Frankfurt - no ticket barriers!

[feline1]

Two or three times in recent years I've travelled to Frankfurt (by rail from Brighton, of course) to attend enormous Musikmesse music trade fair.
As part of the admission ticket you get free travel for the duration on the regional and city public transport (!)

One thing that struck me about Frankfurt's public transport (U-bahn, S-bahn, ....) is that there are no ticket barriers!
You can just walk on to their tubes and trams!
Yet people seem to respect them and still pay their fares.
They authorities just trust them!

Could such a system ever work in the UK?

 

[TheEscapist_]

It's the same in Berlin and Vienna, I think it's great that people are trusted! Did see inspectors randomly in both places. Don't think it'll work in the UK. People too often say 'got a ticket and it was never checker, why bother?' Etc.

 

[deltic]

It's the same in Berlin and Vienna, I think it's great that people are trusted! Did see inspectors randomly in both places. Don't think it'll work in the UK. People too often say 'got a ticket and it was never checker, why bother?' Etc.

Fare evasion is common in Germany - recent press reports stated
"Almost 34,000 people were dragged before Berlin's courts for fare-dodging in 2014, as the capital's public transport company cracks down hard on travelling without a ticket." It's estimated that between three and five percent of passengers travel without a ticket on Berlin public transport.

There is a 60Euro fine if caught without a ticket and if caught 3-4 times you get prosecuted.

Also based on press comments there apepar to be the same problems in the UK with people being charged a fine for having the wrong ticket where there is no intention to avoid payment.

 

[CheesyChips]

It was like this in Helsinki, but my friend who grew up there told me that if you get caught during a spot check, they really turn you over!

 

[feline1]

Fare evasion is common in Germany - recent press reports stated
"Almost 34,000 people were dragged before Berlin's courts for fare-dodging in 2014, as the capital's public transport company cracks down hard on travelling without a ticket." It's estimated that between three and five percent of passengers travel without a ticket on Berlin public transport.

It's a while since I've been in Berlin - are there no barriers on the U-bahn there either?

Frankfurt is quite a different city in character to Berlin.
I honestly didn't get the impression that all my fellow passengers there were fare dodging! They seemed a bunch of good citizens!

It was funny the first time I was there, because I just had a A4 sheet I'd printed at home, with my entry ticket for the Musikmesse.
I was trying to ask the tourist info guy at Frankfurt Hauptbanhof how exactly I was meant to use my printout out to get into the U-Bahn - did I swipe it, insert it, or what...? He couldn't understand what on earth I was talking about, and then I finally realised that was cos there WERE no ticket barriers!

 

[TheEscapist_]

It's a while since I've been in Berlin - are there no barriers on the U-bahn there either?

There wasn't a couple years ago, will find out on Sunday though :P Don't think I've heard of anything though. Did read recently SNCF are trying out ticket gates at a few stations for TGV trains I think. Maybe times are changing and people being less honest.

 

[Groningen]

No German railwaystation has barriers; one have to go to the Netherlands. France has only around Paris. Seeing the last TGV depart from Gare de Lyon; there was no one to check the ticket. With the nighttrains from Austerlitz going south; there is SNCF personel at the start of the platform the train is departing from. Know from the past that Marseille has sometimes/allways entrycontrol.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Germany doesn't do barriers, it has always worked either on the principle of on-board checks or of Penalty Fares.

 

[LexyBoy]

A lot of Germany and Eastern Europe has unbarriered transit systems (and long-distance stations of course, barriering these is somewhat of a British thing). It works because of frequent spot checks and significant fines, not because people in these countries are any more honest (moaning about how awful the Brits are being another British thing).

 

[Bletchleyite]

A lot of Germany and Eastern Europe has unbarriered transit systems (and long-distance stations of course, barriering these is somewhat of a British thing). It works because of frequent spot checks and significant fines, not because people in these countries are any more honest (moaning about how awful the Brits are being another British thing).

Indeed, it's said that "Schwarzfahren" (literally "black travelling", but meaning fare dodging) is a national sport.

 

[pemma]

When I was in Munich I made many journeys on the S-Bahn and U-Bahn without any ticket inspections, I even got to Salzburg and back without encountering a ticket inspection. However, on my last day when I went to Donauworth and broke my outward journey at Augsburg I encountered a ticket inspector between Munich and Augsburg and another between Augsburg and Donauworth.

At least with the German system they don't have to worry about what happens when barriers wrongly reject valid tickets.

