Football ‘fans’ Trash Cardiff to London Train.

[duncanp]

For transparency: I have drunk on a train going to match and sung the odd song after a good win. I might even have banged on the window in time with the song. Perhaps I should be birched. bets ban me from the train.

I don't think it is acceptable to bang on the window of a train in time to a song.

Whilst you may not see anything wrong with this, you should understand that it can be intimidating and threatening to other people on the train.

Section 6.2 of the railway byelaws, which you agree to abide by when buying a ticket, state:-

• No person shall behave in a disorderly, indecent or offensive manner on the railway

I think it is a bit of a stretch to claim that banging on the window of a train does not constitute disorderly conduct.

 

[Iskra]

I was on this service. They also pulled the alarm outside Acton but luckily we got going again in 15 mins. I was sat in first class (which is why I still haven't burst an ear drum) and they are notorious for all that. A guy in my carriage was saying the Huddersfield match was way worse and even at Tottneham they were throwing stones and bottles at the train. As expected. Arrests made after, even on the train and the platform etc.

Perhaps it's time to enforce 'dry' coaches only to football games for Millwall? My club put a number of measures in place to deal with poor behaviour from a minority of the fanbase some years ago, and as much as I don't like those measures, it worked. I remember when I went to Cardiff away about 15 years ago ticket numbers were severely restricted, it was club members/ST holders only and you could only travel by car or coach and had to collect your ticket from the police at a motorway service station outside Cardiff and be escorted in by police. This sort of thing works, to the point that a couple of weeks ago they let us take 9000 fans to Cardiff with no restrictions at all. Millwall FC need to play a role in sorting this out too, rather than being in denial, they've somehow avoided the same scrutiny that my club got despite having an arguably worse reputation.

 

[zwk500]

Just for the sake of balance, it's nice when football fans get a report like this!

https://twitter.com/IrlamFC/status/1618164475391270914

Positive reinforcement is definitely needed far more than more punitive actions.

 

[Richardr]

Whilst understanding 100% why local law enforcement will want the drunken fans off of their patch, do not most long distance trains have CCTV, and so complaints could be investigated?

 

[Dai Corner]

For transparency: I have drunk on a train going to match and sung the odd song after a good win. I might even have banged on the window in time with the song. Perhaps I should be birched. best ban me from the train.

After a few pints/cans my judgement of what is acceptable behaviour tends to relax.

I don't think it is acceptable to bang on the window of a train in time to a song.

Whilst you may not see anything wrong with this, you should understand that it can be intimidating and threatening to other people on the train.

Quite. That's why I do my drinking in the pub where an adult atmosphere is expected and shouting, swearing, singing, making remarks or telling jokes that might be offensive to the wrong audience is tolerated. I refrain from doing so when taking public transport home.

 

[Beebman]

If I'm travelling at the weekend I always check the fixture list and avoid trains that fans of certain teams are likely to be traveling on.

I've been doing that for the past 41 years since I was travelling from Wolverhampton to Reading when hordes of Spurs fan travelling back from an FA Cup semi final at Villa Park boarded the train at New Street and caused a variety of problems including pulling the alarm near Hampton-in-Arden. I had to move down the train and stand in a vestibule to get away from them. (They mostly piled off at Oxford, are there usually many Spurs fans living there?)

I've managed to successfully avoid football fans on trains ever since then, although one exception happened some years ago in Germany when loads of Schalke fans boarded a train I was on at Gelsenkirchen but although they were very noisy they were otherwise well behaved and the atmosphere didn't feel threatening.

 

[Jim the Jim]

Nobody should be singing on a train, for any reason. Whether it's intimidating or not, it's extremely annoying for other passengers.

 

[Iskra]

Nobody should be singing on a train, for any reason. Whether it's intimidating or not, it's extremely annoying for other passengers.

While I agree, it is unrealistic to expect that to be enforced and it’s no different to people watching videos or playing music without headphones which seems to be increasingly common and isn’t policed. Even staff don’t seem to say anything about this kind of behaviour anymore.

 

[duncanp]

After a few pints/cans my judgement of what is acceptable behaviour tends to relax.

Everyone's judgement of what behaviour is acceptable is changed after consuming alcohol, myself included.

