Flooding in the Leeds area: impact on the railway

[stuartmoss]

I've seen this footage taken yesterday, which pretty much rules out anything going down the Aire Valley Line: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVvcRhFxVw0 (footage is at Kirkstall).

Does anyone know if any other lines around Leeds have been effected?

 

[Deerfold]

Nothing is planned to run today Leeds-Skipton, Leeds-Ilkley, Leeds-Shipley-Bradford, Todmorden-Rochdale.

 

[Jonny]

Perhaps there needs to be more dredging of rivers, with penalties for the relevant local authorities if the railway is affected by a failure to do so.

 

[AndyW33]

Perhaps there needs to be more dredging of rivers, with penalties for the relevant local authorities if the railway is affected by a failure to do so.

Dredging isn't usually the responsibility of the local authorities at all. It falls to the central government via the Environment Agency in England, or, if the river is navigable at the point concerned, to the Canal and River Trust (the successor to British Waterways).
Its fair to say that the C&RT do dredge, because the river would soon stop being navigable if they didn't and people would notice boats running aground. The Environment Agency on the other hand gets its budget cut, has to stop doing things, and nobody notices until floods arrive.

Contact your MP, not that it will make much difference.

 

[Minilad]

Dredging isn't usually the responsibility of the local authorities at all. It falls to the central government via the Environment Agency in England, or, if the river is navigable at the point concerned, to the Canal and River Trust (the successor to British Waterways).
Its fair to say that the C&RT do dredge, because the river would soon stop being navigable if they didn't and people would notice boats running aground. The Environment Agency on the other hand gets its budget cut, has to stop doing things, and nobody notices until floods arrive.

Contact your MP, not that it will make much difference.

Can't wait for Cameron to come along telling everyone how he feels really sorry for all the hard working families affected by this and how the government will do all it can to help those in need.

 

[nidave]

Perhaps there needs to be more dredging of rivers, with penalties for the relevant local authorities if the railway is affected by a failure to do so.

The environment agency has had its funding slashed in recent years so it is trying to do more with less money. There is going to have to be an injection of cash. According to the BBC they have had a cut of 8% http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12402284

 

[RAPC]

To have dealt with some of the flooding issues this year where rivers have reached never seen levels (such as the Ribble in Lancashire), budget cuts really won't have made a difference. It will take a prioritisation of policy and investment that no government of any colour has made previously in the UK.

Thoughts are with all those impacted by the floods at the moment.

 

[Haydn1971]

Dredging isn't usually the responsibility of the local authorities at all. It falls to the central government via the Environment Agency in England,

Also, dredging can make flooding worse in that water gets to obstructions quicker - there is no silver bullet, especially for areas already developed on flood plain land. My advise has been always to check your proposed house purchase for flood risk before even looking. Railway wise, it's perhaps easier to resolve in that works can be completed to ensure damage is reduced or mitigated in "most" areas, but there's always going to be pinch points that effectively cut a route in two where nothing can be economically done to prevent flood damage.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Both Todmorden and Walsden have a very long history of being affected by flood waters in deeply profiled river valleys.

 

[najaB]

Also, dredging can make flooding worse in that water gets to obstructions quicker - there is no silver bullet, especially for areas already developed on flood plain land.

Indeed. The best course of action is to try and trap the water in the hills and slow the rush into the valleys. That way rivers don't rise as far, as fast. The thing is that it's not 'sexy' so doesn't make as good press as flood barriers in the centre of town.

 

[PHILIPE]

Can't wait for Cameron to come along telling everyone how he feels really sorry for all the hard working families affected by this and how the government will do all it can to help those in need.

And promise financial help and goes away and forgets all about it.

 

[AM9]

Whilst everbody in office wants to highlight the follies of building on flood plains in the future, the elephant in the room is how to address developments already there. It's true that hundreds of thousands of dwellings/industries/communications links are involved but with what seems to be new weather patterns threatening the functioning of large parts of the country, pretending that dredging, building higher walls and bigger pumps will get us all through it is naïve at best and deceitful the longer it is allowed now that their minimal impact is understood.
It's not just about cash or who is responsible. As RAPC says, it will take a whole new approach to the issue of land use, infrastructure hardening and where appropriate, planning for rapid recovery after the unstoppable forces of nature have to be allowed to do their work.
Having visited Hebden Bridge in August, seeing its plight on the news today was saddening. I assume that the line is safely above the flooded areas so services can be run through there when needed.

