Flooding at Farringdon

[grid56126]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCSkX0SDjgs&feature=youtu.be

I was thinking of having a 387 bash tomorrow. . .

 

[Saint66]

I see that TL tweeted to someone not so long ago that two of the trains per hour will be semi-stop, while two will be all stop tomorrow.

 

[The Box Photter]

Thameslink has just Tweeted in response to my query that the 4 tph Bedford - St Pancras will be 2 limited stop and two all stations.

Sounds a bit grim.

I can't see the need to cut the service back quite that much, especially as the lines north of St Pancras are fine, allowing running on slow and fast lines as usual.

Call me cynical but once again it seems that operational convenience has taken precedence over the needs of the travelling public.

 

[Class377]

I need to travel into London on Tuesday afternoon (and back in the evening) from St Albans. Due to the TL works I was going to bail out at St Pancras anyway. Appreciate this is probably not the best place to post this, but will there still be issues by Tuesday?

I need to be at St Pancras approximately 3:45 PM, and NR journey planner was telling me to get the 15:18 arriving 15:39. Should I just aim to get to St Albans half 2 and hope for the best if it's going to be mayhem?

 

[jon0844]

It will be worse from April if the Herts CC proposed cuts in bus subsidies go ahead. In the proposed timetable on the consultation website it looks like the last service bus to Luton will then leave Stevenage at 18:45 - it passes through Hitchin but via St Mary's Square/hermitage Road, not from Hitchin Station. THe current last 2 buses will be withdrawn unless Arriva run them commercially. (it does pick up outside Stevenage station). It looks like there will still be a regular evening service for Hatfield to St Albans (though maybe a reduced frequency).

One bus, the 602, will stop at 7pm but with two services late night on Friday or Saturday evening (can't remember which) during term time. Of course, the fact this service regularly ran early or skipped stops probably meant many people, including myself, long gave up trying to use it. So it effectively killed itself.

 

[The Box Photter]

I need to travel into London on Tuesday afternoon (and back in the evening) from St Albans. Due to the TL works I was going to bail out at St Pancras anyway. Appreciate this is probably not the best place to post this, but will there still be issues by Tuesday?

I need to be at St Pancras approximately 3:45 PM, and NR journey planner was telling me to get the 15:18 arriving 15:39. Should I just aim to get to St Albans half 2 and hope for the best if it's going to be mayhem?

Hire a car

 

[jon0844]

Any inside information on the "plan" for the morning ...?

Chaos, descending into anarchy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So 4 tph vice 14 tph - very serious issue - (I am hoping Thames Water get poked with a very sharp stick as a result - )

Won't that cause more leaks?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Chaos, descending into anarchy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Won't that cause more leaks?

Some of us recall the major Thames Water leak / burst around East Croydon not so long ago....

It will not be a good peak ...

 

[The Box Photter]

Chaos, descending into anarchy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Won't that cause more leaks?

Just get the chief executive of Thames Water down there to plug the leak with wads of cash. He's sure to have a few £million lying about the house. Failing that he can use his own well fed fat cat arse to do the job.

 

[Class377/5]

Thameslink has just Tweeted in response to my query that the 4 tph Bedford - St Pancras will be 2 limited stop and two all stations.

Sounds a bit grim.

I can't see the need to cut the service back quite that much, especially as the lines north of St Pancras are fine, allowing running on slow and fast lines as usual.

Call me cynical but once again it seems that operational convenience has taken precedence over the needs of the travelling public.

Doesn't work like that. There are many naive comments over driver workings, especially comparing the Victoria Line where one simple back and forth line is compared to Thameslink's six different lines with more in peak all with unique knowledge. Simple workings require more drivers than normal. They don't magically appear at will.

 

[DelayRepay]

Looks like a work from home day tomorrow then... I hope the bill for all this is passed to Thames Water.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Doesn't work like that. There are many naive comments over driver workings, especially comparing the Victoria Line where one simple back and forth line is compared to Thameslink's six different lines with more in peak all with unique knowledge. Simple workings require more drivers than normal. They don't magically appear at will.

I kind of understand this - but there ought to be a plan in place for running the service when the core is closed. And they should be able to muster more than 2 fast and 2 slow trains per hour. I understand they can't run the normal level of service but these cuts feel extreme.

