Football ‘fans’ Trash Cardiff to London Train.

[Scott1]

That's quite an assertion. Do you have any evidence to support it?

In my experience, attending matches home and away, the number of arrests in the last few years have been zero, with one exception.

Gov stats on arrests for 21/22 season

There were 2,198 arrests for the first 'proper' season after covid, out of, about 3000 games. So about two thirds. The stats on my region are worse, but thats likely because we see certain teams more than others, so it will vary a bit over the country.

As I said, and I think to be fair it is easy to overlook, certainly something that I'm guilty of sometimes, it isn't all teams, but it is a lot. Ignoring the problem and sticking our head in the sand is getting us no where. The reality is you just don't see these issues with other sports. My area is a heavy rugby kinda place, and there great. I enjoy a train full of rugby fans, there a good laugh, they certainly don't start ruining everyone else's journey, and usually any problems are sorted by other fans before I even hear about them.

I'd love if there was a shift in football to the, almost, self policing you see in some sport fans groups. Especially because for the other fans this has got to be something they find embarrassing? It's not exactly a reputation people should be proud of.

 

[Wolfie]

Gov stats on arrests for 21/22 season

There were 2,198 arrests for the first 'proper' season after covid, out of, about 3000 games. So about two thirds. The stats on my region are worse, but thats likely because we see certain teams more than others, so it will vary a bit over the country.

As I said, and I think to be fair it is easy to overlook, certainly something that I'm guilty of sometimes, it isn't all teams, but it is a lot. Ignoring the problem and sticking our head in the sand is getting us no where. The reality is you just don't see these issues with other sports. My area is a heavy rugby kinda place, and there great. I enjoy a train full of rugby fans, there a good laugh, they certainly don't start ruining everyone else's journey, and usually any problems are sorted by other fans before I even hear about them.

I'd love if there was a shift in football to the, almost, self policing you see in some sport fans groups. Especially because for the other fans this has got to be something they find embarrassing? It's not exactly a reputation people should be proud of.

Highly dubious and selective use of statistics. Where is your evidence that the 2.2k arrests were all independent. That is the implicit assumption of your "two thirds" claim. What if there were say 100 arrests at each of 22 games? That is no less likely than the scenario that you cite...

 

[Iskra]

Gov stats on arrests for 21/22 season

There were 2,198 arrests for the first 'proper' season after covid, out of, about 3000 games. So about two thirds. The stats on my region are worse, but thats likely because we see certain teams more than others, so it will vary a bit over the country.

As I said, and I think to be fair it is easy to overlook, certainly something that I'm guilty of sometimes, it isn't all teams, but it is a lot. Ignoring the problem and sticking our head in the sand is getting us no where. The reality is you just don't see these issues with other sports. My area is a heavy rugby kinda place, and there great. I enjoy a train full of rugby fans, there a good laugh, they certainly don't start ruining everyone else's journey, and usually any problems are sorted by other fans before I even hear about them.

I'd love if there was a shift in football to the, almost, self policing you see in some sport fans groups. Especially because for the other fans this has got to be something they find embarrassing? It's not exactly a reputation people should be proud of.

Yes, but arrests are unlikely singular, as it usually takes two to have a fight and more arrests happen when there is widespread disorder, so more likely to be more occurrences of multiple arrests. Put against the earlier stat of around 35 million attendees and then considering that not all arrests lead to a) a charge or b) being found guilty the numbers are tiny. I reckon there are many more arrests for Drunk and Disorderly across town centres on a Saturday night than at the football each week by a long way (Edit: in fact Northumbria Police alone arrested nearly 12,000 for that in 2020... ...someone will be along shortly to tell me they'd all been at the football!)

 

[WelshBluebird]

Gov stats on arrests for 21/22 season

There were 2,198 arrests for the first 'proper' season after covid, out of, about 3000 games.

The number has already been replied to by others, but I'd also question what a "football related arrest" is defined as, and ask is it as wide as the criteria often used for a football banning order (which in the past has included totally unrelated incident in other cities hours after a match).

