Football

[SS4]

Evo Stik First Division North

Hyde United 2...Glossop North End 0

A relief for Hyde to actually play a match, after the previous two matches in the holiday period were cancelled, meaning that a total of five matches will now have to be arranged. Hyde scored in each half against a good mid-table side and they are in fourth place, with games in hand over two sides above them. They have achieved 42 points from 19 matches played.

I think you've made a typo there, you've put Hyde as having won

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think you've made a typo there, you've put Hyde as having won

Now then, it takes sides of the calibre of Milton Keynes Dons to put us in our place these days...

 

[DarloRich]

Evo Stik First Division North

Hyde United 2...Glossop North End 0

A relief for Hyde to actually play a match, after the previous two matches in the holiday period were cancelled, meaning that a total of five matches will now have to be arranged. Hyde scored in each half against a good mid-table side and they are in fourth place, with games in hand over two sides above them. They have achieved 42 points from 19 matches played.

Darlo had a similar problem during one of our recent seasons. We ended up playing Saturday>Tuesday>Thursday>Saturday for quite some time.

We may well be in the same division next season. We are 18th, 2 points above the relegation zone and playing poorly. Individual errors are coasting us.

 

[AlterEgo]

I watched a bizarre game on Saturday.

MK Dons 1-0 Peterborough United.

MK Dons, avoiding relegation had a man sent off after 9 minutes for a professional foul, which from my vantage point directly behind the goal was a dive. Dons then scored with 10 men against playoff hopefuls Peterborough.

On 35 minutes, Dons’ centre forward was sent off for a high boot. This was about 30 yards from goal, and no contact was made. This is my least favourite rule in all of football, the idea that someone should be dismissed and take no further part because of a high foot.

Red cards in my view are the ultimate sanction. To dismiss someone from the field, have them take no further part, and severely hamper their own side’s chances, should be reserved for very serious offences, especially cynical ones. Having played the game to semi-professional level I’ve always felt that a high boot was an occupational hazard rather than anything else. It should be a yellow card. Nearly all high boots are simply players trying to win the ball honestly, albeit sometimes in an ill-advised manger. Had the Dons’ forward won the ball on Saturday he’d have been in with a good shooting chance. Sadio Mane was sent off against Manchester City last year for the offence of trying to score a goal. The double standards are pretty gross when it comes to high feet, too. Watch how many overhead kicks are attempted in the box, often with players about, and I’m yet to see anyone sent off, even where a defender has put his head into the mix.

Anyway, rant over. So the Dons played with 9 men for over 65 minutes against a much better team. It was just defence against attack. Boot the ball clear and wait for the next attack. I think Dons must have made 60 clearances in the second half. Yet Peterborough didn’t score. At one point, Dons had a free kick 25 yards out from the Peterborough goal and only a single player went to take it, there was no wall, and the ball was passed backwards. All the normal laws of how a football game should flow were suspended. It was simply bizarre. A ruined spectacle.

Yet somehow the Dons hung on for three points. It’s one of the best defensive performances I’ve ever seen, with every player running themselves into the ground with effort. It’s definitely a match I won’t forget in a while.

 

[DarloRich]

I wont complain if a Dongs player is sent off. The whole club should be sent off.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I wont complain if a Dongs player is sent off. The whole club should be sent off.

Quite... the abovementioned fixture was a "can't they both lose?" situation for me due to past encounters with Peterborough and the conduct of one of their "celebrity" supporters who works for a nationwide sports radio broadcaster...

 

[roversfan2001]

I wont complain if a Dongs player is sent off. The whole club should be sent off.

...sent off back down the M1 to London, where the club belongs

 

[61653 HTAFC]

...sent off back down the M1 to London, where the club belongs

Or alternatively, sent off back down the pyramid to where they should have started from in the first place. I don't begrudge the people of MK their club, they should just have to start from the same place as any other new entrant.

Oh, and stop calling themselves "Dons". The Open University being based in MK has nothing to do with the club and everyone knows it... including Pete Winkleman.

 

[Butts]

Get gone Bruce you dinosaur

Villa hit 5 against Bristol City !!!! - perhaps that will please you and SS4

 

[DarloRich]

Or alternatively, sent off back down the pyramid to where they should have started from in the first place. I don't begrudge the people of MK their club, they should just have to start from the same place as any other new entrant.

is the correct answer.

 

[Minilad]

Villa hit 5 against Bristol City !!!! - perhaps that will please you and SS4

Actually it doesn't. It makes me want him gone even more.
The reason being this result shows what is possible when you play players in their natural positions and give them license to attack. This squad is good enough to do that. Bruce has wasted half a season with negative boring "tactics" which has stifled the players he has at his disposal. If we had played every game this season with last nights attitude instead we would be in a much much better position now.

 

[Groningen]

No; Southampton do not need a player like Virgil van Dijk. They can do it on their own!

 

[fowler9]

No; Southampton do not need a player like Virgil van Dijk. They can do it on their own!

Fair play mate. I actually agree despite being a Liverpool fan.

 

[bb21]

Quite... the abovementioned fixture was a "can't they both lose?" situation for me due to past encounters with Peterborough and the conduct of one of their "celebrity" supporters who works for a nationwide sports radio broadcaster...

Cannot agree more on the sentiment. Best outcome would be both ending up with 7 men on the field (minimum for a game not to be called off I believe?) and subsequently being slapped with a massive fine and points deduction.

"You're not posh at all" was what we used to sing when visiting London Road. Saying that, we had some pretty good memories at both grounds in recent years while in the same division so I probably shouldn't complain too much.

Franchise FC should be immediately relegated the same number of divisions they bypassed when they stole Dons' identity. Until that happens, they would always be a cheat imo.

No; Southampton do not need a player like Virgil van Dijk. They can do it on their own!

Southampton have been a selling club in recent memory, and £75m, if invested wisely, is a very good deal. Key obviously is in the underlined sentence.

Starting to hear a few louder than usual groans from Saints-supporting colleagues recently. As someone on our forum put it, there is an outside chance that next year they may have a "proper" south coast derby again. Surely that'll please them?!

Actually it doesn't. It makes me want him gone even more.
The reason being this result shows what is possible when you play players in their natural positions and give them license to attack. This squad is good enough to do that. Bruce has wasted half a season with negative boring "tactics" which has stifled the players he has at his disposal. If we had played every game this season with last nights attitude instead we would be in a much much better position now.

I can't help but feel that switching your allegiance to another club may do your blood pressure a world of wonders.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No; Southampton do not need a player like Virgil van Dijk. They can do it on their own!

Is he the one who painted "The Cracked Vase with the Big Daisies" and "The Fallen Madonna with Big Boobies" that often were referred to in "Allo 'Allo"?

 

[AlterEgo]

...sent off back down the M1 to London, where the club belongs

There’s a lot of nonsense talked about the MK Dons. I’m not really a supporter, but I do go to some games as they’re my local team.

Bizarrely, supporting the local team is absolutely fine everywhere else in the country except for Milton Keynes, where it’s sinful and dirty.

Most people know jack all about the original Wimbledon. The old Wimbledon (which for the record I consider a club entirely dead with no continuity or successor) was a struggling, Mickey Mouse outfit which never had a proper home after Plough Lane was redeveloped. It had always been a club with a precarious future.

The old Wimbledon had poor original support from the local area and claims by some that it was some fixture of the local community are exaggerated. This isn’t to say it wasn’t a good club. It was, but its core appeal in the 1980s and 1990s was actually to (wait for it) people who lived in and around London who supported different teams than Wimbledon. Wimbledon promoted themselves, particularly in the Selhurst Park years, as a cheap, friendly, accessible and family oriented club, drawing on a geographically wide support base. Wimbledon had the cheapest Premier League season tickets and had the highest proportion of season ticket holders who didn’t live in the local postcode area.

