Flexibility of changing - Exeter or Plymouth?

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by cle, 4 Mar 2011.

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  1. Zoe

    Zoe Established Member

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    So if you travel on a train you are not booked on then you can't be treated as though you had no ticket at all?
     
  2. gnolife

    gnolife Established Member

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    i know im not an expert in this, and im not in the right area in the slightest, but im going to put my experiences of the 'and connections' advance tickets in, see if that helps matters at all.
    to start with, my local station is Heald Green, which gets 2 Northern and 1 TPX service (continuing to Blackpool N) going to Man Picc each hour. one time (to travel on 28/08/2010) i bought a advance + conn ticket to York, booked on the 11:11 TPX from Picc (dest. Scarborough) which was the only reservation i had been given, and i was told by the issuer that i was permitted to travel on the Blackpool train, despite not having a reservation.
    i understand that this might be something of a one of case, but i hope it helps
     
  3. Zoe

    Zoe Established Member

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    If your ticket says &Connections then you are allowed to do this. The issue here is that it seems that if your ticket does not say that then you must only travel on the trains the ticket office staff tell you to, regardless of it you have a reservation or not. The onus is then on you to remember any trains you were told you must travel on that you don't have reservations for.
     
  4. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I thought you were talking about the suggestion of using the Plymouth to Exeter ticket. So you are talking about the original proposal of simply changing earlier. The idea that someone could be prosecuted for that is absurd! As for a Penalty Fare, that may be the case by a strict interpretation, but my brain hurts even thinking about it.
     
  5. Zoe

    Zoe Established Member

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    I believe the ticket they have as a Truro to Paddington ticket. They have a reservation from Exeter to Paddington. There is no question that they must use this train. The issue is that they are not booked on the train from Plymouth, they have another train they have been told to use between Plymouth and Exeter. Can they be treated as not having a ticket if they join the train at Plymouth?
     
  6. cle

    cle Established Member

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    It is a bit ridiculous - same two services, same departure time, same arrival in Paddington. But it is the system we live in!

    Maybe I'd be valid from Plymouth, but without a seat guaranteed until Exeter, even though it'd be unlikely I'd have to stand?

    I could ask the first train's TM, but then if the HST TM doesn't like it, I could be buggered?!
     
  7. Zoe

    Zoe Established Member

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    No you would not. You are booked to join the train at Exeter not Plymouth. You must only join the train at the station you are booked to join from.
     
  8. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Can you quote a source for that statement, please? It does not appear to be consistent with NRCoC 19.
     
  9. Zoe

    Zoe Established Member

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    Advance fares are valid only on the trains you are booked on. In this case the booking is from Exeter and not Plymouth. This has nothing to do with splitting tickets.
     
  10. MichaelAMW

    MichaelAMW Member

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    Well, yes, but that doesn't quite answer the question posed in several ways in this thread, that of whether the non-reserved bit is allowed to be done in any reasonable or sensible way. In particular, I can't see why having a reservation from A to B on a particular train automatically forbids you from joining earlier than at A.

    I know that people have said that you must travel on the trains suggested, including your own point Zoe that you have to remember what the booking office told you, and that you are not allowed to travel on a reservable train without reservations. However, I am still finding it hard to see where this is clearly stated - and I mean that from the perspective of an ordinary punter, rather than for we on this forum who know the various documents inside out and enjoy pulling them to pieces!

    It strikes me - see this and countless other threads - that the advance-purchase rules are inadequate, in that they really only cover a journey for which you have reservations throughout. The existence of a non-reserved leg of an Advance journey isn't really covered at all well. That shortcoming applies regardless of whether "& connections" is part of the route.
     
  11. Zoe

    Zoe Established Member

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    It's not my point of view but actually the opinion of another poster that works in a ticket office. The terms do stake that if the ticket doesn't say &Connections then you must travel on booked trains only. The only logical way you could know what your booked trains are is to listen to what you are told at the ticket office and remember it, note it down or ask for an itinerary. If you don't know what your booked trains are and the ticket only allows travel on booked trains then the journey is not possible.
     
