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Franchising Devolution to Wales
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Chris M
Member
I think what you need to do is have a national system operated nationally. This would consist of long distance and regional trains. Then you should have local networks controlled locally - TfL operating the all the local services in the London area, and similar bodies for other discrete local areas - Glasgow, Merseyrail, Manchester, Valley Lines, West Yorkshire Metro, Tyne and Wear, Birmingham, Nottingham (or Nottingham+Derby?), Bristol-Bath-Weston-super-Mare, Cornwall+Plymouth, etc. that would control all local transport (heavy rail, light rail, buses) although not necessarily operate them all. In some cases these areas would be adjacent, but outside these areas the national operator would run the local services too.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Not quite. If it remains as Wales and Borders the name should be half Welsh and half English.
It's all been done before.
"Wales and the Marches" is a historic entity (run from Ludlow).
Just add what's left of Cheshire, and tell it to run a train service...
from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Wales_and_the_Marches#cite_note-1
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Well for many years there was disagreements whether Monmouth belonged to England or Wales.
Out of the stations ATW serve in Cheshire:
Cheshire West council administrated: Chester, Helsby, Frodsham
Halton council administrated: Runcorn East
Warrington council administrated: Warrington Bank Quay
Cheshire East council administrated: Wilmslow, Crewe
Stockport joins the two central Manchester stations in Greater Manchester. Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows come in to the St Helens borough in Merseyside.
EbbwJunction1
Established Member
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- 1,565
It wasn't just disagreement, it was a fact.
Right up until the Local Government Act 1974, the description was "Wales and Monmouthshire" as, technically, Monmouthshire was part of England but considered to be run as part of Wales.
The decision to change was made at the very end of the debate on the LG Bill. Allegedly, no-one had noticed that the draft Bill didn't address the problem until very late in the discussions. An amendment was introduced in the House of Commons by the government at about 3.00am one morning in front of about half a dozen people, and was passed. It then went to the House of Lords, who "nodded through" the whole Bill.
All this talk of a WAG-run railway is nonsense, as renationalisation or public ownership won't occur.
What could work however is a TFL/Overground-style setup.
Transport for Wales / Gludo Cymru could have two separate directorates - Mainline / Briflein and Metro / Fetro. The mainline directorate would run the express services on the routes, while the Metro would concentrate on commuter runs around Cardiff and the Valleys. Directly publicly accountable
Just because the franchise area overspills the jurisdiction area, doesn't mean that there should be any problems in this setup - after all, LOROL extends into Hertfordshire and away from the influence of the London Mayor / Assembly.
What could work however is a TFL/Overground-style setup.
Transport for Wales / Gludo Cymru could have two separate directorates - Mainline / Briflein and Metro / Fetro. The mainline directorate would run the express services on the routes, while the Metro would concentrate on commuter runs around Cardiff and the Valleys. Directly publicly accountable
Just because the franchise area overspills the jurisdiction area, doesn't mean that there should be any problems in this setup - after all, LOROL extends into Hertfordshire and away from the influence of the London Mayor / Assembly.
Gwenllian2001
Member
What on earth are you talking about? The term 'WAG' became obsolete after the referendum which gave law making powers to Wales. Do you really believe that Carwyn Jones is a 'Nationalist'? Are you under some illusion that
Andrew.R.T Davies and Kirsty Williams are 'Nationalists'? Or are you just having your usual rant? Finally; how do you know that the people who disagree with your narrow minded outlook are 'Nationalists'?
merlodlliw
Established Member
All members at Cardiff Bay are voted in as Members of the Welsh Assembley,the majority party forms the Welsh Government, I don't recall a change,
merlodlliw
Established Member
To me its still Gerald the WAG Express, soon to be seen running from Wrexham to Wembley on Sunday 24th March for the FA Trophy.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Exactly - how come I touch a nerve when I refer to the WAG but you never whinge when "local" members do so?
merlodlliw
Established Member
It is as I stated, but its a bit like for satellite say Sky, for ball pens say biro, names remain stuck in peoples mind, I would guess far worse names have been given to the crowd in Cardiff Bay than WAG. I still like Tiger Bay as a name.