Nonetheless, the old Wimbledon saw incredibly poor attendances. All ten of the record low attendances for the Premier League were for Wimbledon home games throughout the mid-1990s, and in a period long before any move was on the table:


Wimbledon v Everton … 3,039 (26 January 1993)

Wimbledon v Oldham … 3,386 (12 December 1992)

Wimbledon v Coventry City … 3,759 (22 August 1992)

Wimbledon v Sheffield United … 3,979 (20 February 1993)

Wimbledon v Southampton … 4,534 (6 March 1993)

Wimbledon v Manchester City … 4,714 (1 September 1992)

Wimbledon v Coventry City … 4,739 (26 December 1993)

Wimbledon v Ipswich Town … 4,954 (18 August 1992)

Wimbledon v Sheff Wed … 5,536 (15 January 1994)

Wimbledon v Sheff Wed … 5,740 (28 November 1992


Wimbledon had no options open to them than to relocate, even considering a merger with QPR, moving to Luton and even Dublin. It was a club without any purpose or future in its own local area.

The purist ideologues here would prefer that Wimbledon, instead of exploring these options, should have just folded up into a singularity and disappeared forever.

The move to Milton Keynes was obviously controversial for reasons I don’t need to explain. There are some who dislike the “Dons” epithet on the MK name, but it serves as a reminder of the club’s origins (the club badge proclaims the founding of MK Dons to be 2004, with no other claim or reference to previous Wimbledon history). Trophies belonging to the old Wimbledon now sit with the London Borough of Merton and not with the other new club, AFC Wimbledon.

There can be many debates had about the rights and wrongs of the MK Dons genesis. I don’t think a similar relocation will happen in the same circumstances again.

However, when considering the actual outcomes of the whole debacle, it’s hard to see much wrong.

Milton Keynes Dons is a middling League One club. It has an excellent ground, first-rate facilities, a genteel and family oriented atmosphere, and some of the best community outreach in the county. The Sports and Education Trust has for years got kids healthy and into football. They even run a walking football course for the over 60s - my mum participated once. The club is non-threatening, there is little trouble at away games, and the club is basically being run as a going concern with fiscal prudence. The arrival of the Club spurred the redevelopment of MK One into a massive retail park, creating about 1000 jobs in the less affluent Bletchley and Fenny Stratford areas of Milton Keynes.

AFC Wimbledon are also a middling League One club. They have their own community outreach, I’m sure they make a solid mark on the local people and while I know less about them I have every faith that they are also a good club worthy of not just their league place but also delivering all the other things football clubs ought to do.

For those who cry foul about football homelessness and the disgrace of (old) Wimbledon’s situation, something to bear in mind:

AFC Wimbledon, who are currently based in Kingston, for some time have ground shared Kingsmeadow Stadium with Kingstonian, AFC having purchased the lease from the local council. However when the money came calling - Chelsea wanting Kingsmeadow for their womens’ team and reserves - AFC promptly sold the lease, which made Kingstonian (who are the local club of Kingston!) homeless! AFC Wimbledon simply sold the ground lease from beneath Kingstonian in order to accommodate their ambitions of being a going concern.

As a result, Kingstonian, the local team of Kingston, London, founded 1885, now play their matches in Leatherhead, Surrey, well outside London. (NB: they retained their league place)

The reason for me including this anecdote isn’t to spit on AFC, an otherwise decent club with whom I have no quarrel. It’s simply to illustrate that running football clubs in the modern era is difficult and people have to make difficult and sometimes controversial decisions. AFC don’t like being reminded of the fact they had to shaft Kingstonian, because it undermines their whole narrative about getting royally dumped on “back in the old Wimbledon days”.

There are still quite a few bitter people in the AFC set up. This is a shame. Life is hard, and if you look around at what both MK and AFC have achieved, I think we could all agree that the outcomes are better than had Wimbledon disappeared into nothing in 2001.

 

[DarloRich]

The following is a very well written post but not one I can agree with.

There’s a lot of nonsense talked about the MK Dons. I’m not really a supporter, but I do go to some games as they’re my local team.

Bizarrely, supporting the local team is absolutely fine everywhere else in the country except for Milton Keynes, where it’s sinful and dirty.

Correct. It is sinful and dirty. The simple fact is that MK Dongs should not exist in the form they do. They stole another football club and that makes a mockery of everything the pyramid structure of English football is meant to represent. Why work hard building yourself up from the Spartan South Midlands league like everyone else? Just steal your way into league one. It spits on everything small clubs stand for and dream about. I know this doesn't really mater to many in the premier league obsessed football world but, trust me, it matters to fans of small clubs.

If my club ( Darlington) wants to get back to our rightful ( we think) position in the football league we have to get promoted many times. We had to build our club up from nothing, with only fans money, after dodgy owners and the FA screwed us. Why bother? Why not just steal another club and rename them taking their position in the league? It is wrong that the Doings were allowed to do this and wrong that the FA lacked the balls to refuse them permission. The existence of the club disgusts me.

I bet I live the closest to the Stadio della Dongs of any poster on this board. I will never give that club a penny of my money and if i could see the ground from my house I would shut the curtains. My Local club is Luton or Northampton. ( actually it Buckingham Town who play about 100 yards form my house but that is a different story!)

Most people know jack all about the original Wimbledon. The old Wimbledon (which for the record I consider a club entirely dead with no continuity or successor) was a struggling, Mickey Mouse outfit which never had a proper home after Plough Lane was redeveloped. It had always been a club with a precarious future.

indeed - but no different to many league clubs.

The old Wimbledon had poor original support from the local area and claims by some that it was some fixture of the local community are exaggerated. This isn’t to say it wasn’t a good club. It was, but its core appeal in the 1980s and 1990s was actually to (wait for it) people who lived in and around London who supported different teams than Wimbledon. Wimbledon promoted themselves, particularly in the Selhurst Park years, as a cheap, friendly, accessible and family oriented club, drawing on a geographically wide support base. Wimbledon had the cheapest Premier League season tickets and had the highest proportion of season ticket holders who didn’t live in the local postcode area.

So? They didn't cheat their way into the league. They worked their way up from non league level to the football league then all the way to the first division in just 4 years. They did things properly. That is the difference. If the Dongs had fought through the non league pyramid and achieved league status and a fantastic ground i would be a fan.

Nonetheless, the old Wimbledon saw incredibly poor attendances. All ten of the record low attendances for the Premier League were for Wimbledon home games throughout the mid-1990s, and in a period long before any move was on the table:

Wimbledon had no options open to them than to relocate, even considering a merger with QPR, moving to Luton and even Dublin. It was a club without any purpose or future in its own local area.

So? Bad attendances don't justify relocating a club to a new town. We don't have franchises we have teams with geographical connections and local roots. They are important to the people who support them, even if it is only a handful.

The purist ideologues here would prefer that Wimbledon, instead of exploring these options, should have just folded up into a singularity and disappeared forever.

Or you restart at the bottom and fight back. We have to do that. Why should a new club like the Dongs get a golden parachute?

The move to Milton Keynes was obviously controversial for reasons I don’t need to explain. There are some who dislike the “Dons” epithet on the MK name, but it serves as a reminder of the club’s origins (the club badge proclaims the founding of MK Dons to be 2004, with no other claim or reference to previous Wimbledon history). Trophies belonging to the old Wimbledon now sit with the London Borough of Merton and not with the other new club, AFC Wimbledon.

There can be many debates had about the rights and wrongs of the MK Dons genesis. I don’t think a similar relocation will happen in the same circumstances again.

Agreed but I bet if enough cash was waved about the FA would look the other way.

