Formula 1

[DarloRich]

One theory i have heard that this is all a power play between the Austrians (led by Marko) who own 49% and the Thais (who support Horner) and have 51%.

that seems to be the common theory.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

although there has been an anonymous leak of alleged evidence from the case to most of the F1 media circus this evening

One theory i have heard that this is all a power play between the Austrians (led by Marko) who own 49% and the Thais (who support Horner) and have 51%.

Wolff hapoy to step in and fill the vacum be interesting to see how C4 comnentators handle it.

 

[kristiang85]

However, there are massive chunks missing in the WhatsApp timeline where there aren't screenshots and various parts where the keyboard is been brought onto the screen to hide half of the page of messages.

There is apparently another leak expected at the start of qualifying, according to various outlets.

Not sure if true or not (how can they know), but that could explain why a lot was missing - a gradual dripfeed to inflict maximum damage.

The big story here is who is responsible. It is quite extraordinary really. I highly doubt its the complainant themselves, as they are identifiable from the leaks and also it means any recourse or future employment is very much kiboshed.

 

[JD2168]

Max Verstappen has qualified on Pole Position for the Bahrain Grand Prix with Charles Leclerc second & George Russell third. Alpine’s fear of a poor start to the season has been confirmed as they will both start on the last row of the grid.

 

[DarloRich]

Max Verstappen has qualified on Pole Position for the Bahrain Grand Prix with Charles Leclerc second & George Russell third. Alpine’s fear of a poor start to the season has been confirmed as they will both start on the last row of the grid.

of course he has - lots of chatter than Red Bull weren't very far ahead despite, surely, every press person knowing the truth! I suppose the gap to Red Bull has closed a little. Hass in 10th is an interesting one. Wonder if they go backwards in the race like last year.

 

[357]

of course he has - lots of chatter than Red Bull weren't very far ahead despite, surely, every press person knowing the truth! I suppose the gap to Red Bull has closed a little. Hass in 10th is an interesting one. Wonder if they go backwards in the race like last year.

Yes everyone seemed to forget last year when the RB was clearly built for race and not quali. All just hype to get clicks on articles.

Looking forward to the race today - I hope it will be close.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes everyone seemed to forget last year when the RB was clearly built for race and not quali. All just hype to get clicks on articles.

Looking forward to the race today - I hope it will be close.

Hopefully! I think first is shown up. Good battle for the rest

 

[357]

Hopefully! I think first is shown up. Good battle for the rest

I'd like to congratulate Max Verstappen on winning the 2024 Drivers Championship.

Can probably turn it off now.

 

[birchesgreen]

I'm enjoying having the grand prix on a Saturday.

 

[DarloRich]

I'd like to congratulate Max Verstappen on winning the 2024 Drivers Championship.

Can probably turn it off now.

Tbh I I haven't turned on as it clashes with football and we all knew the winner!

 

[Bald Rick]

Tbh I I haven't turned on as it clashes with football and we all knew the winner!

The winner was Darlo…

 

[JD2168]

Max Verstappen has won the Bahrain Grand Prix with Sergio Perez in second & Carlos Sainz in third. Fourth was Charles Leclerc despite suffering from braking problems throughout the race & fifth was George Russell with himself & Lewis Hamilton both suffering from cooling issues due to Toto Wolff admitting that Mercedes had closed up the bodywork too much affecting cooling.

All drivers finished the race with Logan Sargeant in last after having to change his steering wheel when it malfunctioned & Valterri Bottas having had a 52 second pit stop when the nut on the front left wheel became cross-threaded.

A reminder that the Second race of the season next week in Saudi Arabia is also on a Saturday.

 

[Mogster]

There is apparently another leak expected at the start of qualifying, according to various outlets.

Not sure if true or not (how can they know), but that could explain why a lot was missing - a gradual dripfeed to inflict maximum damage.

The big story here is who is responsible. It is quite extraordinary really. I highly doubt its the complainant themselves, as they are identifiable from the leaks and also it means any recourse or future employment is very much kiboshed.

I find it incredible that Horner has been at the race and is presumably still attending work with all this going on.

