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Free Travel for Pensioners petition

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Wyvern

Wyvern

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The joke about this is that people between 60 and 65 are using their free travel to go to work.

The age of 60 for all these allowances came about when women retired at 60, but soon it will be 65 the same as the men, or even older.

The free bus pass is like the winter fuel allowance a sop to stop people complaining about the basic pension - even though pension credit boosts it significantly.

Even with a free bus pass I use the train to Derby (half price I admit) because its quicker and more comfortable. However instead of walking into town, I have taken to catching the bus on my free pass because I have emphysema.

Which leads me to ask - do disabled people who are younger than 60 get any public travel concessions?
 
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MidnightFlyer

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You can get a disabled railcard can't you, I dunno. In GMPTE I know, they have a pass for free rail travel withtin its boundaries, not sure whos entitled to it though :D
 
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francisoldfield

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EXACTLY my problem. It should be scrapped and redesigned. It shouldn't be nationwide. it shouldn't be valid until 2300. It shouldn't be valid at weekends (when people who work during the week would like to venture out). and it should NOT be given to those who still work. If you want free bus travel and you want to work, then work for a bus company...

SIGN THE PETITION!!
 
Greenback

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Wyvern said:
The joke about this is that people between 60 and 65 are using their free travel to go to work.

The age of 60 for all these allowances came about when women retired at 60, but soon it will be 65 the same as the men, or even older.

The free bus pass is like the winter fuel allowance a sop to stop people complaining about the basic pension - even though pension credit boosts it significantly.

Even with a free bus pass I use the train to Derby (half price I admit) because its quicker and more comfortable. However instead of walking into town, I have taken to catching the bus on my free pass because I have emphysema.

Which leads me to ask - do disabled people who are younger than 60 get any public travel concessions?
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Yes, they do. At least in Wales, they do, I;m not sure if it's different in England.

If you have mobility difficulties or a medical condition that prevents you form driving, you are able to get free travel on the same basis as over 60's.

francisoldfield said:
EXACTLY my problem. It should be scrapped and redesigned. It shouldn't be nationwide. it shouldn't be valid until 2300. It shouldn't be valid at weekends (when people who work during the week would like to venture out). and it should NOT be given to those who still work. If you want free bus travel and you want to work, then work for a bus company...

SIGN THE PETITION!!
Click to expand...

I am afraid I won't be signing the petition.

There are other concessions and benefits I would withdraw before free bus travel for elderly people. I agree that there are aspects of the scheme that could be improved, bu tin principle I suppor tthe concept of free bus travel for those in the twilight of their lives on the basis that

The state pension in this country is one of the lowest in the EU.
Many people over the age of 70 have put up with very harsh living confitions, including rationing, which we younger people can't really imagine.
It is better for people over a certain age not to drive.
Elderly people often feel isolated and alone. Free travel means they can visit friends and relations independently without worrying about whether they can afford it.

Quite hinestly, I think the notion that the elderly are some sort of inferior species that should not get in the way of people who work is wrong, particularly when most of them have done a lot more work in their lives than younger people have, by leaving school earlier and working longer hours in more physical jobs than a lot of us ever will.
 
Any Permitted

Any Permitted

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I think free bus travel for pensioners is a travesty as it is so the idea of free train travel is just colossally unsustainable and poorly considered.

If the government genuinely can't afford to fund serious things like healthcare and education then we shouldn't even have to think about taking it away. If the money is to be spent in public transport it should go to reducing fares for everyone and improving services not giving elderly people free day trips to Southwold. The buses here in Great Yarmouth have become like a social club for the elderly and I'd say it was a safe bet that 80% of passengers don't pay for their travel.

Yet another one of Labour's vote-winning excesses. I don't see how it could possibly be construed as fair that when I go to work and shop in Norwich to put money into the economy I have to pay £5.80 for the privilege yet the woman next to me who won't be doing either goes for free.
 
Greenback

Greenback

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The government can afford to fund education and healthcare. This govenrment wishes to reduce public spending for ideological reasons as wella s to reduce our deficit.

The Conservatives have always beleived in a small state.

A lot of the arguments I have heard against free bus travel for the elderly seems to be based upon resentment that they have the free time to enjoy 'days out'. Well, I'm sorry, but when you have worked for forty years or more, possibly in a hard, physical job, then I think that you are entitled to a retirement that includes the ability to go out.

Has everyone forgotten the debt that we owe our elders? Have we become so youth obsessed as a society that there is no respect for the rights of older generations any more?
 
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eos

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Under 16's get FREE travel on all bus and train services , including underground in London- How much does that cost TFL?
 