However, when considering the actual outcomes of the whole debacle, it’s hard to see much wrong.

other than the fact they haven't earn't that level of football and they mock everything proper clubs stand for and hope to achieve. Thye take a place i nthe football league that rightly belongs to anohter club.

Milton Keynes Dons is a middling League One club. It has an excellent ground, first-rate facilities, a genteel and family oriented atmosphere, and some of the best community outreach in the county. The Sports and Education Trust has for years got kids healthy and into football. They even run a walking football course for the over 60s - my mum participated once. The club is non-threatening, there is little trouble at away games, and the club is basically being run as a going concern with fiscal prudence. The arrival of the Club spurred the redevelopment of MK One into a massive retail park, creating about 1000 jobs in the less affluent Bletchley and Fenny Stratford areas of Milton Keynes.

AFC Wimbledon are also a middling League One club. They have their own community outreach, I’m sure they make a solid mark on the local people and while I know less about them I have every faith that they are also a good club worthy of not just their league place but also delivering all the other things football clubs ought to do.

Now, as much as i detest the Dongs and their very existence I agree they have a great stadium and a superb community presence and outreach ( putting aside the fact the have to do this to build up a fan base) other clubs should copy this. it should be a template insisted upon by the cowardly FA to help use football as a tool for some social support and change. They employ good people in the trust who work hard and want to make a difference.

Turning to the fans: The club is non threatening basically because they are supported by plastic fans who have changed allegiance and don't understand football or what it means to real fans or to be a real fan. How can you when your club is less than 20 years old? Where are the tales of the 1937 championship winning side or Jock McStirrup who scored 57 goals in 52 games in the 1950's or Andy Evans who made 897 appearences between 1964 and 1982 scoring once. Where is the last minute cup win in 1983? etc etc.

That might not seem important but it is important to fans as being part of the history and fabric of the club. That history is important as it is part of belonging to something that was there before you and will be there after you go. It is important when you think about all the old boys who never got to see the team play at Wembley or in the premier league. Where is the grandfather passing on the faith to the son and onto the grandson? Where is the young boy asking his granddad how good Jock McStirrup really was? Yes son. Dean Lewington was a good player. Doesn't quite work the same i am afraid.

For those who cry foul about football homelessness and the disgrace of (old) Wimbledon’s situation, something to bear in mind:

AFC Wimbledon, who are currently based in Kingston, for some time have ground shared Kingsmeadow Stadium with Kingstonian, AFC having purchased the lease from the local council. However when the money came calling - Chelsea wanting Kingsmeadow for their womens’ team and reserves - AFC promptly sold the lease, which made Kingstonian (who are the local club of Kingston!) homeless! AFC Wimbledon simply sold the ground lease from beneath Kingstonian in order to accommodate their ambitions of being a going concern.

As a result, Kingstonian, the local team of Kingston, London, founded 1885, now play their matches in Leatherhead, Surrey, well outside London. (NB: they retained their league place)

The reason for me including this anecdote isn’t to spit on AFC, an otherwise decent club with whom I have no quarrel. It’s simply to illustrate that running football clubs in the modern era is difficult and people have to make difficult and sometimes controversial decisions. AFC don’t like being reminded of the fact they had to shaft Kingstonian, because it undermines their whole narrative about getting royally dumped on “back in the old Wimbledon days”.

Agreed - that is a poor show. However, Darlo fans know how hard finding a new ground is. We have led a nomadic life and currently rent form the rugby club. it isnt uncommon in non league football to play away from your home town

There are still quite a few bitter people in the AFC set up. This is a shame. Life is hard, and if you look around at what both MK and AFC have achieved, I think we could all agree that the outcomes are better than had Wimbledon disappeared into nothing in 2001.

I don't agree. Sorry. However, I am not bitter. I am angry. The troubles of my club ( Darlington) are well documented. Dodgy owners and the FA screwed us and relegated us from the conference to the Northern League. We have battled back as far as National League North. That has been done on the back of fans investment alone. That is how you progress. You don't steal another club.

 

[AlterEgo]

Correct. It is sinful and dirty. The simple fact is that MK Dongs should not exist in the form they do. They stole another football club

That’s not quite true, although it’s also not entirely incorrect. It’s a fact that Winkelman’s consortium, Inter MK, wanted to redevelop the area around what’s now Stadium:MK and for this they’d need a tenant. Therefore they were more than amenable to encouraging “Wimbledon” to move to Milton Keynes. Did Winkelman steal a club? Well, sort of, but also not really at the same time.

If it had remained named Wimbledon I think there would be less objection.

Is this the concern of the fans who, having had a League football team suddenly pop up on their front doorsteps, then went to watch the football? (Re: fan base, I’ll cover that later in more depth)

and that makes a mockery of everything the pyramid structure of English football is meant to represent.

Not sure I agree entirely, but as I said before it’s a contentious area and I am certain that an MK Dons style move, almost without precedent in the modern era, won’t happen again unless circumstances are radically different.

We had to build our club up from nothing, with only fans money, after dodgy owners and the FA screwed us. Why bother? Why not just steal another club and rename them taking their position in the league? It is wrong that the Doings were allowed to do this and wrong that the FA lacked the balls to refuse them permission. The existence of the club disgusts me.

Asking whether a very old team with a fine history like Darlington would “steal another club” and wear it like a wolf in sheep’s clothing is a different question to asking whether a club which relocated and renamed deserves to exist and have a support base.

So? They didn't cheat their way into the league. They worked their way up from non league level to the football league then all the way to the first division in just 4 years. They did things properly. That is the difference. If the Dongs had fought through the non league pyramid and achieved league status and a fantastic ground i would be a fan.

AFC will always have the “moral victory” of working their way up from non league. Nonetheless they have had, from the outset, good resourcing and a far better playing and coaching staff than any of the teams in non league. I’m not sure how I would feel as a player or supporter in the Combined Counties League for a new team like AFC Wimbledon with unusually large backing from thousands of fans, to suddenly pop up (as surprisingly and arbitrarily as MK Dons did), play in my league, and win it by miles, giving nobody else a chance. Perhaps you’d give AFC a bye on that charge, as it’s not their fault, but if I was a fan of a Combined Counties club I wouldn’t want it happening again!

I don’t believe in arbitrary expulsion or demotion of football clubs. I agree that Darlington were completely dumped on by the League and they were treated disgracefully. For you to start afresh from the very bottom is an injustice. The club should have been awarded a place in the League or National League commensurate with the quality of the team. That’s what happened with MK Dons, and I think on balance that’s the right thing. The team plays in the proper league for the quality of the side. What happened with Darlington (and even Luton down the road to a certain extent) is perverse and unjust.

So? Bad attendances don't justify relocating a club to a new town. We don't have franchises we have teams with geographical connections and local roots. They are important to the people who support them, even if it is only a handful.

Maybe they don’t, but it was either relocate or die. So instead of having two clubs you’d have none. I am reasonably confident there would have been no AFC Wimbledon which was formed out of a single issue, the relocation - the old Wimbledon was a club totally on the wane with, as I pointed out, an artificial support from people considering them a second club. This is not to put the old fans of Wimbledon down, I’m sure most of them were good people, but I am just analysing the facts at hand, which are usually lost.

other than the fact they haven't earn't that level of football and they mock everything proper clubs stand for and hope to achieve. Thye take a place i nthe football league that rightly belongs to anohter club.

Which club would you propose artificially take their place, having not earned the distinction through “fair” means already?

Turning to the fans: The club is non threatening basically because they are supported by plastic fans who have changed allegiance and don't understand football or what it means to real fans or to be a real fan.

That’s not true at all. As you say, you’ve never been to a game. I have been to loads - maybe a hundred, and held a season ticket for a few years, 2007-10.

