Flexible Rail Season Tickets - 2/3 days per week to be introduced by June 2021

[DB]

If we accept that something did have to be launched now (and I appreciate that we may not all accept that) then the amazing thing may not be that it doesn't work smoothly, but that it works at all.

It's been obvious for at least six months, probably a bit longer, that there was going to be an increased demand for commuting less than five days a week - they've had enough time to come up with something!

 

[8rwg]

Anyone know why you can’t seem to buy a flexi from Bedford/Flitwick/Harlington to Woolich Arsenal but can from Leagrave/Luton?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It's been obvious for at least six months, probably a bit longer, that there was going to be an increased demand for commuting less than five days a week - they've had enough time to come up with something!

Although what that 'something' was was only spelt out in late May 2021 (source - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...avel-arrives-with-new-flexible-season-tickets):

New national rail flexible season tickets announced as part of the Williams-Shapps Plan for Rail, the biggest shake-up of rail in a generation.
From:Department for Transport and The Rt Hon Grant Shapps MP
Published20 May 2021

• 2 and 3 day-a-week commuters given control over their commute and offered potential savings of hundreds of pounds against daily and season tickets

 

[JonathanH]

Anyone know why you can’t seem to buy a flexi from Bedford/Flitwick/Harlington to Woolich Arsenal but can from Leagrave/Luton?

Leagrave and Luton have season fares to Woolwich Arsenal routed City Thameslink not valid on the underground. Stations further north don't. You can't have a flexi season for any route valid for underground transfer.

 

[Alex365Dash]

Anyone know why you can’t seem to buy a flexi from Bedford/Flitwick/Harlington to Woolich Arsenal but can from Leagrave/Luton?

Flexi Seasons are not available for travel on journeys that include validity on London Underground. This is the case with Bedford to Woolwich Arsenal, however Flexi Seasons are available for Luton to Woolwich Arsenal as there are tickets routed via City Thameslink that require you to use Thameslink cross-London, and Flexi Seasons are available via City Thameslink only for these journeys.

 

[Starmill]

Well, quite. The irony is that investment can remove subsidy. For example, it seems well established that converting a Manchester suburban rail line to Metrolink costs a lot of infrastructure investment but removes the need for ongoing subsidy while providing a superior service.

Indeed, although you could take much of the saving by removing the second member of onboard staff and reducing the drivers' pay by 20%. That doesn't need the investment of the conversion.

 

[8rwg]

Flexi Seasons are not available for travel on journeys that include validity on London Underground. This is the case with Bedford to Woolwich Arsenal, however Flexi Seasons are available for Luton to Woolwich Arsenal as there are tickets routed via City Thameslink that require you to use Thameslink cross-London, and Flexi Seasons are available via City Thameslink only for these journeys.

That is bizarre and honestly something that needs to be ironed out. Insane that you can’t get the ticket from Harlington when you can from Leagrave - you’d have to change and get the exact same Rainham train from Luton either way.

 

[JonathanH]

That is bizarre and honestly something that needs to be ironed out.

Not really - there has been no perceived need for a Harlington to Woolwich Arsenal season ticket via City Thameslink because people making that journey would potentially just hold a Travelcard season. It is a fairly niche flow. One thing I don't quite know is whether there is a process to create bespoke season tickets on application. I seem to think there was one historically.

 

[vinnym70]

In my TIS I can see fares for a variety of GA journeys.

The GA season ticket portal at https://www.buytickets.greateranglia.co.uk/season-tickets isn't updated then I'd guess.

The results show only Weekly/Monthly/Annual and no amount of station combinations/future start dates seems to persuade it otherwise.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Why couldn't they do the remaining 10%?

TfL SE ScotRail Merseyrail

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2021 ==

The GA season ticket portal at https://www.buytickets.greateranglia.co.uk/season-tickets isn't updated then I'd guess.

The results show only Weekly/Monthly/Annual and no amount of station combinations/future start dates seems to persuade it otherwise.