 

[The Box Photter]

Doesn't work like that. There are many naive comments over driver workings, especially comparing the Victoria Line where one simple back and forth line is compared to six different lines with more in peak all with unique knowledge. Simple workings require more drivers than normal. They don't magically appear at will.

I wondered when you'd pop up to tell us what CAN'T be done.

How does running a service every 15 mins use more drivers than the normal one? It seems inconceivable that all normally rostered drivers wouldn't sign the route between Bedford & St Pancras.

I realise they won't be able to take their trains all the way to Brighton, but my observations indicate that many trains change drivers at Blackfriars anyway. I also know they don't appear in the right place by magic, that's why around four hours ago I suggested they use a modern invention called a "Hotel" in which the driver can have a lovely night's sleep before starting his shift in a more useful place.

Its not like this problem only happened this afternoon, the flooding started last week and only became an issue on Friday. Who's been sitting on their hands for the past few days whilst they wait for Thames Water to put a cork in the hole?

As far as the route between Bedford & St Pancras is concerned it is a simple back and forth line. Wimbledon Loop trains can terminate at Blackfriars in the bay platforms there and Brighton services can run into London Bridge and Blackfriars. I see no route knowledge issues here, but then I'm not an expert in telling people what can't be done, I prefer to investigate all possible solutions before filing the problem in the drawer marked "too difficult".

 

[lev441]

It does seem pretty poor to just have 4 trains running per hour.... I feel sorry for the commuters tomorrow morning!

When the core was closed for the St Pancras station box building, they managed a decent enough service whilst the core was closed for six months....?

 

[Bald Rick]

The track layout at St P LL is not conducive to turning round more than about 6-8 tph in the LL platforms - the crossovers are quite a way north (and south) of the tunnels. Eg a northbound train leaving the Southbound platform takes around 2 mins on the 'wrong' line before crossing over at 15mph. Including time to get in, turnaround, etc etc, does limit the effective capacity.

I must admit I can't see why 6 tph isn't possible though.

 

[DelayRepay]

I must admit I can't see why 6 tph isn't possible though.

They do say additional services may run during peak hours, so I guess we could see 6tph. Is there any scope for sneaking one or two services into the EMT platforms when they're not looking?

I hope they run everything as 8/12 car services to maximise capacity. If they get the message out tonight that people shouldn't try to travel and enough people make other arrangements they might be ok.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

If you run into the SPX platforms "upstairs" - you clock up rather impressive station access costs aka HS1 - something like £30 a vehicle ......

Another benefit of privatisation...

 

[lev441]

The track layout at St P LL is not conducive to turning round more than about 6-8 tph in the LL platforms - the crossovers are quite a way north (and south) of the tunnels. Eg a northbound train leaving the Southbound platform takes around 2 mins on the 'wrong' line before crossing over at 15mph. Including time to get in, turnaround, etc etc, does limit the effective capacity.

I must admit I can't see why 6 tph isn't possible though.

That does sound like an operating nightmare if that is the case/placement of the crossovers..

 

[The Box Photter]

Of course some of the slow line platforms can only accommodate 8 car trains.

Given that stations south of Elstree are within Greater London and fall within the scheduled TfL bus network, I can't see the need to have any trains call at Mill Hill, Hendon, Cricklewood and Kentish Town during situations like this.

Omitting these stops would inconvenience some intending passengers, but they would have the option of a short, health-inducing walk to the nearest tube station or a frequent bus service to link into the Underground.

North of Elstree Tunnel, Thameslink is pretty much the only show in town. Similarly, I don't see the need to run services north of Blackfriars up to Farringdon. This simply complicates the service pattern and delays turnaround times.

If I could, I'd work from home tomorrow, but I have no alternative but to attempt to get into London.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you run into the SPX platforms "upstairs" - you clock up rather impressive station access costs aka HS1 - something like £30 a vehicle ......

Another benefit of privatisation...

It also presents a conundrum for departing passengers, do you go upstairs / downstairs, and if there is say only 1 an hour upstairs you can guarantee many people will miss it.