MK Dons fans categorically have not “changed allegiance”. This implies that those fans are like weather vanes, who supported another club and then dropped that club to support MK. Not true, and I can’t think of anyone who goes to the games that’s like that.

MK Dons fans are like no other fans but not for that reason.

There are broadly three groups of fan at MK:

1) Second club/local club attendees. These are people who turn up to support the local team. Usually my age or older, they might support a Premier League side, or maybe even another local side (bloke who stands next to me is a Luton fan). The affinity for one’s first team - in my case Liverpool, whom I’ve supported under duress since age 4 - is undiminished. That said, MK Dons is not the whole life of any of the people who make up this segment of fans.

2) Newcomers to football. These people haven’t a clue about football. They’re new to the game. These include the people in front of me who think you can be offside from a throw in, and who have unrealistic expectations of the abilities of a League One footballer. They aren’t plastics and I don’t think they deserve our scorn. These are people who supported nobody before the Dons turned up. I think it’s good that these people are being encouraged to go and watch live football.

3) Young diehards. These are teenagers, maybe ages 14-19, who have never supported any other club before the Dons, but who really really care about the club. These guys aren’t any different to teenagers who support Peterborough or Scunthorpe or Lincoln City.

No MK fan truly is a “plastic”. You should have seen them against Peterborough. A real siege mentality, people shouting themselves hoarse, some very choice language. You could not have told the difference on that day between the Cowshed and any other crowd behind a goal at any other given League game.

The club is “non threatening” because the following is slightly more middle class than normal. Also, MK fans are already on the back foot because of the club’s history, and as a result there is more work to be done to convince people we aren’t lizard men with green blood and a thirst for dead football clubs. It’s gestures like trying to have a whip round for Hyde FC. Hyde played MK Dons at their place. They have a plastic pitch. A Hyde “fan” lobbed a flare onto the pitch, ruining it and making it very costly to repair. Dons fans didn’t even damage it, but the point is they raised money to contribute towards it as a way of showing they do indeed have respect for lower league football, contrary to the cries of some.

How can you when your club is less than 20 years old? Where are the tales of the 1937 championship winning side or Jock McStirrup who scored 57 goals in 52 games in the 1950's or Andy Evans who made 897 appearences between 1964 and 1982 scoring once. Where is the last minute cup win in 1983? etc etc.

That might not seem important but it is important to fans as being part of the history and fabric of the club. That history is important as it is part of belonging to something that was there before you and will be there after you go.

The history is nice to have. I support Liverpool, a club which dines out too often on its history. The history is very important and helps the club amass support and credibility. But don’t forget Liverpool were once a new club too. So were Everton, in fact; they were born out of a serious dispute with Liverpool’s owner who basically shafted them. I wonder sometimes if that dispute was the talk of the town at the time, or if anyone cared. In the mists of time, the MK Dons furore will simply evaporate and be something you only read about on Wikipedia. When Liverpool and Everton play now, the rivalry is simply that each team respects the other, that they are indeed “the other” and local pride is at stake. It’s not a grudge match.

In terms of history, MK Dons already have played at two grounds (you work on the site of the old one I believe!). They played at the rubbish hockey stadium for a few years with temporary stands which bounced as people cheered. Playoff heartbreak several years in a row. Then success. A trip to Wembley when we won a trophy. Wonderful cup runs against Manchester United (thrashing them 4-0 at Home), and Premier League QPR (4-2 away). Losing in the last minute to Millwall. Watching the team sink to relegation in the Championship. Some of the old players we had play for us. Dietmar Hamann. Ugo Ehiogu. Tore Andre Flo.

There’s already a lot of memories in just 11 years.

Where is the grandfather passing on the faith to the son and onto the grandson? Where is the young boy asking his granddad how good Jock McStirrup really was?

It hasn’t happened yet, but it will.

Yes son. Dean Lewington was a good player. Doesn't quite work the same i am afraid.

He was a Wimbledon player as well you know! The goalkeeping coach, Paul Heald, played for Wimbledon. There are still a few old faces from the old Wimbledon around in various parts of the club.

I don't agree. Sorry. However, I am not bitter. I am angry. The troubles of my club ( Darlington) are well documented. Dodgy owners and the FA screwed us and relegated us from the conference to the Northern League. We have battled back as far as National League North. That has been done on the back of fans investment alone. That is how you progress. You don't steal another club.

Yes, the FA screwed Darlington.

If I was not an MK Dons fan and I had never been to see them play then I would probably be anti-Dons myself. But I genuinely don’t think you can dismiss the Dons with any authority until you spend a few games in the Cowshed.

 

[roversfan2001]

There are broadly three groups of fan at MK:

1) Second club/local club attendees. These are people who turn up to support the local team. Usually my age or older, they might support a Premier League side, or maybe even another local side (bloke who stands next to me is a Luton fan). The affinity for one’s first team - in my case Liverpool, whom I’ve supported under duress since age 4 - is undiminished. That said, MK Dons is not the whole life of any of the people who make up this segment of fans.

2) Newcomers to football. These people haven’t a clue about football. They’re new to the game. These include the people in front of me who think you can be offside from a throw in, and who have unrealistic expectations of the abilities of a League One footballer. They aren’t plastics and I don’t think they deserve our scorn. These are people who supported nobody before the Dons turned up. I think it’s good that these people are being encouraged to go and watch live football.

3) Young diehards. These are teenagers, maybe ages 14-19, who have never supported any other club before the Dons, but who really really care about the club. These guys aren’t any different to teenagers who support Peterborough or Scunthorpe or Lincoln City.

I don't think anyone can bemoan the third group there, if they've known nothing else other than MK Dons then fair play to them for not spending their Saturday's in front of the TV watching Soccer Saturday. This split of fans presumably explains their poor away support, groups 1 and 2 wouldn't usually travel to, say, Portsmouth on a Tuesday night.

I do think the hatred/dislike for MK will decrease now AFCW are on a level pegging with them, if they were to ever be in a division higher then most would say that justice has been served I reckon. Though one positive of MK Dons and their soulless bowl is that they give away fans an unholy amount of tickets if they need it, hopefully we'll be there in numbers later this year

 

[Darandio]

More brainless fans not covering themselves in glory.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42558360

Livermore altercation with West Ham fan was over death of son

West Brom have said Jake Livermore confronted a West Ham fan after a comment was made about the death of the midfielder's infant son. The player was involved in an angry exchange after he was substituted in the second half of his side's 2-1 loss. Livermore and his partner lost their newborn son Jake Junior in May 2014. West Brom have offered their "total support" to the England international and have sent their observations to the Football Association.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42548221

Falkirk sorry after fans throw fake eyeballs at Dunfermline's Shiels

Falkirk have apologised to Dean Shiels after the Dunfermline Athletic midfielder had fake eyeballs thrown at him during Tuesday's Championship game. Bairns players Joe McKee and Kevin O'Hara remain suspended after being found guilty of taunting the midfielder in October over the loss of an eye. Shiels, 32, was abused by Falkirk fans in the Pars' 2-0 victory on Tuesday. "Falkirk FC apologises unreservedly for the abhorrent behaviour of a small number of individuals," the club said.

And what happens when opposition fans throw a chocolate bar at you? Take a bite of course.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/scotland/42554497

 

[DarloRich]

That’s not quite true, although it’s also not entirely incorrect. It’s a fact that Winkelman’s consortium, Inter MK, wanted to redevelop the area around what’s now Stadium:MK and for this they’d need a tenant. Therefore they were more than amenable to encouraging “Wimbledon” to move to Milton Keynes. Did Winkelman steal a club? Well, sort of, but also not really at the same time.

If it had remained named Wimbledon I think there would be less objection.