  12. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Do we actually know whether the OP has a ticket routed “& Connections” or not? If not then as HHF points out they cannot travel from Truro to Exeter according to your statement above, which would clearly be ridiculous.

    If they have an “& Connections” ticket then I think we are agreed that they would be OK getting on the train at Plymouth.

    (Also- could you post a link to the T&Cs where the “& Connections” validity is explained please?)
    This part I am very dubious of, because:
    1) I haven’t seen any definition of ‘booked’ anywhere. Where is there a record of the ‘booking’?
    2) The FGW Advance ticket T&Cs refer only to reserved services printed on the ticket
    3) How is a guard supposed to know which services you are ‘booked’ on? If there is no record of it then they can’t. (OK- in this case they would since it’s the same train as their reserved part).
     
  13. cle

    cle Established Member

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    How can I find out about the &Connections bit if I'm only collecting my tickets on the day?

    I might just ask the Truro ticket office person, and get their name and details to quote them if they say it's fine, if I can't have a revised itinerary...
     
  14. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    If you're passing a station you can pick them up earlier- any time and at any station with a ToD enabled ticket machine.

    Alternatively, if you can post the price of your ticket (including any discounts) I imagine someone with Advantix handy could identify the ticket and thus whether it's '&Connections' or otherwise.
     
  15. island

    island Established Member

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    The only &CONNECTIONS route for a ticket from Truro to London Terminals is FGW SLEEPR &CONX.
     
  16. TEW

    TEW Established Member

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    Truro-London tickets can either be routed FGW Only or AP Slough.
     
  17. Zoe

    Zoe Established Member

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    I think the issue here is that advance fares have been availabe for a very long time on the routes from Paddington to the Westcountry. Back in the day Apex fares has reservations written on the back of a ticket and I don't remember ever getting told what trains to use other than the ones where a reservation was mde. As far as I remember these tickets were always routed AP Slough. In 2006 advance fares became much more widely available at the same time as walk-on ares were sigificantly hiked. Then we had simplification in 2008 and it seems FGW didn't change their route from AP Slough to &Connections. As a result under the terms of advance fares travel is only allowed on booked trains and unless you conclude that all trains you are told by the ticket office to travel on are booked trains then you have no way of travelling if you don't have reservations for all trains.
     
  18. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    Someone wanted to see the condition relating to '& connections' tickets....

     
  19. Zoe

    Zoe Established Member

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    So if I get a ticket from Plymouth to Barking then and it says "AP Slough" it's of no use once I get to Paddington. The itinerary would tell me to get the London Ungerground to Tower Hill and then get a c2c train to Barking. A much easier option is available though by getting a direct Hammersmith & City line train to Barking but since this isn't what the itinerary says then if I arrived at Barking this way it would be against the terms and conditions of the ticket?
     
  20. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    A ticket from Plymouth to Barking would likely be 'rte +AP Slough' or 'rte +FGW & Connections'.

    If it is routed '+AP Slough' then no TOC is mentioned and can be used as per the booking made, this is why a geographic route is mentioned in the condition. The only reason it would not be valid for use on c2c services (by the book) is if a c2c service is not shown on the ticket(s)....
     
  21. Zoe

    Zoe Established Member

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    So if routed +AP Slough then you can't use London Underground all the way to Barking as the itinerary would say to use c2c?
     
  22. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    edited by author...


    By the book, no, if it was 'booked' on c2c it is not valid by the Underground between Tower Hill and Barking.
     
    Last edited: 9 Mar 2011
  23. Zoe

    Zoe Established Member

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    This all goes back to what "booked" is defined as. If we go by what you say that all trains are booked and as the ticket is marked +AP Slough you must arrive at Barking on the c2c train. This is ludicrous as if you go to the platform it's quite likley you will see a train arrive with "Barking" on the front of it.
     
