For how much longer is the Scotrail amended timetable likely to be in place ?

[General Zod]

Planning a trip to the NW Highlands late July but as the preferred train of choice is not running I may have to book an advance coach ticket instead. Is there any likelihood of the timetables reverting back to normal by then ?
Thanks.

 

[Buffer stop]

I will have a stab at 15th July

 

[General Zod]

That would be great news ! Fingers crossed.

 

[ld0595]

What's the 15th of July based on? Scotrail haven't made any suggestion that the normal timetable will resume any time soon. Given that covid related absences are on the up, it seems very unlikely we'll have a normal timetable by then.

 

[PaulMc7]

If you're being realistic, this timetable will probably be here at the start of next year. They'll want to get enough drivers through to guarantee that there are no cancellations on this timetable before any increases happen.

 

[Peter0124]

Honestly I agree with above, if it's a driver shortage then I reckon a good few months before it's back to normal however they may add an additional service or two in here and there.

 

[InOban]

I assume that if the traincrew accept the offer, then they will restart overtime and rest day working, so some services should resume. But there's still a lot of Covid absence and of course many instructors are occupied with training new staff rather than driving or conducting.

 

[Huntergreed]

Honestly I agree with above, if it's a driver shortage then I reckon a good few months before it's back to normal however they may add an additional service or two in here and there.

It’s not a driver shortage entirely (some of it absolutely is, but some of it is down to a refusal to do rest day working due to an ASLEF dispute). The latest deal was accepted for a ballot (which I’ve not heard anything about thus far), however if accepted then it’s likely the timetable will be improved quite notably.

It certainly won’t be “an additional service here and there” if the deal is accepted.

 

[scotraildriver]

I assume that if the traincrew accept the offer, then they will restart overtime and rest day working, so some services should resume. But there's still a lot of Covid absence and of course many instructors are occupied with training new staff rather than driving or conducting.

Instructors follow their normal shifts whether or not they have a trainee with them so that doesn't affect anything. However lots of drivers have thoroughly enjoyed their time off without being constantly badgered to work, despite the financial loss. I'm not sure everyone will rush back to the overtime

 

[hexagon789]

As was stated at the time, but seems to have been glossed over in other threads, the temporary timetable is in until May 2023.

Some evening and additional services may be added but don't expect the planned May 2022 timetable anytime soon.

 

[Huntergreed]

As was stated at the time, but seems to have been glossed over in other threads, the temporary timetable is in until May 2023.

Some evening and additional services may be added but don't expect the planned May 2022 timetable anytime soon.

So has the ASLEF dispute been used as an excuse to cut services with no intent of returning them upon resolution?

I was under the impression this was the main factor in contributing to the timetable cutback

 

[hexagon789]

So has the ASLEF dispute been used as an excuse to cut services with no intent of returning them upon resolution?

I was under the impression this was the main factor in contributing to the timetable cutback

What I was informed was that even with a deal agreed, the resources to run the full timetable aren't simply returning overnight and it was effectively decided the continue to reduced timetable to provide consistency until the full timetable could be reliably provided.

Hence the May 2023 date, concurrent with the summer timetable change.

 

[43066]

It’s not a driver shortage entirely (some of it absolutely is, but some of it is down to a refusal to do rest day working due to an ASLEF dispute). The latest deal was accepted for a ballot (which I’ve not heard anything about thus far), however if accepted then it’s likely the timetable will be improved quite notably.

It certainly won’t be “an additional service here and there” if the deal is accepted.

A “refusal to do RDW” is a somewhat loaded way of putting it. There’s no obligation on anyone to work overtime, any more the company is obliged to offer it. Indeed many traincrew never work rest days and simply stick to their basic working week. They aren’t “refusing to do overtime”, they’re simply fulfilling their contractual obligations and not choosing to also spend their free time at work.

Of course it suits the company to couch it in terms of “refusal” in order to shift the blame onto staff/unions, rather than admitting: “we don’t employ enough drivers to run the service we are obliged to provide”.