 

[domcoop7]

As has been said before, the key issue is alcohol. Of course, given the popularity of football, and how it is a team sport unlike horse racing, that means there will be a greater amount of aggro around football than around horse racing.

The two worst train journeys I can recall were one from Chester to Liverpool and another from Manchester to Liverpool. The Chester one, myself wife and kids just went for a day out without realising it was the races. The journey back was horrendous, tanked up yobs screaming banging seats, windows, ceilings. Funnily enough, even though it had nothing to do with a football match, pretty much the entire journey there was one guy screaming at the top of his lungs over, and over, and over, and over again "de de de de de Lou-is Sua-rez, de de de " (to the tune of Just Can't Get Enough by Depeche Mode). All the banging was threatening and the feeling that if you looked at one of them the wrong way it would be you next.

The Manchester to Liverpool one was the last train back, and had nothing to do with football either. Just drunks. These ones were literally standing on the tables jumping up and down (oh how I wished for an emergency stop to knock them all over!). Screaming to women "get you t**s out for the lads". These ones kept coming to us saying "come and join the party" and again its just intimidating.

In both cases, I remember mates of the protagonists saying things along the lines of "we're just having a laugh, it's banter innit kidda" etc.

This country has had a problem with alcohol consumption for as long as I can remember. Tony Blair thought he'd turn us into some stereotypical sophisticated European style cafe / wine culture - that was one of the main arguments for the Licensing Act 2002, which was (according to media at the time) going to bring in "24 hour drinking" and an "end to binge drinking". Of course mix that with a large groups of travelling men (and the odd woman) all congregating at fixed times, and you are going to have a problem. It's the drinking and the culture that needs to change.

(see also the almost weekly occurrence of idiots getting plastered at 5am before getting on a plane and then fighting / trying to open the doors mid-air / etc)

 

[Iskra]

The number has already been replied to by others, but I'd also question what a "football related arrest" is defined as, and ask is it as wide as the criteria often used for a football banning order (which in the past has included totally unrelated incident in other cities hours after a match).

Let’s also not forget that there are a number of activities that are criminal when it’s football, but not when it’s cricket for example, such as drinking beer on a coach, or entering the stadium drunk, which also skews the statistics.

 

[APT618S]

Back in the past (1970) more damage could occur to the train:
(Note: Silent footage)

 

[Iskra]

As has been said before, the key issue is alcohol. Of course, given the popularity of football, and how it is a team sport unlike horse racing, that means there will be a greater amount of aggro around football than around horse racing.

The two worst train journeys I can recall were one from Chester to Liverpool and another from Manchester to Liverpool. The Chester one, myself wife and kids just went for a day out without realising it was the races. The journey back was horrendous, tanked up yobs screaming banging seats, windows, ceilings. Funnily enough, even though it had nothing to do with a football match, pretty much the entire journey there was one guy screaming at the top of his lungs over, and over, and over, and over again "de de de de de Lou-is Sua-rez, de de de " (to the tune of Just Can't Get Enough by Depeche Mode). All the banging was threatening and the feeling that if you looked at one of them the wrong way it would be you next.

The Manchester to Liverpool one was the last train back, and had nothing to do with football either. Just drunks. These ones were literally standing on the tables jumping up and down (oh how I wished for an emergency stop to knock them all over!). Screaming to women "get you t**s out for the lads". These ones kept coming to us saying "come and join the party" and again its just intimidating.

In both cases, I remember mates of the protagonists saying things along the lines of "we're just having a laugh, it's banter innit kidda" etc.

This country has had a problem with alcohol consumption for as long as I can remember. Tony Blair thought he'd turn us into some stereotypical sophisticated European style cafe / wine culture - that was one of the main arguments for the Licensing Act 2002, which was (according to media at the time) going to bring in "24 hour drinking" and an "end to binge drinking". Of course mix that with a large groups of travelling men (and the odd woman) all congregating at fixed times, and you are going to have a problem. It's the drinking and the culture that needs to change.