Look in the normal ticket flow it may be there.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Not really - there has been no perceived need for a Harlington to Woolwich Arsenal season ticket via City Thameslink because people making that journey would potentially just hold a Travelcard season. It is a fairly niche flow. One thing I don't quite know is whether there is a process to create bespoke season tickets on application. I seem to think there was one historically.

For cross-London season tickets that aren't in the fares database, you add together the relevant Travelcard Season fares and deduct the cost of a Travelcard Season for the "dual" zones. (Except for Metropolitan Line stations in Zones 7 to 9, where it's an add-on to the relevant Travelcard Season fare). The drawback being that you can only combine "Any Permitted" tickets in this way, due to how they're issued. So for Cambridge to Epsom via Zone 1 (for example), you'd add the price of a Cambridge - London Zones 1-6 Travelcard Season and an Epsom - London Zones 1-6 Travelcard Season, then deduct the price of a London Zones 1-6 Travelcard Season.

For other flows, you'd presumably have to contact the relevant TOC Pricing Manager.

 

[vinnym70]

Look in the normal ticket flow it may be there.

Can't see it for the life of me. The website has a fairly simple navigation to Season tickets and then buying or renewing a season ticket. And the URL I noted is where those links from the main site land.
Perhaps they're just not ready. The section of the site that covers Flexi Seasons has a link to order a smart card plus FAQs but no obvious link to then 'buy' the product.

 

[Starmill]

That is bizarre and honestly something that needs to be ironed out. Insane that you can’t get the ticket from Harlington when you can from Leagrave - you’d have to change and get the exact same Rainham train from Luton either way.

You could just write to Thameslink and ask them to create a route City Thameslink fare for your journey. There is not much reason for them not to do so.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I imagine that's roughly where the new market-clearing price lies. I.e. where the price would need to fall to for the train to be full again.

The scheme appears to have come across very big technical issues as it was originally going to be completed before the end of last year. A 10% discount is of course pretty much irrelevant. Also, it was suggested that there'd be a two month limit - much too short for a 10 ticket pack, as someone travelling once a week wouldn't be able to use them.

Not a lot of point rolling it out last year just as we were going into lockdown

 

[ainsworth74]

I have to say having now seen what we're getting it feels like the main error here is branding. They'd have been far better served avoiding any reference to 'seasons' and having gone in on this being a widespread rollout of carnets along with some modernisation (no more writing in pen which might get you prosecuted if it's even a tiny bit smudged).

Having a carnet scheme on most flows is a great idea. Trying to tart these up as "flexi-seasons" is just going to lead to disappointment and bad press.

 

[benk1342]

None at all. These were decided at DfT or RDG level, I believe.

However, at a stretch I might be inclined to suggest the dead hand of the Treasury getting involved, with anything less than 2 journeys a week being seen as undercutting fares for occasional travel (SDR) against part time commuting. I may well be wrong. But it does look a bit like the proverbial camel.

Thanks - it also looks a bit like this scheme was created without any awareness (at strategic level) that carnets already existed and covered everything they were setting out to achieve!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2021 ==

I have to say having now seen what we're getting it feels like the main error here is branding. They'd have been far better served avoiding any reference to 'seasons' and having gone in on this being a widespread rollout of carnets along with some modernisation (no more writing in pen which might get you prosecuted if it's even a tiny bit smudged).

Having a carnet scheme on most flows is a great idea. Trying to tart these up as "flexi-seasons" is just going to lead to disappointment and bad press.

Exactly. If the problem was that carnets:
1. Are not universally available
2. Are not “smart”
3. Have a few evening-peak loopholes,

Then just fix those problems and keep expectations in line with what you’re delivering.

 

[DDB]

I think the key mistake (and frankly it was easily foreseeable) is the 28 days because it is so easy for something like a holiday or illness or being away on a course such that people won't need the 8 days and people only need to be burnt once to be put off. Even 6 weeks would probably have been OK. The existing carnets which are being withdrawn mostly had a longer period I belive.

Even a regular 3 day a week traveller could lose out if they take a fortnights holiday which is hardly unusual.

Maybe they will realise their mistake and tweak it.

 

[30907]

Exactly. If the problem was that carnets:
1. Are not universally available
2. Are not “smart”
3. Have a few evening-peak loopholes,

Then just fix those problems and keep expectations in line with what you’re delivering.