 

[DelayRepay]

It also presents a conundrum for departing passengers, do you go upstairs / downstairs, and if there is say only 1 an hour upstairs you can guarantee many people will miss it.

During the morning peak it doesn't matter because it would be an incoming train.

During the evening peak, simply position staff by the barriers telling people to go upstairs until it's full and standing. Make it only stop fast to Luton, they're used to going upstairs for EMT anyway.

Neither this or the £30 per vehicle cost are really valid reasons not to use these platforms if there is capacity.

 

[ModernRailways]

Couldn't some Thameslink sets turn back at West Hampstead? Maybe, the all stations would be the ones to terminate at West Hampstead, and then have the semi-fasts running into St Pancras?

Also, what's the EMT platforms at St Pancras like in the mornings? Are there any 'spare' that Thameslink could have possibly used?

Anyone travelling on Thameslink in the morning is going to be a nice, sweaty state by the time they reach their destination!

 

[user15681]

Half hourly Sevenoaks to Blackfriars all day tomorrow. Some morning peak SE terminators at Blackfriars will be diverted to Victoria to free up space.

 

[21C101]

Timetables now up.

Morning Peak: Six per hour in the peak, four from Bedford, fast from St Alb then west H and St P, two St albans to St Pan shuttles.

Offpeak 4 per hour all from Bedford, two fast from St Albans calling west H and St P only

Evening Peak: Six per hour all trains calling all stations!


http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/posters/TLNorth.pdf

South of Thames timetable here (now correct timetable)

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/posters/TLSouth(1).pdf

 

[user15681]

Bedford to St Pancras and return 4tph all day. Morning peak extra 2tph St Albans to St Pancras all stops, evening peak extra 2tph St Pancras to Bedford all stops.

 

[The Box Photter]

Evening peak trains from St Pancras north appear to be every ten minutes, but they're all calling at all stations.

Good luck if you're planning to get on at West Hampstead!

 

[21C101]

Evening peak trains from St Pancras north appear to be every ten minutes, but they're all calling at all stations.

Good luck if you're planning to get on at West Hampstead!

Think I will get a fast to Bedford and come back.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Its not like this problem only happened this afternoon, the flooding started last week and only became an issue on Friday. Who's been sitting on their hands for the past few days whilst they wait for Thames Water to put a cork in the hole?

If only.....

As of Saturday afternoon, the water was receding, and NR hoped to restore the track circuit to allow POSA working through the core, thus permitting a full service.
Something changed on Sunday and more water entered the tunnel.
So no, no-one was sitting on their hands doing nothing....

 

[Hophead]

Timetables now up.

Morning Peak: Six per hour in the peak, four from Bedford, fast from St Alb then west H and St P, two St albans to St Pan shuttles.

Offpeak 4 per hour all from Bedford, two fast from St Albans calling west H and St P only

Evening Peak: Six per hour all trains calling all stations!


http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/posters/TLNorth.pdf

South of Thames timetable here (now correct timetable)

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/posters/TLSouth(1).pdf

Links to the same documents on the Thameslink website are returning a 404 ("page not found")!

 

[LBSCR Times]

That does sound like an operating nightmare if that is the case/placement of the crossovers..

The biggest issue in running through the core is surprisingly, what the signaller can handle.
This is why, on Friday, NR only allowed 5 trains per hour in each direction.
The nature of the panel doesnt allow the signaller to have an extra pair of hands to assist them unfortunately.

 

[The Box Photter]

If only.....

As of Saturday afternoon, the water was receding, and NR hoped to restore the track circuit to allow POSA working through the core, thus permitting a full service.
Something changed on Sunday and more water entered the tunnel.
So no, no-one was sitting on their hands doing nothing....

OK, so who turned the water back on?

If NR didn't know why water was flooding the track, it ought to have found out. Did NR just hope the water would recede naturally, in which case, there ought to have been contingency planning in case it started to flood again.

If NR did find out what was causing the flooding, what steps did it take to ensure the cause had been removed?

It sounds to me like NR was watching the floodwater go down and hoping for the best. In the meantime, GoVia should have been working out a contingency in case the flood wan't cleared by Monday am.

Hasn't anyone learned how to contingency plan, even after the Christmas Kings Cross farce?