Is this the concern of the fans who, having had a League football team suddenly pop up on their front doorsteps, then went to watch the football? (Re: fan base, I’ll cover that later in more depth)

It is the move ( and the FA craven acceptance of such a move) that angers me. Moving the club should have led to a completely new name. it should be Milton Keynes Football Club.

And those lucky fans had football before it just wasn't fancy enough for them. it was dull and boring lower league bundles. They didn't think they needed to lower themselves to that level. Luton and Northampton and Wycombe and Oxford would have been very happy of their support and cash. Instead they spent it on replica Manchester United strips and sky sports.

Not sure I agree entirely, but as I said before it’s a contentious area and I am certain that an MK Dons style move, almost without precedent in the modern era, won’t happen again unless circumstances are radically different..

I agree that it is highly unlikely such move would be allowed. And that is the right thing. You want a club. Start form the bottom like everyone else.

Asking whether a very old team with a fine history like Darlington would “steal another club” and wear it like a wolf in sheep’s clothing is a different question to asking whether a club which relocated and renamed deserves to exist and have a support base..

And my view is that MK Dons do not deserve to exist. They have not earned their position and are a wolf in sheeps clothing. They exist because they used the carcass of another, older, more successful club as a tool to short cut the system. They thought then ( and still think) that system should not apply to them like it applies to the rest of us. That coupled with a shocking arrogance at the outset turned a difficult situation into a toxic one.

AFC will always have the “moral victory” of working their way up from non league. Nonetheless they have had, from the outset, good resourcing and a far better playing and coaching staff than any of the teams in non league. I’m not sure how I would feel as a player or supporter in the Combined Counties League for a new team like AFC Wimbledon with unusually large backing from thousands of fans, to suddenly pop up (as surprisingly and arbitrarily as MK Dons did), play in my league, and win it by miles, giving nobody else a chance. Perhaps you’d give AFC a bye on that charge, as it’s not their fault, but if I was a fan of a Combined Counties club I wouldn’t want it happening again!

The record attendance and funding brought by a visit of a bigger fish playing in a smaller pond is always of use. We faced similar issues in the Northern League and the clubs moaned like mad until the tills started to ring. Also, non league is filled with clubs with backers. Salford, Fylde, Billericay etc who have pots of cash and the ability to buy the best. They don't, always, win the league. I am looking at you Salford

I don’t believe in arbitrary expulsion or demotion of football clubs. I agree that Darlington were completely dumped on by the League and they were treated disgracefully. For you to start afresh from the very bottom is an injustice. The club should have been awarded a place in the League or National League commensurate with the quality of the team. That’s what happened with MK Dons, and I think on balance that’s the right thing. The team plays in the proper league for the quality of the side. What happened with Darlington (and even Luton down the road to a certain extent) is perverse and unjust.

Rules are rules. However the FA are not consistent and don't, really, care about anything other than the premier league and England. Small clubs are treated worse than excrement on their shoe. The important thing is the rules say that if you want to play in league 1 you earn the right to do so. We all know that and we all understand that. All except the Dongs.

As an aside what really boiled my urine about Darlington was the FA deciding we needed a new name. Clowns. it has been a good journey over recent years years but I would swap it all for those past 5 or 6 years to have revolved around needing a of points at Rochdale on the last day of the season to stay up. Just like the previous 30 years

Maybe they don’t, but it was either relocate or die. So instead of having two clubs you’d have none. I am reasonably confident there would have been no AFC Wimbledon which was formed out of a single issue, the relocation - the old Wimbledon was a club totally on the wane with, as I pointed out, an artificial support from people considering them a second club. This is not to put the old fans of Wimbledon down, I’m sure most of them were good people, but I am just analysing the facts at hand, which are usually lost.

So there would be neither club. It is terrible for the fans of Wimbledon but it happens. But that still isn't an excuse to allow a club to move from its home to a new town and assume some kind of zombie identity.

Which club would you propose artificially take their place, having not earned the distinction through “fair” means already?

That happens through the leagues with clubs folding, asking to be moved down or giving up promotion for finance or ground reasons. Most often the club that finishes in the last relegation place is spared but the league rules cover this. It might be rare in professional football but it happens quite often in non league.

That’s not true at all. As you say, you’ve never been to a game. I have been to loads - maybe a hundred, and held a season ticket for a few years, 2007-10.

I have been to a game. I went to see a 1-1 draw with Boro two seasons ago. I spent no money there, didn't pay for the ticket. The only atmosphere came form the proper football fans following Boro. It was an awful game.

MK Dons fans categorically have not “changed allegiance”. This implies that those fans are like weather vanes, who supported another club and then dropped that club to support MK. Not true, and I can’t think of anyone who goes to the games that’s like that.MK Dons fans are like no other fans but not for that reason.

You are right they are like no other fans. They professed their "love" (via sky) for Premier League clubs then suddenly decided they supported the Dongs. Plastic. They can not have the same kind of emotional attachment that real fans have with real clubs. It isnt possible. They supported someone else and changed. I could not conceive of the emotional ( and now financial!) investment I have in Darlington suddenly being so worthless as to support Scotch Corner FC.

There are broadly three groups of fan at MK:

1) Second club/local club attendees. These are people who turn up to support the local team. Usually my age or older, they might support a Premier League side, or maybe even another local side (bloke who stands next to me is a Luton fan). The affinity for one’s first team - in my case Liverpool, whom I’ve supported under duress since age 4 - is undiminished. That said, MK Dons is not the whole life of any of the people who make up this segment of fans.

How on earth can you be a Luton fan and watch the Dongs other than as a day out? I don't understand it. Sorry. I watch lots of football but if I cant get to Darlo my first thought is how I will follow the game and keep across the result?

2) Newcomers to football. These people haven’t a clue about football. They’re new to the game. These include the people in front of me who think you can be offside from a throw in, and who have unrealistic expectations of the abilities of a League One footballer. They aren’t plastics and I don’t think they deserve our scorn. These are people who supported nobody before the Dons turned up. I think it’s good that these people are being encouraged to go and watch live football.

Anywhere but the Dongs. Buckingham Town play less than a mile away. Go there. Funny these people weren't interested in football before a nice shiny super stadium and made up team was dropped on them. Did they go to Northampton or Luton? No. They went to Franklins Gardens or the Stoop.

I get MK isnt a "football town" like the northern former industrial towns & I get that people might be coming to football cold ( as hard as i find that to believe) and i get a dad might take his lad ( like my dad took me) to the match for the first time but football, league football, existed close by for years. Why didn't they pop along to check it out before now?

3) Young diehards. These are teenagers, maybe ages 14-19, who have never supported any other club before the Dons, but who really really care about the club. These guys aren’t any different to teenagers who support Peterborough or Scunthorpe or Lincoln City.

I will cut kids a tiny bit of slack. The Dongs ( hateful as they may be) are their local club. They haven't known anything better and have had lots of community engagement chucked at them. Personally I blame the parents - failing in their educational duties

No MK fan truly is a “plastic”. You should have seen them against Peterborough. A real siege mentality, people shouting themselves hoarse, some very choice language. You could not have told the difference on that day between the Cowshed and any other crowd behind a goal at any other given League game.

I disagree. You said yourself they support/ted other clubs. That is against the code.

Also - Most clubs don't have to manufacture a name for the part of the ground where the vocal fans stand. It has evolved almost organically over years and is steeped in history. ( that pesky history thing again ) It is a big thing when you graduate from the paddock to the home end

The club is “non threatening” because the following is slightly more middle class than normal. Also, MK fans are already on the back foot because of the club’s history, and as a result there is more work to be done to convince people we aren’t lizard men with green blood and a thirst for dead football clubs. It’s gestures like trying to have a whip round for Hyde FC. Hyde played MK Dons at their place. They have a plastic pitch. A Hyde “fan” lobbed a flare onto the pitch, ruining it and making it very costly to repair. Dons fans didn’t even damage it, but the point is they raised money to contribute towards it as a way of showing they do indeed have respect for lower league football, contrary to the cries of some.