 

[Haydn1971]

I'm chuckling at the moment at the news that David Cameron is chairing a COBRA meeting - Wait, the PM is doing his job is now news

I've seen floods in Hebden Bridge before, I worked in Calderdale for 5yrs - never seen anything as high as yesterday though. Trouble is as said above is the 100,000's of homes that are already in the known flood areas - you can only do so much to protect them and people don't want to move their homes, many of whom will have moved into these homes in the full knowledge of their new purchase being in a flood risk area. Then they scream what's the government going to do to protect my risk :-/

 

[Class 170101]

Where I live there are new houses being built on flood risk areas :roll:

However there is also an area just up river which is used for cattle grazing at certain times of year, this area is allowed to flood at times of high water flow like this. A cricket ground in the area is also allowed to flood.

Fortunately not tested, like the current situation in the north, in the last few years.

 

[deltic]

Perhaps there needs to be more dredging of rivers, with penalties for the relevant local authorities if the railway is affected by a failure to do so.

Probably less dredging is needed which just speeds up water flow to the first urban bottleneck and far more upstream tree planting to slow down water running off the hills

 

[plcd1]

Can't wait for Cameron to come along telling everyone how he feels really sorry for all the hard working families affected by this and how the government will do all it can to help those in need.

Didn't have to wait long - he's just been on the box saying exactly that. I don't know why he bothers given there's no genuine commitment to increase spending on flood defences or to change other government policies. Also telling that he was happy to do nothing "obvious" yesterday and waited until today to talk to Ministers on the phone. Unfortunately all this will be completely forgotten by the time we get to 2020 and the next election.

 

[brompton rail]

So if several centimetres of silt is dredged from the River Ouse at York this will help alleviate the flooding? Of course it will, oh! wait the river is currently over 5 metres above normal. Oh dear!

 

[IanXC]

I must say I think dredging really can be part of the solution. Much as people mention bottle necks, if these are reviewed as a riverwide scheme benefits can be obtained. It's illustrative to examine the case of the River Serven, not that many years ago flooding in Bewdley, Worcester, Upton etc was relatively frequent. The effect of the works undertaken (principally, although not entirely, construction of higher permanent and temporary defences) is to increase the speed the river flows at, therefore clearing flood water faster. (I would not disagree that measures to keep the water higher in the river basin will not also help).

Switch to the River Humber, and its appreciable quite how slowly it does flow. Now examine the flood risk eminating from its tributaries, for instance the Ouse as it passes through York. I was surprised to discover that 40 years ago 13 large dredgers were used to dredge the Humber, which clearly is not going to remove mere centimetres. I had a lengthy conversation with an engineer who worked on the Humber estuary hydrodynamic model when the bridge was being constructed, and at that time the river did indeed flow appreciably faster, and the modelling showed this to be an outcome of dredging...

 

[47802]

Both Todmorden and Walsden have a very long history of being affected by flood waters in deeply profiled river valleys.

While there are areas prone to flooding some the area we have seen flooded yesterday are very rare. Certainly where I live in Yorkshire it seems to have been raining more or less for the past month. Today at last is actually a beautiful sunny day for once.

 

[AM9]

While there are areas prone to flooding some the area we have seen flooded yesterday are very rare. Certainly where I live in Yorkshire it seems to have been raining more or less for the past month. Today at last is actually a beautiful sunny day for once.

So if there are areas where flooding is 'very rare', there is a choice:

change the nature of the area with ridiculously intrusive flood defense measure that just push the problem away to somewhere else
or
just grin and bear the 'rare' consequences and make provisions for evacuation and to clear-up as quick as is practicable.​

The loss of amenity in the first option would be seen by some to be too high a price to pay. Ultimately, extreme defences infrastructure would remove the attraction of living in some of those places that nature should be left to its own devices.
If that is so then ironically, in human terms, the second option is better providing that when it does flood, there insn't a high risk to human life. Damage to homes and other property is after all a material loss rather than life itself.

 

[trainophile]

I do hope all our Yorkshire forum members are okay. Please check in and let us know, if you are reading this thread.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Indeed. The best course of action is to try and trap the water in the hills and slow the rush into the valleys. That way rivers don't rise as far, as fast. The thing is that it's not 'sexy' so doesn't make as good press as flood barriers in the centre of town.

There have been several people arguing recently that the clearing of hilly areas of their trees for (especially) sheep farming has resulted in the rain run-off being much quicker, in hours rather than days, thus leading to rapid rising of river levels downstream.

I've read recently that sheep-farming in Britain is largely a loss-making industry that's only kept alive with big subsidies; if that's the case, might it therefore not be wise to replant upland sheep-pasture areas with trees? This might be a better and almost certainly cheaper alternative to building ever-higher flood defences in towns downstream.

 

[bluenoxid]

Run off has certainly impacted many areas. Places half way up the side of a valley have been hit by floodin because water channels down hill towards a pinch point. A lot of problems are local. Rubbish and leaves are not being cleared up.