At the very least, make sure the flexi season isn't more expensive than the (peak) carnet - that's a real own goal.

 

[js1000]

If the railways want to attract passengers back, and the government is serious about cutting emissions, this is absolutely not the way to go about it - not only is it very unlikely to lead to any modal shift, it may actually increase traffic on the roads as the increased daily cost of using the train if only travelling 2 oe 3 days a week may tip the balance in favour of the car.

It's also fairly incomprehensible why they've made such a big thing of it in the media (it was even one of the leading headlines on Radio 3 news this morning), given that it's really not likely to be viewed as adequate by most of those who were asking for part-time season tickets, and by publicising it so widely they will just have increased the volume of criticism. Surely those who dreamed this up, and the DfT generally, can't be so out of touch that they thought this would go down well?

They should have made flexi tickets available for a trial period over the next 6 to 12 months at a much cheaper rate than a weekly/monthly season ticket to encourage people back on the railways for 3 days a week. Then after 12 months they increase in price to more broadly match season tickets. But by the end of the 12 months the plan would be that a lot of bread and butter commuter traffic has returned thanks to the flexi ticket offer and then they'll carry on commuting as they did before Covid.

Making flexi tickets the same cost as equivalent day or season tickets is an opportunity missed. Most trains are carrying air at the moment so worth a go. The DfT and railways have to get people back on trains and that means if they have to be aggressive and implement 'loss leader' schemes over the next 6 to 12 months then so be it.

 

[Haywain]

Exactly. If the problem was that carnets:
1. Are not universally available
2. Are not “smart”
3. Have a few evening-peak loopholes,

Then just fix those problems and keep expectations in line with what you’re delivering.

You're forgetting the fact that the existing carnets were far from consistent in periods of validity.

 

[Wolfie]

I have to say having now seen what we're getting it feels like the main error here is branding. They'd have been far better served avoiding any reference to 'seasons' and having gone in on this being a widespread rollout of carnets along with some modernisation (no more writing in pen which might get you prosecuted if it's even a tiny bit smudged).

Having a carnet scheme on most flows is a great idea. Trying to tart these up as "flexi-seasons" is just going to lead to disappointment and bad press.

I wouldn't differ from that view. A triumph of badly attempted spin over reality.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2021 ==

They should have made flexi tickets available for a trial period over the next 6 to 12 months at a much cheaper rate than a weekly/monthly season ticket to encourage people back on the railways for 3 days a week. Then after 12 months they increase in price to more broadly match season tickets. But by the end of the 12 months the plan would be that a lot of bread and butter commuter traffic has returned thanks to the flexi ticket offer and then they'll carry on commuting as they did before Covid.

Making flexi tickets the same cost as equivalent day or season tickets is an opportunity missed. Most trains are carrying air at the moment so worth a go. The DfT and railways have to get people back on trains and that means if they have to be aggressive and implement 'loss leader' schemes over the next 6 to 12 months then so be it.

Your last para assumes that they are prepared to spend to grow the business. They may just decide to cut the business to meet current demand...

 

[JonathanH]

They should have made flexi tickets available for a trial period over the next 6 to 12 months at a much cheaper rate than a weekly/monthly season ticket to encourage people back on the railways for 3 days a week. Then after 12 months they increase in price to more broadly match season tickets. But by the end of the 12 months the plan would be that a lot of bread and butter commuter traffic has returned thanks to the flexi ticket offer and then they'll carry on commuting as they did before Covid.

Making flexi tickets the same cost as equivalent day or season tickets is an opportunity missed. Most trains are carrying air at the moment so worth a go. The DfT and railways have to get people back on trains and that means if they have to be aggressive and implement 'loss leader' schemes over the next 6 to 12 months then so be it.

One point missed in this argument is that a) many offices still have very restricted access and b) there actually isn't much point in offering too much of a discount if what they want to encourage is people going back most of the time - eg "I might as well just pay for the annual season ticket and be done with it".