Gwenllian2001
Member
Exactly - how come I touch a nerve when I refer to the WAG but you never whinge when "local" members do so?
I do not 'whinge'. Your use of the term 'Nationalist' is purely speculative and is directed at those with whom you disagree, or those who disagree with you. It does nothing to enhance the discussion about the railways of Wales.
Indeed, this is why I have no objectiosn to WAG, WG or even 'that lot in Cardiff Bay'!
Requeststop
Member
What is the extent of the idea of the devolution to Wales? Does it concern all services that are entirely within Wales and therefore will not effect services connecting to England or otherwise?
Many within Wales seem to be very concerned about connections out of Wales into England. Geographically from the North:
Holyhead-Bangor-Llandudno-Chester to Manchester/Chester/Crewe/London
North Wales to South Wales services via Shrewsbury/Hereford/Newport
Wrexhan-Bidston (services and electrification)
Wrexham-Chester-Shrewsbury to Birmingham/London
Aberystwyth/Cambrian Coast to Birmingham/London
South Wales to Southern England - London Paddington (electrification issues) Bristol/Southampton/Portsmouth/Devon Cornwall
Cross Country to Birmingham/Nottingham etc
Local Services to Gloucester
It seems to me from reading many threads on this site about Welsh railways that people are more concerned about cross border services than internal services!
To what degree would a devolved Wales franchise have influence have on services over the border etc?
One thing I do wonder about. What about services between Wales and Scotland if the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly both decide they'd like to run services between the two nations? How would that be sorted out by the TOC's/NR?
Many within Wales seem to be very concerned about connections out of Wales into England. Geographically from the North:
Holyhead-Bangor-Llandudno-Chester to Manchester/Chester/Crewe/London
North Wales to South Wales services via Shrewsbury/Hereford/Newport
Wrexhan-Bidston (services and electrification)
Wrexham-Chester-Shrewsbury to Birmingham/London
Aberystwyth/Cambrian Coast to Birmingham/London
South Wales to Southern England - London Paddington (electrification issues) Bristol/Southampton/Portsmouth/Devon Cornwall
Cross Country to Birmingham/Nottingham etc
Local Services to Gloucester
It seems to me from reading many threads on this site about Welsh railways that people are more concerned about cross border services than internal services!
To what degree would a devolved Wales franchise have influence have on services over the border etc?
One thing I do wonder about. What about services between Wales and Scotland if the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly both decide they'd like to run services between the two nations? How would that be sorted out by the TOC's/NR?
Gwenllian2001
Member
Presumably any service would operate in the same way as before nationalisation. There were plenty of through and shared workings between railway companies. Let us not forget either that, for most of its existence, British Rail/Railways was not one monolithic organization but was divided into Regions, each of which had its own management. This did not, however, prevent inter working between e.g. The Western and Southern Regions. Trains regularly ran between Cardiff and Brighton and Portsmouth as did trains to and from Newcastle on the Eastern region. Go back further and you will find Barry - Newcastle travelling via the Barry Railway; Great Western; Great Central and North Eastern.
When it comes to railways, there is nothing that hasn't been done before.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
In my humble opinion it is not (or shouldn't be) an English/Welsh devolution thing, even though many on here talk as though it is.
The Wales and Borders franchise, and the NR Wales Route, firmly group the rail network under discussion as essentially "everything west of the A49".
Anything less would not be viable as a network, because of the historical construction and then rationalisation of rail routes leaving predominantly a cross-border operation.
This is different to the the Scottish situation, where Scotrail hardly crosses the border.
Hence it is a joint network.
The current arrangements, which seem to work, are to have the WG managing the network as the lead authority, and to get more powers.
