links is so easily obtained then it would be even more vital to be totally open and honest.
So, I'd expect that any MP - whatever position they currently hold in Government - would step back and make sure not to say or do anything that could get them in a lot of trouble.
And if someone is going to risk everything by perhaps taking a bribe or doing some super-secret deal, would it be worth it for a rail contract? That would almost certainly mean it would have been First Group having to try and bribe someone, and then - as said above - why would they bid such a huge sum to win?
I'd expect that the above is merely a series of coincidences and not a major conspiracy, although you never know...
So, I'd expect that any MP - whatever position they currently hold in Government - would step back and make sure not to say or do anything that could get them in a lot of trouble.
And if someone is going to risk everything by perhaps taking a bribe or doing some super-secret deal, would it be worth it for a rail contract? That would almost certainly mean it would have been First Group having to try and bribe someone, and then - as said above - why would they bid such a huge sum to win?
I'd expect that the above is merely a series of coincidences and not a major conspiracy, although you never know...
185
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No. You misunderstood the point.
My comment was on the neutrality of the Chancellor, who has crossed the line on the franchising exercise. As a politician, he, by law should not be intervening in the bid system by making 'suggestive' comments.
I still maintain FirstGroup's head of rail, someone previously caught lying, has made a bid that will not add up.
In the interests of neutrality, I should point out that I equally detest Virgin Rail and Stagecoach. Same poop, different paint scheme.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
To be strictly accurate, George Osborne is MP for Tatton (Knutsford etc) and not Macclesfield, whose MP is David Rutley.
I've no idea which constituency Vernon Barker lives in, nor do I care.
No. You misunderstood the point.
My comment was on the neutrality of the Chancellor, who has crossed the line on the franchising exercise. As a politician, he, by law should not be intervening in the bid system by making 'suggestive' comments.
I still maintain FirstGroup's head of rail, someone previously caught lying, has made a bid that will not add up.
In the interests of neutrality, I should point out that I equally detest Virgin Rail and Stagecoach. Same poop, different paint scheme.
Thanks for clarifying your view. What you wrote above reads quite dfferently to the inuendo of your previous posting.
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