That is really good. However, it will take many years of that kind of thing to change the views of many of us. not the fans fault that the FA failed to block the move but it is easy to "respect" when you haven't fought your way through the swamp.

BTW I will point out the Dongs have a shockingly small away following. Really awful. You cant rely on many of the people set out in your three classes above when the chips are down. Carlisle or Torquay or Histon away on a Tuesday is the test of real fans

The history is nice to have. I support Liverpool, a club which dines out too often on its history. The history is very important and helps the club amass support and credibility. But don’t forget Liverpool were once a new club too. So were Everton, in fact; they were born out of a serious dispute with Liverpool’s owner who basically shafted them. I wonder sometimes if that dispute was the talk of the town at the time, or if anyone cared. In the mists of time, the MK Dons furore will simply evaporate and be something you only read about on Wikipedia. When Liverpool and Everton play now, the rivalry is simply that each team respects the other, that they are indeed “the other” and local pride is at stake. It’s not a grudge match.

But that happened at the dawn of football time not when clubs were established and wired into the fabric of their community. I am sure the furore of the founding of MK Dongs will fade away but that doesn't make it right. I will never have a good word for them. They make a mockery of everything football should be about. It should be about success based on achievement.

In terms of history, MK Dons already have played at two grounds (you work on the site of the old one I believe!). They played at the rubbish hockey stadium for a few years with temporary stands which bounced as people cheered. Playoff heartbreak several years in a row. Then success. A trip to Wembley when we won a trophy. Wonderful cup runs against Manchester United (thrashing them 4-0 at Home), and Premier League QPR (4-2 away). Losing in the last minute to Millwall. Watching the team sink to relegation in the Championship. Some of the old players we had play for us. Dietmar Hamann. Ugo Ehiogu. Tore Andre Flo.

There’s already a lot of memories in just 11 years.

The history isnt nice to have. It is crucial. That's a really big part of what makes a football team. It makes the club part of the community. It ties families together over the years and it forms part of the identity of the town. It is an unbroken chain stretching back over the years with the love of the club passed on to the next generation.

The greatest injury the FA threw at us was to make us change our name and for them to pretend we had no history. That was grievous and petty. Our history might be a history of almost unmitigated crapness but it was ours and we made it, we struggled for every small success, we took all manner of blows ( as a club and a town) but we kept on and we keep on. The Dongs don't have that. They lack the soul that real football teams have. That is something really important but really nebulous. It has no financial value but has a value beyond estimation. It might not seem important in the instant throw away premier league world ( est 1992) but it is what holds clubs and fans together, especially when times are hard.

I am not sure the Dongs fans understand any of that. You need years of being kicked in the balls to understand what being a real football fan really is. That makes the one promotion a decade all the sweeter!

If I was not an MK Dons fan and I had never been to see them play then I would probably be anti-Dons myself. But I genuinely don’t think you can dismiss the Dons with any authority until you spend a few games in the Cowshed.

Why? Does that make the formation of the club anymore acceptable? Does that make their existence, which mocks smaller clubs striving to be the best they can be, any more palatable? I don't think the people watching the matches are bad people. They want to watch "their" team. I simply feel that the club should not exist as it does and that its formation was wrong.

 

[bb21]

Correct. It is sinful and dirty. The simple fact is that MK Dongs should not exist in the form they do. They stole another football club and that makes a mockery of everything the pyramid structure of English football is meant to represent. Why work hard building yourself up from the Spartan South Midlands league like everyone else? Just steal your way into league one. It spits on everything small clubs stand for and dream about. I know this doesn't really mater to many in the premier league obsessed football world but, trust me, it matters to fans of small clubs.

Hear, hear. They should have started at the bottom of the pyramid like everyone else would have done if they considered themselves a new starter. Had they fought their way up, no one would begrudge them of their position in the league.

It is arguable that by taking a position in the league buying out the trouble-stricken Wimbledon rather than letting them go bust and reform, they cheated the likes of Carlisle (who finished 23rd in Division 3) or Aldershot (Conference play-off finalist) out of a rightful league position.

The existence of the club disgusts me.

It isn't so much the existence of the club but the manner they went about their business initially that I totally despise.

I bet I live the closest to the Stadio della Dongs of any poster on this board. I will never give that club a penny of my money and if i could see the ground from my house I would shut the curtains. My Local club is Luton or Northampton. ( actually it Buckingham Town who play about 100 yards form my house but that is a different story!)

I must admit to giving that club money, but minimised their income by going in a cup game to tick off the ground, so revenue shared.

If the Dongs had fought through the non league pyramid and achieved league status and a fantastic ground i would be a fan.

Exactly.

So? Bad attendances don't justify relocating a club to a new town. We don't have franchises we have teams with geographical connections and local roots. They are important to the people who support them, even if it is only a handful.

Rotherham a clear case in point when the FA instructed them to move back from the Don Valley to within the boundary of Rotherham within 3 seasons when they moved out of Millmoor. Their league position would be in jeopardy otherwise.

That’s not quite true, although it’s also not entirely incorrect. It’s a fact that Winkelman’s consortium, Inter MK, wanted to redevelop the area around what’s now Stadium:MK and for this they’d need a tenant. Therefore they were more than amenable to encouraging “Wimbledon” to move to Milton Keynes. Did Winkelman steal a club? Well, sort of, but also not really at the same time.

If it had remained named Wimbledon I think there would be less objection.

Rotherham is a clear case that says otherwise. They would have to have moved back to Merton or a nearby borough by now.

If I remember correctly, the club initially did pretend that it were the continuation of Wimbledon and inherited their glory in the decades before. Didn't they only give the trophies back to the borough around 2007 times when public outrage from supporters nationwide grew too much for them that they decided it would be best to brand the club as a new starter?

Is this the concern of the fans who, having had a League football team suddenly pop up on their front doorsteps, then went to watch the football? (Re: fan base, I’ll cover that later in more depth)

I don't have any particular dislike for their fans. My disgust is reserved for the club, in the same way that I have warmed to a new generation of Leeds supporters, but still find the club deeply unbearable.

AFC will always have the “moral victory” of working their way up from non league. Nonetheless they have had, from the outset, good resourcing and a far better playing and coaching staff than any of the teams in non league. I’m not sure how I would feel as a player or supporter in the Combined Counties League for a new team like AFC Wimbledon with unusually large backing from thousands of fans, to suddenly pop up (as surprisingly and arbitrarily as MK Dons did), play in my league, and win it by miles, giving nobody else a chance. Perhaps you’d give AFC a bye on that charge, as it’s not their fault, but if I was a fan of a Combined Counties club I wouldn’t want it happening again!

It's all part and parcel of the lower echelons of the football pyramid. A professional club which went bust and reformed itself would naturally end up somewhere around the bottom of the pyramid (not always necessarily the lowest tier) and it has always been the case.

I don’t believe in arbitrary expulsion or demotion of football clubs. I agree that Darlington were completely dumped on by the League and they were treated disgracefully. For you to start afresh from the very bottom is an injustice. The club should have been awarded a place in the League or National League commensurate with the quality of the team. That’s what happened with MK Dons, and I think on balance that’s the right thing. The team plays in the proper league for the quality of the side. What happened with Darlington (and even Luton down the road to a certain extent) is perverse and unjust.

The league has it completely wrong by punishing the club after the dodgy owners did their business. The "fit and proper" persons test is a complete joke. That is where the FA should start, not punishing the die-hard fans who had already suffered enough in the hands of those owners.