The alleged “evidence” is still freely available online. How do his work colleagues feel about working with him now? Surely this must be a massive hit to his personal authority? Liberty must be in a quandary because his alleged actions clearly don’t represent the values they are trying to portray. There’s stuff on Twitter saying the Austrian side of Red Bull want him gone, while the Thai side are solidly behind him. This seems to be bourne out by the grim sight of him parading round the paddock with his wife and the Thai Red Bull execs. Maybe Horner’s alleged behavior to a subordinate is normal in Thai business culture…

The other question is can Red Bull sack Horner? As he’s CEO is it in their power to do so? He does seem to wield immense power within the team, does that extend to them not being able to fire him?

 

[JamesT]

I find it incredible that Horner has been at the race and is presumably still attending work with all this going on.

The alleged “evidence” is still freely available online. How do his work colleagues feel about working with him now? Surely this must be a massive hit to his personal authority? Liberty must be in a quandary because his alleged actions clearly don’t represent the values they are trying to portray. There’s stuff on Twitter saying the Austrian side of Red Bull want him gone, while the Thai side are solidly behind him. This seems to be bourne out by the grim sight of him parading round the paddock with his wife and the Thai Red Bull execs. Maybe Horner’s alleged behavior to a subordinate is normal in Thai business culture…

The other question is can Red Bull sack Horner? As he’s CEO is it in their power to do so? He does seem to wield immense power within the team, does that extend to them not being able to fire him?

They didn’t suspend him whilst they ran their investigation. So they didn’t feel it merited that action before it cleared him.

The CEO of a company still reports to the Board. Ultimately they have all the power as the representatives of the owners (shareholders). Though if the majority shareholder is sticking with him, it would indeed be hard to get rid of him.

 

[weepingwillowb]

I was in Chirnside, Berwickshire, one day last night, and saw the Jim Clark memorial there.

 

[DelW]

I find it incredible that Horner has been at the race and is presumably still attending work with all this going on.

The alleged “evidence” is still freely available online. How do his work colleagues feel about working with him now? Surely this must be a massive hit to his personal authority? Liberty must be in a quandary because his alleged actions clearly don’t represent the values they are trying to portray. There’s stuff on Twitter saying the Austrian side of Red Bull want him gone, while the Thai side are solidly behind him. This seems to be bourne out by the grim sight of him parading round the paddock with his wife and the Thai Red Bull execs. Maybe Horner’s alleged behavior to a subordinate is normal in Thai business culture…

The other question is can Red Bull sack Horner? As he’s CEO is it in their power to do so? He does seem to wield immense power within the team, does that extend to them not being able to fire him?

A family friend who works at RB said that staff there are bemused by the accusations, and haven't seen any signs of "controlling behaviour" beyond what would be expected of a team principal, who after all, has to control and direct what the team is doing.

Partial excerpts of WhatsApp messages may have had their meanings or significance changed by selective editing (much like theatre posters used to pick bits out of unfavourable newspaper reviews to give quite a different meaning).

Despite the connection mentioned above, I'm not particularly a Red Bull or Horner fan, but the current accusations do seem potentially suspect in their nature.

 

[75A]

Maybe they're trying to beat R.B. off the track, because they certainly can't on it.
Another boring season ahead

 

[birchesgreen]

I dunno i find the RB dominance era more interesting than the Mercedes one.

Talking of Merc they seem a bit off the pace, maybe Lewis is thinking his Ferrari switch is looking a bit shrewd at the moment.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Maybe they're trying to beat R.B. off the track, because they certainly can't on it.
Another boring season ahead

Each circuit has its own characteristics that suit certain cars more than others so lets see how things play out. Mind you if Perez has found his form then it could well be boring but generally observe the TV footage tends to follow the action not Verstappen circulating around on his own.

 

[75A]

I watched yesterdays boring race, but next weekend my prefered formula starts -Indy Car from St Petersberg and practice, qualifying & the race are all live on Sky, so I'll be a happy boy.

 

[Mogster]

A family friend who works at RB said that staff there are bemused by the accusations, and haven't seen any signs of "controlling behaviour" beyond what would be expected of a team principal, who after all, has to control and direct what the team is doing.

Partial excerpts of WhatsApp messages may have had their meanings or significance changed by selective editing (much like theatre posters used to pick bits out of unfavourable newspaper reviews to give quite a different meaning).

Despite the connection mentioned above, I'm not particularly a Red Bull or Horner fan, but the current accusations do seem potentially suspect in their nature.

The complete set of texts is freely available from the Google drive.

The content certainly would suggest harassment and controlling behavior, but as you say there is no context and the texts have been chosen to support a narrative.

