Flooding in the Leeds area: impact on the railway

[61653 HTAFC]

In the past, Carlisle and Morecambe services have operated into Bradford Forster Square when the line into Leeds is closed for engineering works. Not sure why that hasn't happened this time but it could simply be that there was no chance to plan for it. There's also (as someone mentioned upthread) the lack of access to/from Neville Hill. There'll only be a limited number of units the right side of Kirkstall Lake, so it might be that a unit couldn't get to Bradford and back in time to form the next Northbound service.

 

[Class 170101]

For those ministers that don't think dredging is the answer see between 1:23 and 1:32 - chicken minister
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoYSgE7qJ9s

 

[lejog]

For those ministers that don't think dredging is the answer see between 1:23 and 1:32 - chicken minister
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoYSgE7qJ9s

I certainly don't think dredging is the complete answer, the rivers here in the Upper Calder Valley are fast flowing with rocky bottoms and silting up just doesn't happen. Still floods though.

 

[yorksrob]

In the past, Carlisle and Morecambe services have operated into Bradford Forster Square when the line into Leeds is closed for engineering works. Not sure why that hasn't happened this time but it could simply be that there was no chance to plan for it. There's also (as someone mentioned upthread) the lack of access to/from Neville Hill. There'll only be a limited number of units the right side of Kirkstall Lake, so it might be that a unit couldn't get to Bradford and back in time to form the next Northbound service.

During recent engineering works between Leeds and Shipley, a similar arrangement took place whereby Morecambe and Carlisle services started at Skipton and connected with the Forster Sq trains.

 

[najaB]

I certainly don't think dredging is the complete answer...

There isn't "a" single answer. It's different things needed in different areas. Unfortunately too many people latch on to one idea (be it dredging, walls or diversion schemes) like it's the solution for everything, everywhere.

 

[yorksrob]

A whole range of measures are needed, including dredging, sustainable urban drainage (there are some surfacing products which can absorb water quite impressively), tree lines and floodable areas in the upper valleys and some larger scale infrastructure schemes in urban areas.

 

[AndyW33]

In the past, Carlisle and Morecambe services have operated into Bradford Forster Square when the line into Leeds is closed for engineering works. Not sure why that hasn't happened this time but it could simply be that there was no chance to plan for it. There's also (as someone mentioned upthread) the lack of access to/from Neville Hill. There'll only be a limited number of units the right side of Kirkstall Lake, so it might be that a unit couldn't get to Bradford and back in time to form the next Northbound service.

Then there's the train crews. The Northern traincrew depots at Carlisle, Skipton, and Leeds work these services between them and Leeds is by far the biggest depot, of course. I doubt if some of the Leeds crews rostered to work could even get to their signing on point thanks to the flooding, and by the time they'd been ferried (sorry) by road to somewhere there was a train they could work, and back home again, quite a chunk of the working day is gone.
Does Leeds even sign to Morecambe these days or is this a Skipton speciality ?
The units available would only be those that had spent Christmas at Carlisle and Skipton

 

[westv]

Surprised there doesn't seem to be any mention of flooding outside the "Leeds area" on the forum. Line between Hull and London (via Selby) was shut for a while.

 

[AM9]

A whole range of measures are needed, including dredging, sustainable urban drainage (there are some surfacing products which can absorb water quite impressively), tree lines and floodable areas in the upper valleys and some larger scale infrastructure schemes in urban areas.

And in some extreme cases, painful as it may be, the return of some low-lying land to flood plain use just as nature did for millenia.

 

[Taunton]

There isn't "a" single answer. It's different things needed in different areas. Unfortunately too many people latch on to one idea (be it dredging, walls or diversion schemes) like it's the solution for everything, everywhere.

The reason some of us go on about dredging in flatland areas is that this is how the flooding was controlled, quite successfully, in the Somerset Levels, and apparently in the lower reaches of the Yorkshire rivers as well, until, as I described above, the buffoons at the Environment Agency decided that it upset the Water Voles too much (despite which, unlike us locals, they probably couldn't even recognise one if they saw it, and would probably say "mouse"), and the dredgers were actually sold off at scrap value, ironically to the Netherlands - who must have thought the EA were mad. As did the Somerset locals shortly afterwards, and now those in Yorkshire.

 

[AndyW33]

I would have thought that normal 158's on the Leeds-> Carlisle service would have been perfectly adequate (although one or two units might have needed to go north first via alternative route)

What alternative route? Only realistically possible routes that weren't already blocked by flooding, landslides, or major planned engineering work were to Manchester via Standedge, then Chat Moss or Atherton, Wigan, and WCML to Lancaster and then Skipton, or via Edinburgh to Carlisle. How long is either going to take, and where are you going to find drivers who sign the routes concerned and Class 158s, at the drop of a hat?

 

[PHILIPE]

What alternative route? Only realistically possible routes that weren't already blocked by flooding, landslides, or major planned engineering work were to Manchester via Standedge, then Chat Moss or Atherton, Wigan, and WCML to Lancaster and then Skipton, or via Edinburgh to Carlisle. How long is either going to take, and where are you going to find drivers who sign the routes concerned and Class 158s, at the drop of a hat?

Another possible route not mentioned - Leeds/Newcastle/Carlisle. Ah, but the route between Newcastle and Carlisle was blocked by a landslide.