That said, I don't agree that you can draw parallels between MK Dons and Luton/Darlington.

Which club would you propose artificially take their place, having not earned the distinction through “fair” means already?

Quite simply, every club below moves up a position. The league is formed based on relative positions between the clubs in each division in any case, so you will still have more or less the strongest 92 clubs for the top four tiers.

 

[Minilad]

I can't help but feel that switching your allegiance to another club may do your blood pressure a world of wonders.

Now you know that that just can't happen.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is the move ( and the FA craven acceptance of such a move) that angers me. Moving the club should have led to a completely new name. it should be Milton Keynes Football Club.

I agree that it’s wrong that the Club accepts it’s a new creation yet retains the Dons epithet. It doesn’t make me lose sleep but it also doesn’t make any sense.

And those lucky fans had football before it just wasn't fancy enough for them. it was dull and boring lower league bundles. They didn't think they needed to lower themselves to that level. Luton and Northampton and Wycombe and Oxford would have been very happy of their support and cash. Instead they spent it on replica Manchester United strips and sky sports.

I don’t think that’s generally true about the Man U strips and so on. There’s some truth in the fact that there’s always been football in MK, it’s just in the lower leagues, and people didn’t go to watch it. But you have to accept that newcomers to football don’t get drawn in by ninth tier football, which in my experience can be insular and parochial (these things form part of its charm but even so, don’t expect home gates of 10,000).

That coupled with a shocking arrogance at the outset turned a difficult situation into a toxic one.

The attitude at the time was not good, I agree.

The record attendance and funding brought by a visit of a bigger fish playing in a smaller pond is always of use. We faced similar issues in the Northern League and the clubs moaned like mad until the tills started to ring.

Ah right so money talks, sod the principles...

So there would be neither club. It is terrible for the fans of Wimbledon but it happens. But that still isn't an excuse to allow a club to move from its home to a new town and assume some kind of zombie identity.

MK Dons doesn’t have a zombie identity. It has its own identity entirely separate from old Wimbledon and quite unlike any other club. It might not be an identity you like but it is 100% its own club with its quirks like any other.


I have been to a game. I went to see a 1-1 draw with Boro two seasons ago. I spent no money there, didn't pay for the ticket. The only atmosphere came form the proper football fans following Boro. It was an awful game.

You are right they are like no other fans. They professed their "love" (via sky) for Premier League clubs then suddenly decided they supported the Dongs. Plastic.

Only a minority are like that. And no, not plastic. What’s wrong with people who engage with football only through the telly then going and supporting a lower Football League team, for whatever reason? What reasons do they have to have to turn up to that first game?

They can not have the same kind of emotional attachment that real fans have with real clubs. It isnt possible. They supported someone else and changed. I could not conceive of the emotional ( and now financial!) investment I have in Darlington suddenly being so worthless as to support Scotch Corner FC.[/quote]

As I have explained earlier, I can think of no fan who has dropped allegiance to any team to then support MK Dons. They’re a club which are a second team to many, and a first to many others who hadn’t ever seen a game before or who are young enough to have MK as their first club. It’s not a zero-sum game.

How on earth can you be a Luton fan and watch the Dongs other than as a day out? I don't understand it. Sorry. I watch lots of football but if I cant get to Darlo my first thought is how I will follow the game and keep across the result?

Anywhere but the Dongs. Buckingham Town play less than a mile away. Go there. Funny these people weren't interested in football before a nice shiny super stadium and made up team was dropped on them. Did they go to Northampton or Luton? No. They went to Franklins Gardens or the Stoop.

In 2004, the year MK adopted their current guise, Luton Town were promoted into the Championship as champions of League One. Northampton were in the League Two playoffs and MK had avoided relegation to League Two on the last day. These are clubs which are no smaller than MK to say the least. MK were playing in temporary stands at the Hockey Stadium. MK Dons was simply on the doorstep and they were going to adopt a Milton Keynes identity. Attendances nearly doubled at the Hockey Stadium after the name change. It wasn’t the new stadium and nice toilets that made people attend, though it helps.

I get MK isnt a "football town" like the northern former industrial towns & I get that people might be coming to football cold ( as hard as i find that to believe) and i get a dad might take his lad ( like my dad took me) to the match for the first time but football, league football, existed close by for years. Why didn't they pop along to check it out before now?

Probably because lower leagues, even in the Football League, are parochial and insular, as I’ve said, and blokes might mutter about them turning up for the first time, haven’t seen you before, bloody fairweathers, Sky Sports, replica Chelsea kit, blah blah, where were you when it was raining two weeks ago, this is our life, etc etc.

I disagree. You said yourself they support/ted other clubs. That is against the code.

There isn’t a code. I’m a Liverpool fan. I go to games when finances and time (and ticket availability) allow - not often.

I also attend many MK games as they’re the local team. I think there’s a lot of parallels between Milton Keynes, the place nobody likes other than those who live there, and MK Dons, the team nobody likes other than those who go to the games.

I played for Watford’s youth setup so I keep an eye out for their results.

My dad played for Derry City so I keep an eye out for their results too.

There isn’t a code about who can support who. People claim there is and then wonder why people don’t pop along for that first game!

Also - Most clubs don't have to manufacture a name for the part of the ground where the vocal fans stand. It has evolved almost organically over years and is steeped in history. ( that pesky history thing again ) It is a big thing when you graduate from the paddock to the home end

The name isn’t manufactured. It’s called the Cowshed, a name given to it by the fans and not the club. This was the temporary stand behind the goal which was mostly corrugated iron, which fans on the back row could bang, and did indeed resemble (sort of) a cowshed. This ties in with famous MK cultural landmarks the Concrete Cows. It was named by the fans and reflects local influences, so I don’t see what’s “wrong” with it. The Cowshed name simply transferred with the new stadium.

Incidentally, the away end is called the Boycott End by fans (it has no official name). This is because AFC Wimbledon fans, who had chuntered for a decade about a permanent boycott of the MK Dons, sold out the entire end when they played us for the first time. They also vandalised the toilets, abused the bar staff and smeared excrement everywhere, but what can you do eh?

BTW I will point out the Dongs have a shockingly small away following.

Indeed they do, because the type of fan who really really cares is generally young and without transport. At the moment. It’ll change in the next five years.

They make a mockery of everything football should be about.

Inclusion, tolerance, getting kids to play and get fit, getting families along, good facilities, community outreach, a mockery for sure.

The history isnt nice to have. It is crucial. That's a really big part of what makes a football team. It makes the club part of the community. It ties families together over the years and it forms part of the identity of the town. It is an unbroken chain stretching back over the years with the love of the club passed on to the next generation.

What if the club is far away, like, in Liverpool, and the main way for you to engage with it is actually through Sky Sports?

All football clubs were born at one time or another.

Why? Does that make the formation of the club anymore acceptable? Does that make their existence, which mocks smaller clubs striving to be the best they can be, any more palatable? I don't think the people watching the matches are bad people. They want to watch "their" team. I simply feel that the club should not exist as it does and that its formation was wrong.

I’m not trying to argue that the formation/transition of the club was right and proper. It wasn’t. What I’m arguing is that it was 15 years ago and there are now more important things to worry about. I’m also trying to highlight the impossible standard newcomers to football must attain to prove that they’re proper supporters. I think the whole football community should be a lot more supportive of newcomers, and that particularly goes for the lower leagues.

If I remember correctly, the club initially did pretend that it were the continuation of Wimbledon and inherited their glory in the decades before. Didn't they only give the trophies back to the borough around 2007 times when public outrage from supporters nationwide grew too much for them that they decided it would be best to brand the club as a new starter?

Sort of yes. I think it was the Football Supporters’ Federation (for the realest real fans of real football) who threatened a boycott unless the trophies were handed back. MK handed them back. Nobody involved with supporting the club really identified with the old Wimbledon and it was not a big issue.