However, the consumption of alcohol does not magically turn unacceptable behaviour into acceptable behaviour, and even in the pub (well my local at least) there is a limit to the amount of singing/swearing/rude jokes that will be tolerated, especially if someone makes a complaint to the landlord.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't think it is acceptable to bang on the window of a train in time to a song.

Whilst you may not see anything wrong with this, you should understand that it can be intimidating and threatening to other people on the train.

Section 6.2 of the railway byelaws, which you agree to abide by when buying a ticket, state:-

I think it is a bit of a stretch to claim that banging on the window of a train does not constitute disorderly conduct.

Best sue me then. it is fleeting and momentary and of no consequence. If it were for an entire 4 hour journey i would agree. it isn't.

may I check if stamping the floor with my foot or tapping the table like I am playing the drums in time to a song on my phone is ok?

After a few pints/cans my judgement of what is acceptable behaviour tends to relax.

Quite. That's why I do my drinking in the pub where an adult atmosphere is expected and shouting, swearing, singing, making remarks or telling jokes that might be offensive to the wrong audience is tolerated. I refrain from doing so when taking public transport home.

Unlike you and other posters I am not perfect. Having a can or 2 on a train is not a crime. ( and I mean a can or two not 20!)

Nobody should be singing on a train, for any reason. Whether it's intimidating or not, it's extremely annoying for other passengers.

No one should be watching films or listening to music on the train without headphones. it is extremely annoying for other passengers.

you should understand that it can be intimidating and threatening to other people on the train.

it absolutely isn't that but the issue is posters here have no idea about real life and what a threatening situation really is.

The following is NOT threatening in any way: TOON ARMY (thud thud) TOON ARMY (thud thud) etc etc.

( and I am not a Newcastle fan but most people will know Newcastle are the toon army)

 

[Dai Corner]

However, the consumption of alcohol does not magically turn unacceptable behaviour into acceptable behaviour, and even in the pub (well my local at least) there is a limit to the amount of singing/swearing/rude jokes that will be tolerated, especially if someone makes a complaint to the landlord.

Fortunately my city has a wide choice of venues. I pick the appropriate one for the sort of experience I want on that particular day.

Unlike you and other posters I am not perfect. Having a can or 2 on a train is not a crime.

I didn't say it was. I said that it tends to increase my tolerance of antisocial behaviour, whether that's inappropriate language, loud singing or chanting, banging on the windows or playing music without headphones.

 

[DarloRich]

I said that it tends to increase my tolerance of antisocial behaviour, whether that's inappropriate language, loud singing or chanting, banging on the windows or playing music without headphones.

ok - I am not sure I agree. Surely a couple of pints is MORE likely to lead to a Dutch courage inspired intervention in relation to poor behaviour.

 

[Iskra]

ok - I am not sure I agree. Surely a couple of pints is MORE likely to lead to a Dutch courage inspired intervention in relation to poor behaviour.

I think different people go in different directions, some mellow, some harshen up and it probably varies depending on how much they've drunk.

One recurring issue, is that trains aren't long/frequent enough to allow people to spread out or force people to be in uncomfortably close proximity to each other. Overcrowding is pretty much standard on a weekend on the UK rail network. If that were addressed with a proper timetable that reflected societies travel needs, I think there would be a lot less issues and passengers would be less stressed-out.

 

[Dai Corner]

ok - I am not sure I agree. Surely a couple of pints is MORE likely to lead to a Dutch courage inspired intervention in relation to poor behaviour.

If a moderately intoxicated football fan, racegoer or stag/hen night attendee is moved to tell his/her drunk fellow passengers to 'tone it down a bit guys' for the sake of their collective reputation that's great.

 

[yorksrob]

One recurring issue, is that trains aren't long/frequent enough to allow people to spread out or force people to be in uncomfortably close proximity to each other. Overcrowding is pretty much standard on a weekend on the UK rail network. If that were addressed with a proper timetable that reflected societies travel needs, I think there would be a lot less issues and passengers would be less stressed-out.

Unfortunately the fashion seems to be to scrap half of your rolling stock now, then worry about capacity later !