A few points. Horner asks for sex and images when the person repeatedly says no. Horner attempts to control who they speak to. He seemingly changes their working arrangements as a result of their refusal. They say, “I love my job” at one point clearly mindful of the fact that saying no to him can have career implications.

Some of it is grim, I won’t detail that stuff here, it’s freely available to read if people are interested. It’s really not great that Horner is the complainants employer and is behaving in this way. Although as you say, the choice of texts is selective, although what there is looks pretty damning from an employer/employee perspective.

 

[JD2168]

Jos Verstappen has said that Red Bull is in danger of being torn apart if Christian Horner remains in charge.

To me this appears to have become a power battle, it was noticeable that at Bahrain yesterday were the Thai owners of Red Bull who own 51% of the company & posing for pictures with Christian Horner on the grid in front of Max Verstappen’s car.

 

[JamesT]

I dunno i find the RB dominance era more interesting than the Mercedes one.

Talking of Merc they seem a bit off the pace, maybe Lewis is thinking his Ferrari switch is looking a bit shrewd at the moment.

It’s a matter of personal taste which you prefer, but at least with the early stages of the Mercedes era you had the Lewis vs. Nico rivalry making the race winner not a forgone conclusion. Then later on the other teams caught up a bit.

Mercedes said they cocked up the setup this weekend, we’ll see if they can sort it for next weekend. Still plenty of time for Ferrari to show their ability to snatch defeat from victory.

 

[sannox]

It’s a matter of personal taste which you prefer, but at least with the early stages of the Mercedes era you had the Lewis vs. Nico rivalry making the race winner not a forgone conclusion. Then later on the other teams caught up a bit.

Mercedes said they cocked up the setup this weekend, we’ll see if they can sort it for next weekend. Still plenty of time for Ferrari to show their ability to snatch defeat from victory.

I find both eras boring. It seems to me that for whatever reason, be it cost cap / testing restrictions / aero limits etc, teams cant catch up like years ago. Back in 1998, McLaren lapped the field at the first race and nearly the same in 2nd race. 3rd race Ferarri won and we had a fairly good title battle.

That said the grid is far more compact back to front than in recent years - cars being 3 seconds or more off the pace is not there.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Jos Verstappen has said that Red Bull is in danger of being torn apart if Christian Horner remains in charge.

Hes a maverick needs to keep his mouth buttoned given everything they've done for his offspring

 

[Mogster]

2014-2016 the championship goes down to the last race of the season 2 times and ends just 3 races from the end in 2015!

2017- Ferrari lead the WDC with Vettel until R11, Spa.

2018 - Ferrari lead the WDC with Vettel until R10, Silverstone.

2019-2020 were dominant seasons by Mercedes yet there were Mercedes vs Ferrari battles all through 2019 and some Red Bull battles at the end!

2020 ended up like that because of COVID but it was half a season with multiple new exciting circuits like Mugello and some new winners (Gasly, Perez)

2021 we got one of the greatest seasons ever.

There were dominant years 2014-2020 but I don’t feel it was as one sided as many suggest. I do understand that if you dislike who’s winning then it makes seeing anything good about the season more difficult. I really struggled with 1999-2005 with Mr Schumacher and chums…

 

[najaB]

There were dominant years 2014-2020 but I don’t feel it was as one sided as many suggest.

I agree. The "Mercedes years" weren't anything like the last few.

 

[Cloud Strife]

The other question is can Red Bull sack Horner? As he’s CEO is it in their power to do so? He does seem to wield immense power within the team, does that extend to them not being able to fire him?

So, I did some digging on this, and I found out how Red Bull is actually structured as a company.

The company that controls Red Bull (the brand), the Austrian registered Red Bull GmbH, is owned 51% by the Thai Chalerm Yoovidhya and 49% by Mark Mateschitz, the son of Dietrich Mateschitz. So, while at first glance, the Thai side of the operation always had control of the company, in fact, Dietrich Mateschitz had an agreement that gave him 51% of the voting rights in the company.

So, in the UK, Red Bull Racing Ltd (i.e. the company that came from the original Stewart F1 team and operates the F1 team known as Red Bull) has two directors: Horner and Helmut Marko, with Horner as the "director" (i.e. de facto CEO) and Marko as a board member. That company in turn is owned by Red Bull Technology Ltd, which is the parent company for all of Red Bull's motorsport interests in F1. Red Bull Technology has two directors, Horner as the de facto CEO and the finance director Alastair Rew.