 

[DarloRich]

If I remember correctly, the club initially did pretend that it were the continuation of Wimbledon and inherited their glory in the decades before. Didn't they only give the trophies back to the borough around 2007 times when public outrage from supporters nationwide grew too much for them that they decided it would be best to brand the club as a new starter?

MK had to assume the identity of Wimbledon or they would have had to start as new club. A new club starts in the Spartan South Midland league not league 1.

I don’t think that’s generally true about the Man U strips and so on. There’s some truth in the fact that there’s always been football in MK, it’s just in the lower leagues, and people didn’t go to watch it. But you have to accept that newcomers to football don’t get drawn in by ninth tier football, which in my experience can be insular and parochial (these things form part of its charm but even so, don’t expect home gates of 10,000).

Only a minority are like that. And no, not plastic. What’s wrong with people who engage with football only through the telly then going and supporting a lower Football League team, for whatever reason? What reasons do they have to have to turn up to that first game?

As I have explained earlier, I can think of no fan who has dropped allegiance to any team to then support MK Dons. They’re a club which are a second team to many, and a first to many others who hadn’t ever seen a game before or who are young enough to have MK as their first club. It’s not a zero-sum game.

lets agree to disagree. I know several people at work ( and yes my desk is about where a decent defensive clearance might peak) who follows Dongs. They changed from being, mainly, London premier league club fans. Now they follow MK. I know a couple of people in my local ( the closet to the ground i think) who fit that bill.

I am happy to accept that league one football in a fancy ground is a better draw than northern league football which is why MK were desperate to short circuit the system. As you said they needed a tenant for the development site and a hook to pull in the big names for the retail units . Playing Evo stick/national league south football just wouldn't cut it.

Ah right so money talks, sod the principles...

It did sadly. The gate/pie/booze money from one game against Darlington was enough to keep those sides going for the season. One club tried to stiff us by putting the prices up. We boycotted and no one else tried it. Money certainly talks in football.

Probably because lower leagues, even in the Football League, are parochial and insular, as I’ve said, and blokes might mutter about them turning up for the first time, haven’t seen you before, bloody fairweathers, Sky Sports, replica Chelsea kit, blah blah, where were you when it was raining two weeks ago, this is our life, etc etc.

Not something I have come across tbh. The honest answer is that the "new" Dongs fans didn't fancy crappy football in a crappy ground. What was good for the rest of us wasn't good for them. They didnt want to put the hard work in to gain promotion and success. They just wanted it handed to them. They then wanted to pretended they were part of something. When the hard times comes (which they will - they always do) those fans wont be around to help the club out. They will have moved on to someone or something else.

There isn’t a code. I’m a Liverpool fan. I go to games when finances and time (and ticket availability) allow - not often.

I also attend many MK games as they’re the local team. I think there’s a lot of parallels between Milton Keynes, the place nobody likes other than those who live there, and MK Dons, the team nobody likes other than those who go to the games.

As I said above IF MK had fought to league one through the pyramid I would be there with you and backing the team home and way. They didn't. To prove the point on boxing day MK Dongs played Plymouth at home. We fancied a game so rather than walk 15 minutes to the ground we drove 45 minutes to Rushden to watch Rushden & Diamonds v Kempston Rovers in Evo Stick South East.

There isn’t a code about who can support who. People claim there is and then wonder why people don’t pop along for that first game!

There is a code but the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules

The name isn’t manufactured. It’s called the Cowshed, a name given to it by the fans and not the club. This was the temporary stand behind the goal which was mostly corrugated iron, which fans on the back row could bang, and did indeed resemble (sort of) a cowshed. This ties in with famous MK cultural landmarks the Concrete Cows. It was named by the fans and reflects local influences, so I don’t see what’s “wrong” with it. The Cowshed name simply transferred with the new stadium.

Incidentally, the away end is called the Boycott End by fans (it has no official name). This is because AFC Wimbledon fans, who had chuntered for a decade about a permanent boycott of the MK Dons, sold out the entire end when they played us for the first time. They also vandalised the toilets, abused the bar staff and smeared excrement everywhere, but what can you do eh?

I understand why it is called what it is but of course its manufactured! Its an attempt to look like a proper club by having an "end". Obviously the behaviour of those Wimbledon fans was wrong and unacceptable.

Indeed they do, because the type of fan who really really cares is generally young and without transport. At the moment. It’ll change in the next five years.

No supporters club coaches? I was going on those when I was 12 all over the country. I actually know a couple of people who do go to away games but they are part of a very small group. From the outside there doesn't seem to be that thick and thin, over land and sea, hardcore away following that all clubs have. Sadly that shows one of the problem with the club followers. They don't have that folk history of away trips and adventures over the years and don't seem to want to go.

Inclusion, tolerance, getting kids to play and get fit, getting families along, good facilities, community outreach, a mockery for sure.

As I said great community outreach work that should be a model for the rest of the league - However they insult the whole concept of promotion via achievement upon which the whole pyramid of English football is built. As I said if my club want to get to a similar level of MK Dongs ( and we have played them in the past) we have to be promoted another 3 times on top of the 3 so far. That is tough. We wont be able to do it without luck and if we do manage it it will be built on money from fans alone. We can still dream and hope but that is cheapened when you look at MK dongs living it up in league 1/Championship football. MK didn't have to bother with any of the hard work involved in earning that position. That is wrong and it is insulting to those of us who desperately want to get back to the promised land of league football.

I’m not trying to argue that the formation/transition of the club was right and proper. It wasn’t. What I’m arguing is that it was 15 years ago and there are now more important things to worry about. I’m also trying to highlight the impossible standard newcomers to football must attain to prove that they’re proper supporters. I think the whole football community should be a lot more supportive of newcomers, and that particularly goes for the lower leagues.

I know must people , especially premier league fans, couldn't care less about all of this but It matters to those of us at the bottom. It really does. There isnt anything more important to us than fighting back to where we feel we belong in the league. MK mock that simply by existing. They mock every club below them in the league pyramid busting a gut to play at a higher level. They haven't earned that place in the league. It was gifted to them. That is wrong.

BTW The standards aren't impossible to meet - unless you support MK Dongs

 

[507021]

A dream debut for Virgil van Dijk tonight, scoring the winner at the Kop End against Everton. Can't get much better than that!

 

[507021]

Dutchman Jos Luhukay has been announced as the new manager (the 33rd) of Sheffield Wednesday. After watching his first interview as club manager, I think he is exactly what we need right now. He comes across very well and he is a very disciplined manager, something I feel we are lacking in vefy highly at the moment.

I think Jos will stop us from showing too little respect to the lower league teams who usually get a result against us, because that's been our biggest failing even when we did well in the past two seasons. He has a good record when it comes to top flight promotion, so hopefully he can bring that from the Bundesliga to the Championship.

 

[fowler9]

Apparently after giving away a soft penalty and shoving Firmino over the advertising hoardings without getting a card Holgate has been a victim of racial abuse after being called mad and a son of a b*tch. The FA are investigating.

 

[Karl]

Peter Beardsley is allegedly up for bullying!

£142,000,000

What's happening to the game?

 

[507021]

Peter Beardsley is allegedly up for bullying!

£142,000,000

What's happening to the game?

I thought van Dijk for £75m was too much, personally, but he repaid some of that with a solid debut and scored the winner, which put the icing on the proverbial cake. We've made a decent profit on Coutinho though, at least I can trust Klopp (unlike Hodgson and Rodgers who both made some awful signings) to use it wisely to find a suitable replacement and also strengthen in midfield and in goal. One thing is for certain in my view, we aren't a one man team anymore, and I think we can kick on without him.