 

[Huntergreed]

A “refusal to do RDW” is a somewhat loaded way of putting it. There’s no obligation on anyone to work overtime, any more the company is obliged to offer it. Indeed many traincrew never work rest days and simply stick to their basic working week.

However this isn’t simply staff choosing not to work overtime, it’s a form of industrial action with the union officially advising all members to refuse rest day working, so I think it’s very fair to claim this is down to a “refusal to do rest day working”

They aren’t “refusing to do overtime”, they’re simply fulfilling their contractual obligations and not choosing to also spend their free time at work.

So it just happens that all staff members, many of whom would choose to voluntarily do overtime previously, have stopped through choice, and aren’t in any way influenced by the advice of the union they are a part of?

Are you also suggesting that they will also continue to refuse overtime after the industrial dispute is over?

An assumption of some degree of RDW seems to work fine for other TOC’s (and this isn’t the correct place to argue about it, but to claim this is purely due to the choice of drivers without any influence from industrial action is incorrect)

Of course it suits the company to couch it in terms of “refusal” in order to shift the blame onto staff/unions, rather than admitting: “we don’t employ enough drivers to run the service we are obliged to provide”.

Should other companies who also rely on rest day working say a similar thing and cut back their timetable because their drivers may, coincidentally, all refuse to do any RDW?

 

[380101]

However this isn’t simply staff choosing not to work overtime, it’s a form of industrial action with the union officially advising all members to refuse rest day working, so I think it’s very fair to claim this is down to a “refusal to do rest day working”

So it just happens that all staff members, many of whom would choose to voluntarily do overtime previously, have stopped through choice, and aren’t in any way influenced by the advice of the union they are a part of?

Are you also suggesting that they will also continue to refuse overtime after the industrial dispute is over?

An assumption of some degree of RDW seems to work fine for other TOC’s (and this isn’t the correct place to argue about it, but to claim this is purely due to the choice of drivers without any influence from industrial action is incorrect)

Should other companies who also rely on rest day working say a similar thing and cut back their timetable because their drivers may, coincidentally, all refuse to do any RDW?

I can categorically assure you that ASLEF have NOT in anyway whatsoever "officially advised members to refuse rest day working". ASLEF would have found themselves in court weeks ago if that had been the case.

Not working your days off outside of your contracted hours is certainly not industrial action however you wish to word it.

 

[Huntergreed]

I can categorically assure you that ASLEF have NOT in anyway whatsoever "officially advised members to refuse rest day working". ASLEF would have found themselves in court weeks ago if that had been the case.

I’ll accept that and apologise for the accusation, as it clearly isn’t official advice (ASLEF are simply negotiating, with drivers choosing to take action as they see fit) however it is true that many (not all) drivers are refusing to work rest days and intend to continue to do so until ASLEF convince Scotrail to provide an acceptable deal on pay and working conditions.

It’s clear that quite a number of drivers are refusing rest day working as a result of pay and conditions in order to make a point. This is one of the major contributory factors leading to the introduction of the temporary timetable. You can define this how you like, how I would define this as an unofficial form of industrial action (voluntarily by drivers if not official, however clearly members of a union refusing rest day working until such a deal is negotiated).

This is partly what is leading to the current situation - I accept there definitely is a driver shortage (caused partly by an inappropriately long and restrictive approach by the government to the Covid pandemic), however the refusal of rest day working by drivers awaiting a resolution of the current dispute by ASLEF is also playing a significant role in the continuation of this timetable.

 

[43066]

I’ll accept that and apologise for the accusation, as it clearly isn’t official advice (ASLEF are simply negotiating, with drivers choosing to take action as they see fit) however it is true that many (not all) drivers are refusing to work rest days and intend to continue to do so until ASLEF convince Scotrail to provide an acceptable deal on pay and working conditions.