(see also the almost weekly occurrence of idiots getting plastered at 5am before getting on a plane and then fighting / trying to open the doors mid-air / etc)

Consistently my worst train journeys are provided by the good population of Barnsley, who escape to Leeds for a day drinking session and then act the fool on the way back. This journey is actually improved by the presence of football fans as it seems to crowd the drunks out and they wind their necks in a bit. I’ve also seen horrendous behaviour on the last Saturday Manchester-Barrow’s when I lived up that way too.

 

[william.martin]

Good luck if you ever get on a pendo at Wolverhampton after wolves have lost a match.

 

[sheff1]

Gov stats on arrests for 21/22 season

There were 2,198 arrests for the first 'proper' season after covid, out of, about 3000 games. So about two thirds.

That is not evidence to support your assertion.
Firstly a "football related arrest", which is what the 2198 figure relates to, does not equate to an arrest at a match; secondly, as others have pointed out, each arrest which is at a match is not going to be always one per specific match.

 

[Facing Back]

That is not evidence to support your assertion.
Firstly a "football related arrest", which is what the 2198 figure relates to, does not equate to an arrest at a match; secondly, as others have pointed out, each arrest which is at a match is not going to be always one per specific match.

What criteria do the police use to flag an arrest as "football related"?

 

[jon0844]

Of course he doesn't, it's tosh. And as someone has already stated, the trend is not to arrest at the games, but to trawl through CCTV and do a dawn raid some weeks later instead.

That seems to me like the police feel outnumbered to the point where they don't want trouble at the ground (or on a train) but if there's an arrest at someone's home later on, there clearly was a crime committed worthy of an arrest, no?

I am not sure it matters when the arrest is made if you're trying to argue that the football fans must be squeaky clean because there are no arrests on trains or football stadiums! It backs up the earlier arguments that the police just don't want to get involved, which makes some people feel uncomfortable and, frankly, should not be tolerated.

Most football fans are no trouble, but once there are trouble makers, BTP should take them off. If they're so outnumbered that they feel too scared, this is a good argument for better funding and staffing levels - which would benefit the whole railway IMO.

 

[stuu]

Football fans are often annoying (I've been to Millwall away, and lived, just), but the absolute worst are racing fans. I used to commute to Bristol, and I dreaded the Cheltenham Festival week. The only time I have ever seen anyone doing lines of cocaine off a table in the middle of a packed carriage at 10am. The behaviour of the majority on those trains was appalling, not the minority

 

[Mikey C]

For those concerned about Footy fans causing trouble: make sure you don't get caught up in my team's travels (Fulham). Those Victoria Sponge cakes can evoke many a strange and rowdy reaction


View attachment 127746

I dunno, I've seen the furious reaction when Fulham fans get served non organic coffee

 

[Facing Back]

I dunno, I've seen the furious reaction when Fulham fans get served non organic coffee

Aged about 14 I was travelling to the grandparents in Jarrow, my first trip alone. A dozen or so slightly piddled Newcastle fans came through the carriage. They were in a conga, on their knees, and singing "Hi Ho, Hi Ho it's off to work we go..." and throwing sweets to the kids as they passed. Such a shame its not the same now.

 

[Chucky]

If I'm travelling at the weekend I always check the fixture list and avoid trains that fans of certain teams are likely to be traveling on. If I was planning to travel between south Wales and London on a Saturday, the very first thing I would do would be to check the fixtures. Seeing the word Millwall I would choose my train very carefully. A simple way around it is to travel during the match or a good few hours after when most of them have already left.

I have been caught out a few times with rugby fans though - on one occasion a large group of male rugby fans getting their genitals out and waving them around at everyone in the carriage ("it's just banter" they said when a woman complained about a man's bits being placed on the table in front of her), also very unpleasant and threatening horse racing people openly snorting cocaine, and the ubiquitous raucous stag and hen do's.