 

[43066]

The problems are not unique to football either here or in other countries. For example some Ultra movements in European countries are often tied into political movements, sometimes even organised crime. As for segregation, yes football has more and most of that was down to the hooliganism during the 80s and subsequent legislation. However most trouble with hooligans is not even at or around grounds.

So in other words there clearly are long standing historical issues, hence why legislation was required in the first place I accept that actual hooliganism isn’t such an issue these days, but there does appear to be something about football in particular. Whether the trouble is at the grounds or not has little to do with it - frankly if it was just at the grounds it wouldn’t affect the rest of us!

The simple fact is that football is way more popular than any other sport in many countries. And here in the UK we have 92 professional clubs alone, many of whom see hundreds if not thousands of fans travelling to away games every other Saturday for much of the year. And the very nature of the game means that they will all be travelling more or less at the same time in the same direction. Chuck in lots of people chucking beer down their throats and this therefore magnifies the wider socialital problems. Don't kid yourself for a second here, go out around any number of towns and cities at the weekend and you will see the same behaviours, just spread out over wider areas and time spans. And generally speaking most who hit the town at weekends don't end up on trains when they are trollied and on their way home.

In the London area there are many, many drunks heading home on Friday and Saturday nights (I’ve also had years of working those trains and still travel on them regularly, usually stone cold sober on my way home from work). The general behaviour is not the same league in terms of the numbers causing it or the severity. The difference with football fans (thinking of one recent example) is that they were already leathered when they boarded a train in London 0800(!) and caused significant damage, several assaults also happened on trains and at stations that day by that team’a fans.

Non football travellers were actually getting off trains and waiting for the next train to get away from it. This is part of the problem - the people who will be exposed to this behaviour from football fans eg young families won’t be expecting it on a train in the morning, so saying “you’ll see similar behaviour late at night in a town centre” will be of little comfort.

There’s very clearly an element of wanting to live up to a reputation and playing up to the group. A pack mentality kicks in and it’s a completely different dynamic to small groups of mates or individuals heading home after a few shandies, it’s more like the dynamic of a stag do - and yes those are awful too but far, far fewer of them.

Maybe because as people who actually go to games home and away we have a better insight? Many fans can spot troublemakers from a mile away, be it on the way to a game or just out on a night out. Why? Because they are often the same people causing trouble.

To be fair you don’t have a better insight than railway staff on the issues they cause on the railway network! I have no interest whatsoever in football and have never been to a match, so can only go on what I’ve seen. And unfortunately it isn’t a pretty picture. The behaviour is of a different league to the worst excesses of those on a normal night out - and that’s based on years of experience of witnessing the behaviour of various groups of travellers. Well all know other groups can be bad, but not as many of them and they don’t behave appallingly so consistently.

All anyone has said on the this thread is that it’s known a problem with football fans specifically, to the point where staff will often dread match days more than they dread working “normal” Friday/Saturday night late shifts. Whether people accept are willing to accept that or not won’t change it.

Unlike you and other posters I am not perfect. Having a can or 2 on a train is not a crime. ( and I mean a can or two not 20!)

No it isn’t. But urinating/defacating on the floor, pulling chairs apart and assaulting people is. Years ago now but I remember my then girlfriend coming home in tears having been racially abused by (yet again) Millwall fans passing through London Bridge. Dreadful behaviour.

 

[zwk500]

Unfortunately the fashion seems to be to scrap half of your rolling stock now, then worry about capacity later !

The attitude of the treasury to crystal balls strikes again...

 

[yorksrob]

The attitude of the treasury to crystal balls strikes again...

Not even crystal balls if the comments about crowding on Southern suburban services are anything to go by.

 

[zwk500]

Not even crystal balls if the comments about crowding on Southern suburban services are anything to go by.

That's just the attitude of the Government towards South London

 

[duncanp]

I do wonder whether the British Transport Police or Rail Staff would consider banging on the window of a train "...momentary and of no consequence...", as some people on here seem to think.

On second thoughts, I have to make a journey from Birmingham to Nuneaton later today.

I shall consume a few pints in the Wetherspoons at the station beforehand.

As soon as the train leaves New Street, I shall start banging loudly on the window, and lets see whether I am allowed to remain on the train after Water Orton.

 

[yorksrob]

That's just the attitude of the Government towards South London

Well, lets hope it stays restricted to South London, but I somehow doubt it !