There’s a distinction between “refusing” and not actively making themselves available to work those days. Many drivers will never make themselves available for RDW, some will do it occasionally eg to pay for a particular financial commitment, but never do any normally. Would you also say they were “refusing to work overtime”?

This is partly what is leading to the current situation - I accept there definitely is a driver shortage (caused partly by an inappropriately long and restrictive approach by the government to the Covid pandemic), however the refusal of rest day working by drivers awaiting a resolution of the current dispute by ASLEF is also playing a significant role in the continuation of this timetable.

This might be true if there had ever been a time when they weren’t entirely reliant on overtime to run the timetable. However, like all TOCs and BR before them, they have chosen to operate their business on the basis of employing fewer drivers than necessary and relying on RDW to meet their commitments. If, for whatever reason, they then can’t get sufficient volunteers and they can’t deliver the service they’ve been contracted to provide, whose fault is that really?

In just the same way RDW is a “nice to have”, not something that can be counted on. Drivers certainly cannot rely on it always being available, and it would be very foolhardy to enter into financial commitments based on it. The TOCs can take it away or give it when it suits them, so why on Earth should they be able to depend on drivers always agreeing to do it?

 

[Huntergreed]

This might be true if there had ever been a time when they weren’t entirely reliant on overtime to run the timetable. However, like all TOCs and BR before them, they have chosen to operate their business on the basis of employing fewer drivers than necessary and relying on RDW to meet their commitments. If, for whatever reason, they then can’t get sufficient volunteers and they can’t deliver the service they’ve been contracted to provide, whose fault is that really?

I’m not saying that I agree with the principle of the railway relying on RDW, I’m simply saying that it’s a sudden increase in drivers refusing it as a result of the ASLEF dispute (which I’m not necessarily condemning, just stating!) which has partially led to the current reduced timetable.

In just the same way RDW is a “nice to have”, not something that can be counted on. Drivers certainly cannot rely on it always being available, and it would be very foolhardy to enter into financial commitments based on it. The TOCs can take it away or give it when it suits them, so why on Earth should they be able to depend on drivers always agreeing to do it?

I’m not saying that I think this is the best way to run the railway (and indeed if a TOC is reliant on rest day working, then this is always going to be a risk which reflect very poorly on the TOC when it does happen)

 

[43066]

I’m not saying that I agree with the principle of the railway relying on RDW, I’m simply saying that it’s a sudden increase in drivers refusing it as a result of the ASLEF dispute (which I’m not necessarily condemning, just stating!) which has partially led to the current reduced timetable.

I’m not saying that I think this is the best way to run the railway (and indeed if a TOC is reliant on rest day working, then this is always going to be a risk which reflect very poorly on the TOC when it does happen)

To put it another way, it’s an insight into how much the railway relies on goodwill to operate. That applies to willingness to do overtime and a whole host of other things. Once the goodwill is lost, the consequences for the service are dire.

 

[Ex-controller]

Aside from the semantics of whether drivers are refusing to work overtime and/or rest days, at sometime during this year, roughly coinciding with ScotRail’s initial pay offer, driver availability for rest day working plummeted off a cliff to the point that the originally planned service could no longer be provided. This is not a coincidence.

What I was informed was that even with a deal agreed, the resources to run the full timetable aren't simply returning overnight and it was effectively decided the continue to reduced timetable to provide consistency until the full timetable could be reliably provided.

Hence the May 2023 date, concurrent with the summer timetable change.

Is this possibly conflating the timetable implemented from May 2022, which itself is a reduced timetable, with the emergency timetable which was implemented because of the drivers’ overtime ban.

 

[43066]

Aside from the semantics of whether drivers are refusing to work overtime and/or rest days, at sometime during this year, roughly coinciding with ScotRail’s initial pay offer, driver availability for rest day working plummeted off a cliff to the point that the originally planned service could no longer be provided. This is not a coincidence.

And at the same point Scotrail did not have enough staff to operate its required service. That is also not a coincidence! My point is that cannot fairly be blamed on individual drivers, or on their union. Scotrail have made the conscious choice to run their business with insufficient staff. That decision is to blame for the current situation (obvious Covid etc. also hasn’t helped with delays in training).