 

[Quakkerillo]

I was in Berlin the past weekend. I got my tickets checked on S-bahn and U-bahn a total of five times. So they do check more thoroughly, without the need for gates.

 

[ScotGG]

Two or three times in recent years I've travelled to Frankfurt (by rail from Brighton, of course) to attend enormous Musikmesse music trade fair.
As part of the admission ticket you get free travel for the duration on the regional and city public transport (!)

One thing that struck me about Frankfurt's public transport (U-bahn, S-bahn, ....) is that there are no ticket barriers!
You can just walk on to their tubes and trams!
Yet people seem to respect them and still pay their fares.
They authorities just trust them!

Could such a system ever work in the UK?

Well not trusted entirely. They have undercover inspectors and if you mess them about they aren't backward in getting physical. But that seems to work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well not trusted entirely. They have undercover inspectors and if you mess them about they aren't backward in getting physical. But that seems to work.

I remember really hacking one off in Hamburg once. I nearly missed my stop as I wasn't paying attention, so jumped up and dived off at the last second after the plain clothes inspectors had boarded. One guessed I was trying to avoid them and jumped off just as the doors closed, primed to extract DM60 (as I think it was at the time) from his catch. I presented a valid ticket with a grin, and he was left standing on the platform looking like a bit of a twit.

 

[74A]

Don't they do composting on the longer distance trains ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't they do composting on the longer distance trains ?

No. Apart from the non-existence of walk-up off-peak tickets, and apart from there being 3 levels of fares (regional only, IC/EC plus regional, ICE/IC/EC plus regional), the existence of a Railcard for the masses, and the fact that returns are in nearly all instances twice the single, their fares system is broadly similar to ours.

 

[eisenach]

Ah ! The little "old" lady with the knitting on the Frankfurt tram who suddenly leaps up in an unlikely spritely fashion once the doors are closed, snarling: "Fahrkarten, bitte !"
I remember her well from the 80s. I wonder if she's still there !

 

[30907]

Don't they do composting on the longer distance trains ?

Not if you mean validating your ticket at a machine, SNCF style - validators are common enough on urban transport though, and a handful of regional RB routes have on board ticket machines too. But on board ticket checks, complete with train number stamp, are routine on InterCity routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not if you mean validating your ticket at a machine, SNCF style - validators are common enough on urban transport though

Ah yes, I always forget about this because of having spent most of my time in Germany in Hamburg, which doesn't do it.

 

[WestCoast]

I was in Berlin the past weekend. I got my tickets checked on S-bahn and U-bahn a total of five times. So they do check more thoroughly, without the need for gates.

Some cities seem to have more inspections than others. Berlin seems to have a higher rate of inspections; I was checked five or six times in one day last year on the S-Bahn by plain clothed inspectors. You have to also present your ticket to the driver on buses in Berlin (most of them don't seem that bothered though).

In Munich it is completely different. In eight months of fairly intense use, I can recall only two inspections on the U-Bahn by plain clothed staff and a couple of times on the S-Bahn by DB staff in uniforms. Never on a bus or tram and you don't have to present your ticket to the bus driver during the day either.
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Ah ! The little "old" lady with the knitting on the Frankfurt tram who suddenly leaps up in an unlikely spritely fashion once the doors are closed, snarling: "Fahrkarten, bitte !"
I remember her well from the 80s. I wonder if she's still there !

I was on a tram in Nuremberg last year when a couple of older ladies, complete with decoy shopping bags, did exactly that!

 

[TPJ]

Going from Frankfurt Hbf to the Airport my ticket is checked more often than not also there are normally 4 to 5 checking

 

[sarahj]

I've had the Munich bag ladies. One thing to watch out on some public systems is you must 'cancel' your ticket in the E machines once you board. The penalty fares are quite high and you can get one from not having a 'cancelled' ticket. Some services also have a ticket machine on them, so the excuse of running for the tram/train does not work. In Koeln I've bought my day tickets from shops/hotels and the tourist office, then popped it into the E machine. I've also bought a weekly online which was a A4 printout.

I've had a standard ticket check on trains from a RE upwards. I've heard on most you can buy your ticket on board, but the cost is higher.

 

[30907]

I've had a standard ticket check on trains from a RE upwards. I've heard on most you can buy your ticket on board, but the cost is higher.