 

[zwk500]

I do wonder whether the British Transport Police or Rail Staff would consider banging on the window of a train "...momentary and of no consequence...", as some people on here seem to think.

Once or twice would be ignored. 5 minutes of incessant thumping less so.

 

[DarloRich]

But urinating/defacating on the floor, pulling chairs apart and assaulting people is.

Agreed - I have never done any of those things and neither have people i travel with. I have seen that on a friday night out of London more than once.

I do wonder whether the British Transport Police or Rail Staff would consider banging on the window of a train "...momentary and of no consequence...", as some people on here seem to think.

Quote my post if you have something to say about it. I suspect that for a momentary occurrence they wouldn't care. If you did it the whole journey, as I said in my post, they would do something about it.

Once or twice would be ignored. 5 minutes of incessant thumping less so.

Exactly - and that is my point.

 

[43066]

Agreed - I have never done any of those things and neither have people i travel with. I have seen that on a friday night out of London more than once.

As have I. But I reckon I’ve seen enough damage caused to lock carriages out of use ten times, eight of those would be football related.

It’s generally middle aged and upwards men who seem the worst culprits too!

 

[DarloRich]

As have I. But I reckon I’ve seen enough damage caused to lock carriages out of use ten times, eight of those would be football related.

It’s generally middle aged and upwards men who seem the worst culprits too!

ok - I bow to your knowledge. I simply say I don't behave like that and wouldn't tolerate it from anyone I encounter. I would ( and have) challenged people ( both football and no football related) and contacted the police about things I am unhappy about to the point of standing with a policeman and pointing out the culprit then giving a statement.

I try to do my best but, unlike almost every other poster here, I am not perfect.

 

[Starmill]

Many people I know take a very close interest in the football, for a variety of different reasons, and yet not a one of them has ever acted in an intimidating way about it, including after rather a lot to drink of an evening watching it in the pub.

I wonder if the people responsible for this kind of extreme behaviour or property damage actually even attended the match?

 

[43066]

ok - I bow to your knowledge. I simply say I don't behave like that and wouldn't tolerate it from anyone I encounter. I would ( and have) challenged people ( both football and no football related) and contacted the police about things I am unhappy about to the point of standing with a policeman and pointing out the culprit then giving a statement.

I try to do my best but, unlike almost every other poster here, I am not perfect.

Good for you for doing so and I completely agree it isn’t all fans - but there are enough who do this kind of thing for it to be noticeable. As I say I genuinely don’t think that article is sensationalised based on my experience of Millwall going to Sheffield last year.

It isn’t only football fans. Some railway enthusiasts can behave pretty badly as anyone who has done a circle line pub crawl or certain rail tours can attest.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Ive been an away fan and i remember a few years ago travelling to Burnley on a 150 i think. There were a bunch of us standing up and singing... no aggressive or insulting songs just youre average songs. I noticed how frightenened a few little old ladies were who were also on the train, and i can understand that. One brave soul told us all to shut up lol

" a bunch of us standing up and singing". Seems bad inconsiderate behaviour that is likely to intimidate vulnerable and even robust people. "one brave soul". ie someone who risked abuse or worse from a rowdy group. Not an agreeable experience for passengers not in your group.

 

[Runningaround]

I think that comment is in poor taste, but it’s also factually incorrect- it was a ‘gentleman’s game,’ in the late 1800’s and I’d argue that the vast majority of fans don’t fit into your description either.

Its made by those who are jealous and cannot earn the money or adulation that the ''lower class'' footballer can. What really gets their backs up is, is now that Working Class tradesmen are now earning enough to travel and attend Horse Racing.

Gov stats on arrests for 21/22 season

There were 2,198 arrests for the first 'proper' season after covid, out of, about 3000 games. So about two thirds. The stats on my region are worse, but thats likely because we see certain teams more than others, so it will vary a bit over the country.

As I said, and I think to be fair it is easy to overlook, certainly something that I'm guilty of sometimes, it isn't all teams, but it is a lot. Ignoring the problem and sticking our head in the sand is getting us no where. The reality is you just don't see these issues with other sports. My area is a heavy rugby kinda place, and there great. I enjoy a train full of rugby fans, there a good laugh, they certainly don't start ruining everyone else's journey, and usually any problems are sorted by other fans before I even hear about them.