Wyvern

Wyvern

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Greenback said:
If you have mobility difficulties or a medical condition that prevents you form driving, you are able to get free travel on the same basis as over 60's.
Click to expand...

It aint driving I have a problem with. Its walking.
 
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cuccir

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Greenback said:
There are other concessions and benefits I would withdraw before free bus travel for elderly people. I agree that there are aspects of the scheme that could be improved, bu tin principle I suppor tthe concept of free bus travel for those in the twilight of their lives on the basis that

The state pension in this country is one of the lowest in the EU.
Many people over the age of 70 have put up with very harsh living confitions, including rationing, which we younger people can't really imagine.
It is better for people over a certain age not to drive.
Elderly people often feel isolated and alone. Free travel means they can visit friends and relations independently without worrying about whether they can afford it.

...

The government can afford to fund education and healthcare. This govenrment wishes to reduce public spending for ideological reasons as wella s to reduce our deficit.

The Conservatives have always beleived in a small state.

A lot of the arguments I have heard against free bus travel for the elderly seems to be based upon resentment that they have the free time to enjoy 'days out'. Well, I'm sorry, but when you have worked for forty years or more, possibly in a hard, physical job, then I think that you are entitled to a retirement that includes the ability to go out.
Click to expand...

Very well put in both posts. The idea of free bus passes supports those who may no longer have full mobility, have low pensions, and do not have other ways and means of getting about. Buses call round a much wider range of locations than trains, serving suburbs, villages, shops, hospitals and other key facilities that railway stations don't. A bus can get you from home to the supermarket, to your local doctors, even three stops down the road to a community centre. I don't think the free travel is particularly designed for long leisure trips, as the original petition writer wants to make, though getting these free is an unintended consequence.

Now, whether the bus pass should be means tested or not I don't know - it depends if the cost of means testing is less than the money saved by withdrawing the pass from wealthier, which is often not the case for this sort of benefit. But I do think we should keep it, whilst also not agreeing with the idea of free rail travel. Put crudely, if you are mobile enough to get to a train station then unless you live very near one then you are probably relatively active. There's an argument about reduced cost rail for those who are poor, which includes some elderly, but that's another thing all together and I don't particularly see why it should go to the elderly poor and not all. At a push, I'd possibly support a pass giving the elderly free journeys over a certain mileage, or where the ticket is under a certain cost; but I don't think universal free rail travel for the elderly is either necessary or affordable.
 
Greenback

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cuccir said:
Now, whether the bus pass should be means tested or not I don't know - it depends if the cost of means testing is less than the money saved by withdrawing the pass from wealthier, which is often not the case for this sort of benefit. But I do think we should keep it, whilst also not agreeing with the idea of free rail travel. Put crudely, if you are mobile enough to get to a train station then unless you live very near one then you are probably relatively active. There's an argument about reduced cost rail for those who are poor, which includes some elderly, but that's another thing all together and I don't particularly see why it should go to the elderly poor and not all. At a push, I'd possibly support a pass giving the elderly free journeys over a certain mileage, or where the ticket is under a certain cost; but I don't think universal free rail travel for the elderly is either necessary or affordable.
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I agree entirely. I have concerns about means testing. Is it expensive to do, involving even more bureacracy, and you also get arguments over what the elvel of income should be, whether it's right that someone of 68 who has scrimped and saved should be penalised compared to soemone who has frittered their money away on cigarettes etc etc. So I thin it should either be universla bus travel or nothing.

I firmly support the idea of free universal bus travel, but I am not at all certain at what age it should begin. Clearly 60 is too low with the impending increases in state pension age, so the question is, should it remain in line with state pension age? I would say yes, but I could probably be easily persuaded by a good argument in favour of an alternative!

I do think I need a better argument than 'it's not fair, the buses are full of old people', 'it's a Labour idea therefore it's rubbish', 'we can't afford it' and 'why do these old people get everything free' before I change my view on free travel!
 
Wyvern

Wyvern

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I am quite happy with the discount on my railcard. I am not too badly off - I only have myself to support. For some old people it may encourage them to go out and about which is good healthwise.

To withdraw or modify the bus pass would cost a fortune as all the cards would have to be reissued. Possibly the best time would be 2013 when a great many of them expire anyway.
 
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CarterUSM

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I've no problem with free bus travel for the over 60's, though i think a token payment should be made, perhaps 40 single /80p return for local journeys. Concessionary travel makes a real difference to a lot of those on lower incomes. I'm not against means testing, but where the line is, is another story.
 