 

[bubieyehyeh]

I'm guessing Brighton to East Croydon is a higher price for the Anytime ticket? Indeed it is, at £42.90. Any journey where peak fares against the main flow are cheaper is likely to have this happen.

So could you use the east croydon - brighton flex ticket for a brighton - croydon commute, or will the smart card not work if you start at the tickets destination, or when you return from the tickets start point?

 

[Haywain]

So could you use the east croydon - brighton flex ticket for a brighton - croydon commute, or will the smart card not work if you start at the tickets destination, or when you return from the tickets start point?

There is only one fare for flexi tickets between Brighton and East Croydon because it’s a reversible ticket.

 

[Failed Unit]

As I dreaded, this represents an 18.5% price increase for two- or three-day-a-week commuters vs the existing carnet product from Welwyn Garden City to London Terminals.

1x Peak Carnet @ £8.60 + 1x Off-Peak Carnet @ 6.20 = £14.80 per day
Flexi Season = £17.55 per day

With no evening-peak restrictions to WGC, this Peak/Off-Peak carnet combo was a very popular choice for many people - it was even better value than an annual season for four-day commuters.

And this is in the Transport Secretary's home constituency! If the carnet is withdrawn, I expect his office will be receiving some irate calls and emails when people realise.

I must admit that was my fear. I must admit that the carnet was probably too good to be true. But the peak carnet is dead so will need to see if peak single of peak carnet is better. This route needed you to be in 5 days to justify a season. But the biggest advantage of the carnets was you could give them to other people. (Legally as in they date them and abide to TandC)

will write to Grant pointing out the 18.5% increase. He will ignore it.

we had a good deal while it lasted.

I see tfl will offer the journey at £16.50 Per day. With the peak tfl / off-peak carnet taking it down to 15.80 as posted earlier.

 

[Watershed]

You're forgetting the fact that the existing carnets were far from consistent in periods of validity.

And of course whenever such "inconsistencies" arise, the Government's solution is to choose the lowest common denominator and standardise on that. Funny, that.

 

[benk1342]

I must admit that was my fear. I must admit that the carnet was probably too good to be true. But the peak carnet is dead so will need to see if peak single of peak carnet is better. This route needed you to be in 5 days to justify a season. But the biggest advantage of the carnets was you could give them to other people. (Legally as in they date them and abide to TandC)

will write to Grant pointing out the 18.5% increase. He will ignore it.

we had a good deal while it lasted.

I see tfl will offer the journey at £16.50 Per day. With the peak tfl / off-peak carnet taking it down to 15.80 as posted earlier.

Evening peak restrictions apply to the TfL Contactless fare, so the £16.50 applies only if you return outside those hours. The benefit of the London-WGC Off-Peak Carnet is that there is no evening peak restriction.

As you say, we had a good run. Contactless in, Off Peak Carnet back will have to suffice!

 

[Wolfie]

And of course whenever such "inconsistencies" arise, the Government's solution is to choose the lowest common denominator and standardise on that. Funny, that.

Exactly what they have done on civil service T&Cs.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I have to say having now seen what we're getting it feels like the main error here is branding. They'd have been far better served avoiding any reference to 'seasons' and having gone in on this being a widespread rollout of carnets along with some modernisation (no more writing in pen which might get you prosecuted if it's even a tiny bit smudged).

Having a carnet scheme on most flows is a great idea. Trying to tart these up as "flexi-seasons" is just going to lead to disappointment and bad press.

Whilst "Flexi-Season" isn't the best of names, it hints that they have increased validity compared to a Carnet (which are only valid for a Single or Return journey, depending on the TOC).

That most people are unlikely to use the unlimited travel presumably didn't occur to D(a)fT when naming them.

 

[iharding]

Whilst "Flexi-Season" isn't the best of names, it hints that they have increased validity compared to a Carnet (which are only valid for a Single or Return journey, depending on the TOC).

That most people are unlikely to use the unlimited travel presumably didn't occur to D(a)fT when naming them.

Probably an unintended consequence, but as they are a season presumably it's valid to split a journey over two flexi season tickets on separate smartcards with no requirement for the train to stop at the split point. This assumes it's possible to activate the second part of the journey at the origin station, or using the mobile app.