I'd love if there was a shift in football to the, almost, self policing you see in some sport fans groups. Especially because for the other fans this has got to be something they find embarrassing? It's not exactly a reputation people should be proud of.

Considering around a 30,000,000 attend each season in the top four divisions that's pretty good. I bet there are more arrests per train passenger.

I do wonder whether the British Transport Police or Rail Staff would consider banging on the window of a train "...momentary and of no consequence...", as some people on here seem to think.

On second thoughts, I have to make a journey from Birmingham to Nuneaton later today.

I shall consume a few pints in the Wetherspoons at the station beforehand.

As soon as the train leaves New Street, I shall start banging loudly on the window, and lets see whether I am allowed to remain on the train after Water Orton.

Id rather be on a train full of Millwall fans than a Wetherspoons.

 

[Bantamzen]

So in other words there clearly are long standing historical issues, hence why legislation was required in the first place I accept that actual hooliganism isn’t such an issue these days, but there does appear to be something about football in particular. Whether the trouble is at the grounds or not has little to do with it - frankly if it was just at the grounds it wouldn’t affect the rest of us!

Good grief, you know if you ever get tired of working in the rail industry, I'm sure the Daily Mail would snap you as a opinion columnist in a moment....

There is nothing about football that is exceptional. The people that kick off at grounds or on their way to / from ars just as likely to kick off down their local or at the kebab shop. Period. End of.

In the London area there are many, many drunks heading home on Friday and Saturday nights (I’ve also had years of working those trains and still travel on them regularly, usually stone cold sober on my way home from work). The general behaviour is not the same league in terms of the numbers causing it or the severity. The difference with football fans (thinking of one recent example) is that they were already leathered when they boarded a train in London 0800(!) and caused significant damage, several assaults also happened on trains and at stations that day by that team’a fans.

Non football travellers were actually getting off trains and waiting for the next train to get away from it. This is part of the problem - the people who will be exposed to this behaviour from football fans eg young families won’t be expecting it on a train in the morning, so saying “you’ll see similar behaviour late at night in a town centre” will be of little comfort.

There’s very clearly an element of wanting to live up to a reputation and playing up to the group. A pack mentality kicks in and it’s a completely different dynamic to small groups of mates or individuals heading home after a few shandies, it’s more like the dynamic of a stag do - and yes those are awful too but far, far fewer of them.

Again, that happens outside of football. People naturally associate with like minded people, and violent people tend to folk. Football is one place they appear, but is certainly not the only place.

To be fair you don’t have a better insight than railway staff on the issues they cause on the railway network! I have no interest whatsoever in football and have never been to a match, so can only go on what I’ve seen. And unfortunately it isn’t a pretty picture. The behaviour is of a different league to the worst excesses of those on a normal night out - and that’s based on years of experience of witnessing the behaviour of various groups of travellers. Well all know other groups can be bad, but not as many of them and they don’t behave appallingly so consistently.

Look in 2001 I live right in the epicentre of the Bradford Riots. What I saw there would make most people run to the hills. And even though thankfully it hasn't happened here again, you don't have to look far to find extremely violent people causing serious problems without a football game in sight. This is why I tell you that violence seen around football is not because of football, but because of much wider problems in society.

All anyone has said on the this thread is that it’s known a problem with football fans specifically, to the point where staff will often dread match days more than they dread working “normal” Friday/Saturday night late shifts. Whether people accept are willing to accept that or not won’t change it.

<incorrect answer buzzer>

No it isn’t. But urinating/defacating on the floor, pulling chairs apart and assaulting people is. Years ago now but I remember my then girlfriend coming home in tears having been racially abused by (yet again) Millwall fans passing through London Bridge. Dreadful behaviour.

It is indeed dreadful, but was it because they were Millwall fans, or because they were racist bigots that happened to be Millwall fans? The Bradford riots I mentioned started because of growing racial tensions between some meat heads in a certain pub in the area and the local Muslim youths. That the pub was predominantly Leeds Utd didn't lead people here to condemn Leeds or football. People here recognised that racism is racism, and is not exclusive to one group of people or another.