None of these groups are pleasant but generally football fans and racegoers are pretty easy to avoid if you check the fixtures before traveling. I started checking England rugby fixtures too after the "banter" incident, but as the train it happened on was leaving London toward the provinces hours after the match rather than directly from Twickenham I couldn't really have predicted running into them. I guess luck plays a part, but generally many of these antisocial groups can be avoided with a bit of forward planning.

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks everyone for your further comments to the this thread. As ‘Chucky’ says above, people have to check for various sporting fixtures - especially if travelling on Saturdays and wishing to avoid obnoxious ‘fans’. In view of the decline in the number of commuters on weekdays, surely it is time to scrap the 9.30am restriction on certain Railcards so that ‘normal’ travellers can set off early on journeys on days when they are not going to encounter yobs? If space permits, the peak time weekday fares should also be reduced or scrapped.

Mention has been made of special trains that would shift fans in the 60's and 70's using Mk1 stock that was no longer in day to day use. Would it not be a good idea to do that now being as we have Mk4 coaches being sent for scrap when they could surely be stored and brought out to run specials? I see that TfW have got Mk4’s running with Class 67’s and DVT’s once used on electric powered trains. Would it not be prudent for TfW, for example, to purchase extra Mk4 coaches for use during special events/matches and therefore retain space on scheduled trains for ‘normal passengers'?

Can other parts of the country do something similar and use locomotives & drivers normally used for freight trains to haul Mk4’s?

 

[zwk500]

Would it not be prudent for TfW, for example, to purchase extra Mk4 coaches for use during special events/matches and therefore retain space on scheduled trains for ‘normal passengers'?

Can other parts of the country do something similar and use locomotives & drivers normally used for freight trains to haul Mk4’s?

What do these coaches do while not being used for football matches? Modern coaches have complex electronics and equipment that needs to be used regularly to keep in good order. Sitting in a siding 5/6 days a week won't do the stock any good. You also need capacity to run these trains, which until COVID was hard to get.

 

[FenMan]

Mention has been made of special trains that would shift fans in the 60's and 70's using Mk1 stock that was no longer in day to day use. Would it not be a good idea to do that now being as we have Mk4 coaches being sent for scrap when they could surely be stored and brought out to run specials? I see that TfW have got Mk4’s running with Class 67’s and DVT’s once used on electric powered trains. Would it not be prudent for TfW, for example, to purchase extra Mk4 coaches for use during special events/matches and therefore retain space on scheduled trains for ‘normal passengers'?

Can other parts of the country do something similar and use locomotives & drivers normally used for freight trains to haul Mk4’s?

I hear a fair number of Class 769s will be available very shortly.

 

[yorksrob]

As has been said before, the key issue is alcohol. Of course, given the popularity of football, and how it is a team sport unlike horse racing, that means there will be a greater amount of aggro around football than around horse racing.

The two worst train journeys I can recall were one from Chester to Liverpool and another from Manchester to Liverpool. The Chester one, myself wife and kids just went for a day out without realising it was the races. The journey back was horrendous, tanked up yobs screaming banging seats, windows, ceilings. Funnily enough, even though it had nothing to do with a football match, pretty much the entire journey there was one guy screaming at the top of his lungs over, and over, and over, and over again "de de de de de Lou-is Sua-rez, de de de " (to the tune of Just Can't Get Enough by Depeche Mode). All the banging was threatening and the feeling that if you looked at one of them the wrong way it would be you next.

The Manchester to Liverpool one was the last train back, and had nothing to do with football either. Just drunks. These ones were literally standing on the tables jumping up and down (oh how I wished for an emergency stop to knock them all over!). Screaming to women "get you t**s out for the lads". These ones kept coming to us saying "come and join the party" and again its just intimidating.

In both cases, I remember mates of the protagonists saying things along the lines of "we're just having a laugh, it's banter innit kidda" etc.