  24. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    Strictly speaking it goes back to the first condition of the ticket, "tickets are only valid on the date and train service(s) shown on the ticket(s)", but that is nearly the same thing. This should be explained to the passenger in the restrictions at the time of purchase though, so I'm not sure it is "ludicrous". You could probably apply that logic to any journey where a change of train is booked, but a direct service is due around the same time, "that train is going to [passenger's destination], why can't I get on it?", etc, etc.
     
  25. OwlMan

    OwlMan Established Member

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    No the routes available from Plymouth to Barking are +AP LONDN READING and +AP LONDN HONITON

    Peter
     
  26. Zoe

    Zoe Established Member

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    That may well be the case but makes no difference to the fact that you must travel on the c2c train you are told and not use the London Underground all the way to Barking.
     
  27. OwlMan

    OwlMan Established Member

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    A lot of the above replies appear to have ignored the restriction codes of the various advanced tickets.

    For the Exeter - Barking query
    The restriction code code for all the +AP LONDN HONITON tickets is SW
    Restriction : SW
    Valid on South West Trains (TOC Code:sWT) and connecting services only.

    The restriction codes for the +AP LONDN READING are IF, IS, ZJ, ZK,
    Which all read:
    Valid on First Great Western (TOC Code:GWA/GRW) and most connecting services (see below)
    NOT valid on SouthEastern High Speed services (HS1) arriving at London St Pancras International before 0959. or departing London St Pancras
    International between 1600 and 1859, Monday to Friday.

    Therefore your ticket is valid on connecting services as is not restricted to booked trains only.

    Regarding the original query the routes available for advanced tickets (Truro - London Terminals) have different restrictions.
    If the ticket is routed GREAT WESTN ONLY the restriction codes are QF, QS, ZH, ZI
    QF & QS read:
    Valid on First Great Western (TOC Code: GWR) services only.
    ZH reads
    Valid on First Great Western (TOC Code:GWA/GRW) and most connecting services (see below)
    NOT valid on SouthEastern High Speed services (HS1) arriving at London St Pancras International before 0959. or departing London St Pancras
    International between 1600 and 1859, Monday to Friday.
    ZI reads
    Date and time shown on accompanying reservation.

    If the ticket is routes AP SLOUGH the restriction codes are IF, IS, ZJ, ZK,
    Which all read:
    Valid on First Great Western (TOC Code:GWA/GRW) and most connecting services (see below)
    NOT valid on SouthEastern High Speed services (HS1) arriving at London St Pancras International before 0959. or departing London St Pancras
    International between 1600 and 1859, Monday to Friday.

    So what is allowed depends on what price ticket and what route ticket was purchased.


    Peter
     

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  28. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Thanks for the info. Those terms make perfect sense for most Advance tickets which are either “Booked Train Only” or “& Connections”, but don’t really answer the question IMO. The wording of those terms means that the OP’s ticket is only valid on the train service shown on the ticket, i.e. from Exeter to London, and not on any connecting trains. (I assume the only train shown on the ticket would be the Exeter-London train?)

    I reckon Zoe’s explanation of it being a hangover from the olden days might well be right.

    As I said before, I’ve not seen any definition of a train being ‘booked’, and if the ticket were valid only on ‘booked’ trains then how is a guard or anybody else supposed to know which those trains are? In my view, ‘booked’ means having a reservation for that service, printed on a ticket. If it’s not on the ticket then any reasonable* connection can be used.

    * The word used reluctantly and without wishing to open that particular can of wrigglies!
     
  29. Zoe

    Zoe Established Member

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    It says that the ticket is valid on connecting services but doesn't say you can use any connecting service. By the ATOC terms and conditions of advance tickets it would seem that if not &Connections then the ticket is only valid on the booked connecting service.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Again it's not my explanation, I'm just going by what HHF said and the ATOC terms and conditions do support them. In the old days they just used to issue an Apex ticket and write the details of reservations on the back. I don't remember any requirment to use a booked connecting train.
     
  30. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Is the time of the connecting train printed on the ticket? If not, then I can't see how it's 'booked'.
     
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