 

[Ex-controller]

And at the same point Scotrail did not have enough staff to operate its required service. That is also not a coincidence! My point is that cannot fairly be blamed on individual drivers, or on their union. Scotrail have made the conscious choice to run their business with insufficient staff. That decision is to blame for the current situation (obvious Covid etc. also hasn’t helped with delays in training).

I agree with you. But above there was a claim that drivers had just decided to only work to their contracted T&Cs, as if there had been no outside influence or co-ordination. Acknowledging the existence of this is not blaming the drivers for the entire situation, but let’s not insult peoples intelligence here.

FWIW, I sympathise greatly with their position. The initial offer from ScotRail was pathetic, especially for a workforce who had demonstrated a great deal of goodwill throughout the last two years. If I was in their position I’d be using every opportunity possible to show my displeasure. But drivers who previously were happy to work rest days didn’t suddenly all universally wake up and independently decide to no longer do so.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Jenny Gilruth for what shes worth stated back in May

Gilruth said 38 drivers are expected to be trained by the end of this summer, with the figure rising to 55 by the end of the year and to 100 by June 2023.

so if training was on plan and i guess thats a big if would suggest some limited increase in services could be contemplated in September, December but even not fully by May 23. So the question is if the pay rise is accepted by the members would that also allow RDW to be resumed? Mind you given ScotRail has the one of the slowest recovery in passengers amongst UK operators based on last quarters ORR data so maybe in no rush to push up operating costs currently.

 

[Falcon1200]

As was stated at the time, but seems to have been glossed over in other threads, the temporary timetable is in until May 2023.

Some evening and additional services may be added but don't expect the planned May 2022 timetable anytime soon.

That's very worrying (but thanks for the info). I sincerely hope that in the meantime Scotrail are looking at improving the service by making better use of the resources (ie Drivers) they have now, by implementing a better spread of services, instead of what we have on my local line for example; The first two trains into Glasgow withdrawn, then a full service including peak hour extras until 1930/2000, then nothing again for 3 hours until the last train. They can, and must, do better than that.

 

[General Zod]

Yes indeed. It is a pain that the only practical day train from Mallaig to Glasgow which connects to services to London and the South will be the 0603 departure. The said train will be busier than normal I guess as the holiday season has now started. I notice that Scottish Citylink have started running extra services to Oban too.

 

[railfan99]

I am in Australia but hope to be travelling within the next few months, and as part of an intensive 14 days in the UK (where I hope to add a few volunteer-supported tourist railways), am I likely to be able to do a day trip Glasgow - Oban and return on a Sunday, departing initially at 0956 hours and returning IIRC on the 1607 hours from Oban? It's the one Scottish branch I've not done.

 

[ld0595]

Too early to say just now to be honest. At the moment it's just down to luck on the day, especially on Sunday services.

Those two services did run last Sunday but there have been an increasing number of cancellations on Sundays down to driver shortages due to an uptick in covid infections. You'd hope that things would be more reliable in the next few months but at the moment it's an unknown.

 

[General Zod]

Scotrail are selling tickets for travel in August from Mallaig to Glasgow Queen St on the 1010 which under the current amended timetable is not running. I assume anyone who buys tickets for that train has to travel on the 0603 departure instead ?

 

[ld0595]

Scotrail are selling tickets for travel in August from Mallaig to Glasgow Queen St on the 1010 which under the current amended timetable is not running. I assume anyone who buys tickets for that train has to travel on the 0603 departure instead ?

Presumably it's that or a refund.

 

[6Z09]

Wether or not Drivers accept the offer, it's still just another sticking plaster applied to the real issue, that's a seven day roster!
Something consecutive franchise holders have kicked down the Road for the past thirty years. Now it's in Government hands it will have to be dealt with, no longer got Abellio or anyone else to hide behind.