This country has had a problem with alcohol consumption for as long as I can remember. Tony Blair thought he'd turn us into some stereotypical sophisticated European style cafe / wine culture - that was one of the main arguments for the Licensing Act 2002, which was (according to media at the time) going to bring in "24 hour drinking" and an "end to binge drinking". Of course mix that with a large groups of travelling men (and the odd woman) all congregating at fixed times, and you are going to have a problem. It's the drinking and the culture that needs to change.

(see also the almost weekly occurrence of idiots getting plastered at 5am before getting on a plane and then fighting / trying to open the doors mid-air / etc)

Just to point out, "24 hour drinking" was always a myth. Try finding a pub that's open at 2 am.

Many thanks everyone for your further comments to the this thread. As ‘Chucky’ says above, people have to check for various sporting fixtures - especially if travelling on Saturdays and wishing to avoid obnoxious ‘fans’. In view of the decline in the number of commuters on weekdays, surely it is time to scrap the 9.30am restriction on certain Railcards so that ‘normal’ travellers can set off early on journeys on days when they are not going to encounter yobs? If space permits, the peak time weekday fares should also be reduced or scrapped.

Mention has been made of special trains that would shift fans in the 60's and 70's using Mk1 stock that was no longer in day to day use. Would it not be a good idea to do that now being as we have Mk4 coaches being sent for scrap when they could surely be stored and brought out to run specials? I see that TfW have got Mk4’s running with Class 67’s and DVT’s once used on electric powered trains. Would it not be prudent for TfW, for example, to purchase extra Mk4 coaches for use during special events/matches and therefore retain space on scheduled trains for ‘normal passengers'?

Can other parts of the country do something similar and use locomotives & drivers normally used for freight trains to haul Mk4’s?

If there's the money to maintain the mk4 sets (which there needs to be) we need them on the ECML.

 

[DarloRich]

‘normal passengers'?

Am I not a normal passenger? If my money is good enough for a London season ticket Monday to Friday it is good enough to get me to and from the match on a Saturday. If you wont take me on a Saturday why should I pay you on a Monday?

Man, this board.............................

( you are advocating stopping people you don't like the look of travelling. That cant be right! No problem saying anyone who has a banning order is unable to use public transport at the time of a match. You want EVERYONE, including me and my family, associated with football being banned from public transport)

 

[156421]

Unfortunately football has always attracted the lower of the lower classes.

absolutely deplorable comment

 

[Stampy]

I have been caught out a few times with rugby fans though - on one occasion a large group of male rugby fans getting their genitals out and waving them around at everyone in the carriage ("it's just banter" they said when a woman complained about a man's bits being placed on the table in front of her), also very unpleasant and threatening horse racing people openly snorting cocaine.....

I've quoted the above post, as it reminded me of an incident that I saw on my way back from a football game at Hartlepool...


Caught a train back into York, only to be met at York station by a bunch of "hooray Henry's and Henryetta's" in blazers, top hats, dresses and fancy hats - from a race day at York races...

They were barging their way to the front of every queue for food or drink - yelling "Do you know who I am???, what what"

They were doing the same when the trains came into the platform - barging their way onto the train and turfing people out of seats - cracking open the champers and caviar...

I nipped to the toilet between Grantham and Peterborough, and there was white powder all around the sink...

 

[AlterEgo]

Football and Horse Racing Fans can be bad but some of the lurid stuff on here is detached from reality!

Most football fans behave well. It’s the minority who don’t who cause the issues and the solution is actually to have harsher enforcement against the people causing the problem. Our society is very “hands off” when it comes to actually punishing people who act like idiots.

 

[Dai Corner]

Perhaps the well-behaved fans could bolster the reputation of the whole football community by discouraging the kind of behaviour described in the article and this thread?