Now, Red Bull Technology is 100% owned by Red Bull GmbH, so when Dietrich Mateschitz was alive, he was de facto in control of Red Bull Racing. But in fact, there was no agreement made between Dietrich Mateschitz and the Thai side of the operation for this control to pass to Mark Mateschitz, meaning that the Thai side of the operation is now in control of the motorsport operations.

So, to answer your question: yes, they can fire him. However, Horner has excellent relations with the Thai side of the operation, meaning that even if the Austrians hate him, there's nearly nothing they can do about it. There's a lot of political moves going on within Red Bull GmbH, but as long as he retains the support of Chalerm Yoovidhya, he's untouchable. It's very likely that he sees Horner as a balance to the Austrian corporate types that run the company, especially as the F1 team is a massively important part of the Red Bull brand and business.

The Thais in particular have been said to be taking much more of an active role in the business, meaning that this is really about a power struggle at the top. It's well known that the Austrians want to get control over Red Bull Technology, as the company has been operating very much at arms length from Red Bull GmbH. Dietrich Mateschitz didn't mind or even care, because Horner was delivering, but now with him gone, the knives are out.

But there is something else to all of this. Horner's patron was Bernie Ecclestone, and it would be very hard to remove him without him doing something wrong. Liberty Global won't want him to go anywhere as he's so media friendly, and most F1 team owners would probably agree that Horner is excellent for the sport. This is exactly why Toto and others are getting so frustrated with Red Bull GmbH's handling of the whole situation, because they simply want to compete without this ridiculous situation hanging over them. You'll notice that they haven't said anything bad about Horner, it's all criticism aimed at the parent company.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So, I did some digging on this, and I found out how Red Bull is actually structured as a company.

The company that controls Red Bull (the brand), the Austrian registered Red Bull GmbH, is owned 51% by the Thai Chalerm Yoovidhya and 49% by Mark Mateschitz, the son of Dietrich Mateschitz. So, while at first glance, the Thai side of the operation always had control of the company, in fact, Dietrich Mateschitz had an agreement that gave him 51% of the voting rights in the company.

So, in the UK, Red Bull Racing Ltd (i.e. the company that came from the original Stewart F1 team and operates the F1 team known as Red Bull) has two directors: Horner and Helmut Marko, with Horner as the "director" (i.e. de facto CEO) and Marko as a board member. That company in turn is owned by Red Bull Technology Ltd, which is the parent company for all of Red Bull's motorsport interests in F1. Red Bull Technology has two directors, Horner as the de facto CEO and the finance director Alastair Rew.

Now, Red Bull Technology is 100% owned by Red Bull GmbH, so when Dietrich Mateschitz was alive, he was de facto in control of Red Bull Racing. But in fact, there was no agreement made between Dietrich Mateschitz and the Thai side of the operation for this control to pass to Mark Mateschitz, meaning that the Thai side of the operation is now in control of the motorsport operations.

So, to answer your question: yes, they can fire him. However, Horner has excellent relations with the Thai side of the operation, meaning that even if the Austrians hate him, there's nearly nothing they can do about it. There's a lot of political moves going on within Red Bull GmbH, but as long as he retains the support of Chalerm Yoovidhya, he's untouchable. It's very likely that he sees Horner as a balance to the Austrian corporate types that run the company, especially as the F1 team is a massively important part of the Red Bull brand and business.

The Thais in particular have been said to be taking much more of an active role in the business, meaning that this is really about a power struggle at the top. It's well known that the Austrians want to get control over Red Bull Technology, as the company has been operating very much at arms length from Red Bull GmbH. Dietrich Mateschitz didn't mind or even care, because Horner was delivering, but now with him gone, the knives are out.

But there is something else to all of this. Horner's patron was Bernie Ecclestone, and it would be very hard to remove him without him doing something wrong. Liberty Global won't want him to go anywhere as he's so media friendly, and most F1 team owners would probably agree that Horner is excellent for the sport. This is exactly why Toto and others are getting so frustrated with Red Bull GmbH's handling of the whole situation, because they simply want to compete without this ridiculous situation hanging over them. You'll notice that they haven't said anything bad about Horner, it's all criticism aimed at the parent company.

Thanks for that insight very interesting and helps sets the context sadly lacking in other media articles.

 

[75A]

Thanks for that insight very interesting and helps sets the context sadly lacking in other media articles.

This side of things is more interesting to me than the racing (or rather the lack of).