It needs the English local authorities concerned to work with WG to deliver the best deal for the whole network.
In local government terms it would be a "shared service" between Welsh and English authorities, with Wales leading.
I assume the DfT pot (revenue and capital) woud be split, with the WG gaining control over a determined slice for the whole network.
This is not the same as gifting Cardiff Bay with money they can do what they like with within Wales.
It will still have to be within the Railways Act/HLOS/NR/ORR/franchising rules.
So no shifty diversion of funds from rail to roads for instance, or spend in Powys that was intended for Cheshire.
The WG would have more control over spend in Wales perhaps, but not at the expense of English routes.
I could see an all-Welsh network around Cardiff, under 100% WG control.
This might emerge from the Valleys electrification programme.
Even then, there might be complications with GW and the freight operators.
There also seems to be no intention to change the long-distance setup, with GW, WC and XC operation into Wales with DfT oversight rather than WG.
If the discussion descends to an "us" and "them" across the border, we are all sunk.
Today brings news that Hawarden Airport wants to introduce a (subsidised) service to Cardiff.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-21708453
Which reopens the old sores about north-south Wales links and the massive subsidies going into both rail and air services at the moment.
Hopefully there is a sane path through all these strategic transport issues, but I just hope the politicians and civil servants in Cardiff Bay are up to the task.
The Wales and Borders franchise, and the NR Wales Route, firmly group the rail network under discussion as essentially "everything west of the A49".
Anything less would not be viable as a network, because of the historical construction and then rationalisation of rail routes leaving predominantly a cross-border operation.
This is different to the the Scottish situation, where Scotrail hardly crosses the border.
Hence it is a joint network.
The current arrangements, which seem to work, are to have the WG managing the network as the lead authority, and to get more powers.
It needs the English local authorities concerned to work with WG to deliver the best deal for the whole network.
In local government terms it would be a "shared service" between Welsh and English authorities, with Wales leading.
I assume the DfT pot (revenue and capital) woud be split, with the WG gaining control over a determined slice for the whole network.
This is not the same as gifting Cardiff Bay with money they can do what they like with within Wales.
It will still have to be within the Railways Act/HLOS/NR/ORR/franchising rules.
So no shifty diversion of funds from rail to roads for instance, or spend in Powys that was intended for Cheshire.
The WG would have more control over spend in Wales perhaps, but not at the expense of English routes.
I could see an all-Welsh network around Cardiff, under 100% WG control.
This might emerge from the Valleys electrification programme.
Even then, there might be complications with GW and the freight operators.
There also seems to be no intention to change the long-distance setup, with GW, WC and XC operation into Wales with DfT oversight rather than WG.
If the discussion descends to an "us" and "them" across the border, we are all sunk.
Today brings news that Hawarden Airport wants to introduce a (subsidised) service to Cardiff.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-21708453
Which reopens the old sores about north-south Wales links and the massive subsidies going into both rail and air services at the moment.
Hopefully there is a sane path through all these strategic transport issues, but I just hope the politicians and civil servants in Cardiff Bay are up to the task.
It only takes one short (relatively speaking) diversion between Bristol and Gloucester via Severn Tunnel and you have it already. XC have diverted into Newport before (quite recently) and if the desire/will is there, it could be an eventuality.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
They just submit an application to ORR as now, find paths and show that the service is "not primarily abstractive".
Currently, XC would object as they have the rights for such a route.
And then they'd have to fund it - like "Gerald".
Given that once the ICWC franchise is let, the MML is electrified and the electric spine are running there could be a enough class 22x's spare that could run such a service as well as strengthen existing services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'll do it for half a million.
Given government precurement rules it is fairly likely that you bid would be ruled out for some reason or another.
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tbtc
Veteran Member
The most efficient way of doing it would be to pay XC to extend one of their Edinburgh - Bristol services to Cardiff but I really don't know what demand there'd be for a train services between Edinburgh and Cardiff (other than the usual tokenism).