 

[londonbridge]

I'm fed up of the fun police/sensationalist press depicting all football supporters as yobs. Some football fans are badly behaved, yes, but the vast, vast majority are not the violent thugs depicted in press coverage (much of which is distinctly classist; note the far more critical coverage of football disorder compared to that at other sports).
There's also an inconsistency from some posters over public transport. Public transport is good because it shifts a lot of people from place to place and provides a public service for all. The counterpoint to this is that public transport also involves travelling with others, who, shock horror, may be noisy. Offensive chants are obviously repellent - indeed, the football authorities are increasingly cracking down on particularly inappropriate songs - but not every chant is offensive, in much the same way that not every football fan is not violent, and singing a song on a train neither makes you offensive nor violent. The suggestion upthread that football fans should be banned from trains is total nonsense - trains are not a personal haven, they are public transport for the good of the public (and I'd wager a good portion of trains on a Saturday are more than half filled with football fans).

Singing “F off Adam Johnson, going down with *******, he’s a paedophile, he’s a paedophile”, when there were at least two families with young kids in the carriage doesn’t make you offensive then? That’s what I and my mate had to put up with from some fans who got on and saw us when we were travelling to a Sunderland game, and this first thing around 9:15. Forget whose “fans” they were, of course guard/train manager was nowhere to be found but miraculously reappeared once they got off.

Anyway, re Millwall, I was on the way back from Sunderland-Swansea couple of weeks ago, train manager announced BTP would be boarding at Eaglescliffe and escorting the train to London as they were expecting football fans to join there (considering I was wearing my top and scarf when she’d been through and checked my ticket I don’t know what she thought I was then), looked it up, it was Millwall who’d been playing at Middlesbrough, they all piled on, can’t speak for other carriages but most of those who got in my carriage were fine, there was some minor swearing at first but it quietened down, ended up having a fairly pleasant conversation with two lads sat near me, didn’t really see any incidents apart from BTP arguing with someone on the platform who didn’t want to give his details when we all piled off at Kings X

 

[yorksrob]

I've quoted the above post, as it reminded me of an incident that I saw on my way back from a football game at Hartlepool...


Caught a train back into York, only to be met at York station by a bunch of "hooray Henry's and Henryetta's" in blazers, top hats, dresses and fancy hats - from a race day at York races...

They were barging their way to the front of every queue for food or drink - yelling "Do you know who I am???, what what"

They were doing the same when the trains came into the platform - barging their way onto the train and turfing people out of seats - cracking open the champers and caviar...

I nipped to the toilet between Grantham and Peterborough, and there was white powder all around the sink...

Ajax ?

 

[DarloRich]

Perhaps the well-behaved fans could bolster the reputation of the whole football community by discouraging the kind of behaviour described in the article and this thread?

Anyone would think we didn't do that already...................... ( but you don't want to hear that)

I am not going to have a go at blokes for chanting TOON ARMY ( or such) on a train. I will and have had a go at them about stuff that is overly rude, racist or out of order. The problem is i don't think a bit of swearing is that out of order. Posters here do. I also acknowledge that not everyone is comfortable challenging people.

For transparency: I have drunk on a train going to match and sung the odd song after a good win. I might even have banged on the window in time with the song. Perhaps I should be birched. best ban me from the train.

Most football fans behave well. It’s the minority who don’t who cause the issues and the solution is actually to have harsher enforcement against the people causing the problem. Our society is very “hands off” when it comes to actually punishing people who act like idiots.

is the correct answer.

 

[RailWonderer]

I was on this service. They also pulled the alarm outside Acton but luckily we got going again in 15 mins. I was sat in first class (which is why I still haven't burst an ear drum) and they are notorious for all that. A guy in my carriage was saying the Huddersfield match was way worse and even at Tottneham they were throwing stones and bottles at the train. As expected. Arrests made after, even on the train and the platform etc.

 

[Howardh]

Just for the sake of balance, it's nice when football fans get a report like this!

https://twitter.com/IrlamFC/status/1618164475391270914

We would like to thank all the visiting supporters and staff
@OfficialBuryAFC
who attended the
@RG3Digital
Stadium last night. A large traveling support who were among the friendliest and sporting supporters we have come across.A credit to your Club.