Still true on IC/ICE trains, but increasingly NOT on Regional ones - often it says "Eintritt nur mit gültiger Fahrausweis" by the door in which case it's potentially straight to a PF.

 

[sarahj]

Still true on IC/ICE trains, but increasingly NOT on Regional ones - often it says "Eintritt nur mit gültiger Fahrausweis" by the door in which case it's potentially straight to a PF.

When I've been on RE or lower, I've often been with a non railway working friend, so we have say a day regio ticket, but I have often wondered how I would use my FIP on these. I would try and seek out staff, but do wonder what they would say. I've explored the ticket machines and found a staff discount, but you have to put your DB number in, so that's no good with a FIP.
Station has no ticket office, or anything, that I've used a few times. (Auggen https://goo.gl/maps/xKS2gTA1rF32 )

 

[fandroid]

I have travelled on many German systems and the rules and checking intensity varies. I got checked twice in Hannover in 24 hours, and have been checked in Berlin several times. Some cities require tickets to be validated, others not. Sometimes it depends on the ticket type! Some cities have ticket machines on the trams & U-Bahns others do not. Frankfurt Airport to Hbf trains certainly do get checked a lot. Checks on IC and ICE trains are common. Some buses only let you on past the driver, others let you board anywhere.

In Warsaw, it's generally barrier-free except on the Metro, where they just seem to leave the gates open anyway!

 

[trainmania100]

Ticket barriers annoy me
Going to the stations for videos or photos, you have to explain why your going on to the platform and often get told not to even with platform ticket
Most times they let me on at Brighton they know me now

 

[rf_ioliver]

It was like this in Helsinki, but my friend who grew up there told me that if you get caught during a spot check, they really turn you over!

Everything except the busses where your ticket is checked. The fine is 80eur for being caught without a ticket. However the ticketing system is simple consisting of 3 very large zones only.

Don't bother appealing a fine here, the ticket inspectors and customer server already know everything...and I really mean everything: gravitational waves, the location of Lord Lucan etc, timing characteristics of SMS messages, how GPS works etc

Ticket barriers were installed at Sörnäinen metro station (might have been Hakaniemi...) for a short trial period years ago. I never saw them in operation and I think they were removed after a short time.

Finns tend to be very law abiding so there's a high degree of trust and respect in the system.

t.

Ian

 

[coppercapped]

In Munich it is completely different. In eight months of fairly intense use, I can recall only two inspections on the U-Bahn by plain clothed staff and a couple of times on the S-Bahn by DB staff in uniforms. Never on a bus or tram and you don't have to present your ticket to the bus driver during the day either.

I used to live in Munich. As season tickets are valid from the 1st of each month the ticket inspections tend to be concentrated in the first week or so of the new month as it's very easy to forget to buy a new season. The haul of people who haven't bought a new ticket can be quite high...!

The S-Bahn is operated by the DB, but the U-Bahn, trams and buses are run by the city. Buses in the suburbs are often run by private companies under contract, but come under the same ticketing rules. Bus drivers don't sell or check tickets - buses have an on-board ticket machine and as the buses have several doors checking by the driver is not possible.

Random ticket inspections can occur on all modes at all times - and having a ticket, but not having cancelled it for that journey, is not a valid excuse. The penalty fare is always levied.

 

[TheEscapist_]

When I was in Berlin, seen a ticket inspector! She had normal clothes on and was so unsuspecting. As soon as the doors closed she just jumped out and said 'tickets!' A couple people walked down the coach and clearly weren't sly about it. Only a few people didn't have tickets though.

 

[sarahj]

I used to live in Munich. As season tickets are valid from the 1st of each month the ticket inspections tend to be concentrated in the first week or so of the new month as it's very easy to forget to buy a new season. The haul of people who haven't bought a new ticket can be quite high...!

The S-Bahn is operated by the DB, but the U-Bahn, trams and buses are run by the city. Buses in the suburbs are often run by private companies under contract, but come under the same ticketing rules. Bus drivers don't sell or check tickets - buses have an on-board ticket machine and as the buses have several doors checking by the driver is not possible.

Random ticket inspections can occur on all modes at all times - and having a ticket, but not having cancelled it for that journey, is not a valid excuse. The penalty fare is always levied.

Thats what gets me sometimes. Folks talk about UK tickets being a pain, but you can buy a 7 day ticket on any day you like. Yet i remember about Munich, and others places such as Cologne, that tickets are valid Mon-Sun only, so if your there EG Thur to Tue you are stuffed.