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Do you seriously have any information about it being a tender for a multi-million pound contract? I'm sure some businesses I know would be very interested if that was the case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Would it even be the quickest way of doing it?
Manchester-Devon/Cornwall can be done quicker using Virgin and FGW via London than using XC.
tbtc
Veteran Member
No, an extension of the XC Edinburgh - Bristol service to Cardiff would be quite a slow way of getting from Edinburgh to Cardiff (compared to Carlisle and Crewe, or even London), but the very limited market between the two "capitals" would make any stand-alone service a waste of time - if people are insistent on doing it then a slight extension of an existing XC route would be the most cost efficient way of doing it.
(the market would be busy on the one weekend a year that the rugby is on, of course!)
anthony263
Established Member
I would like to see direct trains again between Swansea/Cardiff & Newcastle which could be popular especially with students if reasonably priced advanced fares were available.
With the electric spine it has been suggested that Crosscountry could run a direct link from Bristol to North West England via Oxford & Bedford which would be faster than traveling via Birmingham New Street.
With the electric spine it has been suggested that Crosscountry could run a direct link from Bristol to North West England via Oxford & Bedford which would be faster than traveling via Birmingham New Street.
No, I don't. I just know that most government contracts require a lot of red tape.
For instance the company I work for was asked if its workforce represented the ethnic mix of the locality that it is in. However, as there are only 9 members of staff it is a bit of a pointless question.
Given according to censes data our locality is 95% white British with the next largest ethnic grouping being white Irish, does that mean that if we were to want to employ someone not from those groups we couldn't as it would mean that our overall ethic mix was wrong!?!?
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Cross Border links are more important end of story, the marches have to be in the franchise due to revenue and railway geography the utmost concern is that the marches have their fare share of the decision making and control over the franchise. Giving the reigns entirely to Cardiff is what many fear as it would mean the Marches were disenfranchised. A mechanism has to be in place to effectively represent the interests of all parts of the franchise.
Gwenllian2001
Member
I don't really understand what point you are trying to make. In what way would the line become 'disenfranchised'? Someone, under the present franchising scheme, has to operate the Marches line. If it was not Wales & Borders then it might simply become an outpost of another franchise, so be careful of what you wish for. The only place served, with a significant population, after crossing the border is Hereford, until Shrewsbury is reached. I think that small towns like Ludlow; Leominster and Church Stretton are well served under the present set up. The importance of the interface with the Cambrian should not be overlooked either.
What might happen if the line was stripped out of the W&B Franchise? Would, say, Cross Country care much about the 3,000 people of Church Stretton? We simply cannot know.
As much as I detest the money go round of the franchising system, the line enjoys an excellent service being managed from Cardiff, the roots of which were planted in the final years of BR.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
What I'm saying is that the "Borders" bit must have the same input/equal footing as Wales. The current franchises reputation between Shrewsbury and the West Midlands is still poor with many comments that the line has been put at the bottom of queue to favor Cardiff. Likewise there's a school of thought that Chester to Manchester has been neglected to favor Wales and Nantwich Town Councils has actively campaigned to be in the Northern franchise and have nothing to do with Cardiff. I'm not saying I agree with these views but because these areas have no effective representation the perception continues.
I doubt people will be dancing in the street in Hereford for joy if an hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service starts- not because north to south Wales trains are bad - but because the market in Hereford to go to Holyhead is very very small yet the market to go direct to Bristol which is neglected is much much larger. There has to be a mechanism that effectively lets all areas of the franchise have there say.
I doubt people will be dancing in the street in Hereford for joy if an hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service starts- not because north to south Wales trains are bad - but because the market in Hereford to go to Holyhead is very very small yet the market to go direct to Bristol which is neglected is much much larger. There has to be a mechanism that effectively lets all areas of the franchise have there say.
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