 

[lejog]

The reason some of us go on about dredging in flatland areas is that this is how the flooding was controlled, quite successfully, in the Somerset Levels, and apparently in the lower reaches of the Yorkshire rivers as well, until, as I described above, the buffoons at the Environment Agency decided that it upset the Water Voles too much (despite which, unlike us locals, they probably couldn't even recognise one if they saw it, and would probably say "mouse"), and the dredgers were actually sold off at scrap value, ironically to the Netherlands - who must have thought the EA were mad. As did the Somerset locals shortly afterwards, and now those in Yorkshire.

Changing your tune now to include only flatland areas? Go on as much as you like, but it has not been established in any scientific manner that dredging helps, except to move water and the flooding problem downstream faster.

 

[najaB]

Changing your tune now to include only flatland areas? Go on as much as you like, but it has not been established in any scientific manner that dredging helps, except to move water and the flooding problem downstream faster.

As well as resulting in increased loss of nice fertile soil to the sea.

 

[yorksrob]

What alternative route? Only realistically possible routes that weren't already blocked by flooding, landslides, or major planned engineering work were to Manchester via Standedge, then Chat Moss or Atherton, Wigan, and WCML to Lancaster and then Skipton, or via Edinburgh to Carlisle. How long is either going to take, and where are you going to find drivers who sign the routes concerned and Class 158s, at the drop of a hat?

Interestingly, I was coming back from Lancaster during a recent blockade and the usual unit failed near Morecambe. After a long wait, I was surprised to see a 158 arrive to take us back to Skipton - the only occasion I recall getting one on the route. Where it came from exactly, I don't know, but it got us back to Skipton alright!

 

[DarloRich]

i wonder where any units trapped skipton side of the blockage are getting fed and watered?

 

[yorksrob]

i wonder where any units trapped skipton side of the blockage are getting fed and watered?

"were". Trains running through as normal today, fortunately.

 

[DarloRich]

"were". Trains running through as normal today, fortunately.

thats good news - i am disconected from the matrix so didnt know

 

[61653 HTAFC]

"were". Trains running through as normal today, fortunately.

Huge credit to the Orange Army there, thought it'd be next year before it reopened!

 

[yorksrob]

Huge credit to the Orange Army there, thought it'd be next year before it reopened!

Indeed, a very good job done by all involved.

 

[backontrack]

I hope that no forum members were caught up in the flooding.

 

[Grumpy]

Talking to an old Holbeck driver today, he recalled how flooding over the track by the former Kirkstall station was always a problem in steam days. At that time the instruction was to close the damper to reduce the risk of water getting to the fire, slow down a bit, and just drive through the flood.
The solution is therefore obvious.

 

[krus_aragon]

Talking to an old Holbeck driver today, he recalled how flooding over the track by the former Kirkstall station was always a problem in steam days. At that time the instruction was to close the damper to reduce the risk of water getting to the fire, slow down a bit, and just drive through the flood.
The solution is therefore obvious.

What, recommission the strategic steam reserve? :P

 

[class 9]

Talking to an old Holbeck driver today, he recalled how flooding over the track by the former Kirkstall station was always a problem in steam days. At that time the instruction was to close the damper to reduce the risk of water getting to the fire, slow down a bit, and just drive through the flood.
The solution is therefore obvious.

It's right that flooding at Kirkstall has always been a problem, given that in normal conditions the railway is only slightly above river level.
The flooding this time was considerably worse than previous floodings and it was flowing quite fast so the possibility for ballast to be washed away was a distinct possibility, even in steam days the job will have been stopped and probably for same length of time. It took 2 days to pump the water away after the river level had subsided, then a thorough inspection will have been carried out.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There is also the point that the underside of a steam locomotive isn't stuffed full of electrics.

 

[TUC]

Huge credit to the Orange Army there, thought it'd be next year before it reopened!

Having previously lived in Northern Ireland, all this talk about the Orange Army conjures up rather different images!

 

[Busaholic]

And promise financial help and goes away and forgets all about it.

As with Dawlish last year, all promises conveniently forgotten about (''well, you got a new wall, didn't you?'') and now with the added bonus of a Tory MP in every constituency bar one, so nobody to make disobliging noises.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Having previously lived in Northern Ireland, all this talk about the Orange Army conjures up rather different images!

Ah, rather clumsy phrasing on my part!

 

[Ploughman]

Talking to an old Holbeck driver today, he recalled how flooding over the track by the former Kirkstall station was always a problem in steam days. At that time the instruction was to close the damper to reduce the risk of water getting to the fire, slow down a bit, and just drive through the flood.
The solution is therefore obvious.

When the line was electrified, Br 24 (which is the one were the flooding occurs)
had the track lowered underneath the bridge, thus making any flooding worse.
Why, because it would have cost to much to raise the bridge and also the inconvenience to road traffic.
How much has it cost since then in damage and delays?

 

[Taunton]

Elimination of dredging by the "Environment Agency" of the drainage rivers in the Somerset Levels, low-lying flat land, is universally seen as the issue behind the recent floods there - remember the TV news pictures of the HST surrounded by water at Athelney. Ever since the responsibility for flood control was taken away from competent and experienced regional organisations and given to the "Environment Agency", ludicrous London-centric ideas have been allowed to dominate over traditional management, whose engineers now have to kow-tow to overpaid Whitehall know-nothings fresh from the Oxford University Green Party (experienced water engineers need not apply).

Far more important than flood control of many people's homes was "maintaining the environment for the Water Vole", one of the principal excuses for ending dredging in Somerset.

What a surprise ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35213310

... but I'm sure the "Water vole loonies" in Whitehall are preparing a counter-attack.