 

[Taunton]

The environment agency has had its funding slashed in recent years so it is trying to do more with less money. There is going to have to be an injection of cash. According to the BBC they have had a cut of 8%

Elimination of dredging by the "Environment Agency" of the drainage rivers in the Somerset Levels, low-lying flat land, is universally seen as the issue behind the recent floods there - remember the TV news pictures of the HST surrounded by water at Athelney. Ever since the responsibility for flood control was taken away from competent and experienced regional organisations and given to the "Environment Agency", ludicrous London-centric ideas have been allowed to dominate over traditional management, whose engineers now have to kow-tow to overpaid Whitehall know-nothings fresh from the Oxford University Green Party (experienced water engineers need not apply). Actually, in a scenario comparable to the departure of British Rail's engineering management, many have just left for pastures new.

Far more important than flood control of many people's homes was "maintaining the environment for the Water Vole", one of the principal excuses for ending dredging in Somerset, while although the costs of this was cut out, there was always plenty of money for big signage trumpeting the agency's new name, putting in wheelchair access to land which is now flooded, and so on.

Now it's impacted Lancashire and Yorkshire as well.

 

[al78]

So if several centimetres of silt is dredged from the River Ouse at York this will help alleviate the flooding? Of course it will, oh! wait the river is currently over 5 metres above normal. Oh dear!

The dredging issue has come up before (Somerset levels, early 2014 floods) and I do wonder whether it would really make any significant difference. I have heard an unconfirmed report that Honister has received two meters of rain since the 1st November, with that much rain falling over a hilly area and the water then flowing down into the narrow confines of a river, how much difference can dredging really make? I wonder if it would be better if possible to allow some parts of the floodplain to flood naturally or even allow it to transition back to a natural state. If the water can be allowed to flood an area which is little used by people that might ease the flooding further downstream where the main areas of population are. Problem is we seem to think we can win a losing battle against nature with brute force engineering when we would be far better off trying to find solutions that work alongside natural processes.

 

[Aldaniti]

Elimination of dredging by the "Environment Agency" of the drainage rivers in the Somerset Levels, low-lying flat land, is universally seen as the issue behind the recent floods there - remember the TV news pictures of the HST surrounded by water at Athelney. Ever since the responsibility for flood control was taken away from competent and experienced regional organisations and given to the "Environment Agency", ludicrous London-centric ideas have been allowed to dominate over traditional management, whose engineers now have to kow-tow to overpaid Whitehall know-nothings fresh from the Oxford University Green Party (experienced water engineers need not apply). Actually, in a scenario comparable to the departure of British Rail's engineering management, many have just left for pastures new.

Far more important than flood control of many people's homes was "maintaining the environment for the Water Vole", one of the principal excuses for ending dredging in Somerset, while although the costs of this was cut out, there was always plenty of money for big signage trumpeting the agency's new name, putting in wheelchair access to land which is now flooded, and so on.

Now it's impacted Lancashire and Yorkshire as well.

Spot on. I'm also mindful of the part the EU's Water Framework Directive plays in this shambolic state of affairs. I look forward to Cameron's and his ministers hand-wringing over the coming days... look out for the word 'unprecedented' written on the back of their hands as a self-reminder about how to attempt to deflect responsibility.

 

[AM9]

... look out for the word 'unprecedented' written on the back of their hands as a self-reminder about how to attempt to deflect responsibility.

Just like the inadequate levels* of budgets for environmental protection in recent years: unprecedented.

* in real terms

 

[Trog]

They are all at it a Northern Labour MP was just on the TV talking about the floods. Cuts came up about every third sentence, he then winged about how most drainage infrastructure was Victorian and how major government expenditure was needed to fix it. When asked why if the problem was that long standing the last Labour government had not done something about it. His reply was that this was not a suitable subject for political points scoring.

Then they wonder why all politicians are generally held in contempt by the public.

 

[AM9]

... there was always plenty of money for big signage trumpeting the agency's new name, putting in wheelchair access to land which is now flooded, and so on.

Probably the saving from reduced dredging (which not everybody agrees was the real cause of the exceptional conditions in 2014) was far higher than any costs arising from making access available to all and the odd few signage provisions.
But lets not let it get in the way of a rant about something well off the topic of this thread.
Meanwhile, back to the subject of 'Leeds flooding' ...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They are all at it a Northern Labour MP was just on the TV talking about the floods. Cuts came up about every third sentence, he then winged about how most drainage infrastructure was Victorian and how major government expenditure was needed to fix it. When asked why if the problem was that long standing the last Labour government had not done something about it. His reply was that this was not a suitable subject for political points scoring.

Then they wonder why all politicians are generally held in contempt by the public.

So how similar has the pattern of flooding over the last five years been compared with the previous 13 years, and how have the budgets in real terms been changed?

 

[Trog]

So how similar has the pattern of flooding over the last five years been compared with the previous 13 years, and how have the budgets in real terms been changed?

I have no idea, but that is not relevant to the point I was making anyway.