Any Permitted

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Greenback said:
The government can afford to fund education and healthcare. This govenrment wishes to reduce public spending for ideological reasons as wella s to reduce our deficit.

The Conservatives have always beleived in a small state.

A lot of the arguments I have heard against free bus travel for the elderly seems to be based upon resentment that they have the free time to enjoy 'days out'. Well, I'm sorry, but when you have worked for forty years or more, possibly in a hard, physical job, then I think that you are entitled to a retirement that includes the ability to go out.

Has everyone forgotten the debt that we owe our elders? Have we become so youth obsessed as a society that there is no respect for the rights of older generations any more?
Click to expand...

I am a small-state libertarian so yeah, I agree with them. Even if it is partially ideological there's no way any logical person could sit there with a huge deficit in their finances and say that giving old people free bus travel is a priority.

I think this romantic idea that all old people worked in physical, hard jobs and spent their lives digging ditches so we can have clean water is something of a fallacy. Whilst I love my grandparents dearly they were a telephone switchboard operator, a stenographer, a lecturer and an engineer, not very physically taxing jobs and they were sensible and saved up a private pension so they don't need the free travel yet we give it to them anyway because it's not mean's tested. If you depend on a state pension then perhaps the money saved from scrapping the scheme could go to topping that up, I would rather see everyone have a private pension (as I do) but obviously we're stuck with what we've got.

The debt we owe our elders? Hm. I don't see why we owe elderly people anything past our basic commitment to honour their public pension. They worked and lived just like we do so why do we owe them something purely for their existence. I come from today's "yoof" and to be honest we've been totally sold up the creek by the baby boomers. They didn't save enough so we'll be funding their pensions and care costs and they'll be living even longer. I can't say our generation is going to be any different but I certainly don't feel like I owe them anything.

To think that anyone has a fundamental "right" to free travel is hilarious. We don't have a right to receive anything from the government, we have a right to various freedoms and liberties but we are not entitled to anything. The fact is if we became a Libertarian anarchy tomorrow with no state no rights would be lost, only gained. It's nice that the government gives people things for free, good for them but this culture of entitlement is what landed us with almost £1 trillion of debt. If every single working person in this country paid their wages into the pot for 1 and a half years we'd still not be able to cover it. THe fact is that every single man, woman and child in this country has been given around £16,000 more stuff by the government than it can afford.
 
Wyvern

Wyvern

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It aint exactly an ideal way to get anywhere though is it?

You can only use stage route buses remember.
 
Greenback

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Any Permitted said:
I am a small-state libertarian so yeah, I agree with them. Even if it is partially ideological there's no way any logical person could sit there with a huge deficit in their finances and say that giving old people free bus travel is a priority.

I think this romantic idea that all old people worked in physical, hard jobs and spent their lives digging ditches so we can have clean water is something of a fallacy. Whilst I love my grandparents dearly they were a telephone switchboard operator, a stenographer, a lecturer and an engineer, not very physically taxing jobs and they were sensible and saved up a private pension so they don't need the free travel yet we give it to them anyway because it's not mean's tested. If you depend on a state pension then perhaps the money saved from scrapping the scheme could go to topping that up, I would rather see everyone have a private pension (as I do) but obviously we're stuck with what we've got.

The debt we owe our elders? Hm. I don't see why we owe elderly people anything past our basic commitment to honour their public pension. They worked and lived just like we do so why do we owe them something purely for their existence. I come from today's "yoof" and to be honest we've been totally sold up the creek by the baby boomers. They didn't save enough so we'll be funding their pensions and care costs and they'll be living even longer. I can't say our generation is going to be any different but I certainly don't feel like I owe them anything.

To think that anyone has a fundamental "right" to free travel is hilarious. We don't have a right to receive anything from the government, we have a right to various freedoms and liberties but we are not entitled to anything. The fact is if we became a Libertarian anarchy tomorrow with no state no rights would be lost, only gained. It's nice that the government gives people things for free, good for them but this culture of entitlement is what landed us with almost £1 trillion of debt. If every single working person in this country paid their wages into the pot for 1 and a half years we'd still not be able to cover it. THe fact is that every single man, woman and child in this country has been given around £16,000 more stuff by the government than it can afford.
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What a sad post. I don't refer to your opinions, but the lack of compassion, and inability to see beyond the obivous, that lie behind them.

Nowhere have I said that all pensioners worked in hard physical jobs. The fact is that the youth of today will remain in full time learning for a lot longer than the majority of our forefathers, and have access to many more labour saving devices than someone born 65 years ago had at the same stage in their lives. It is nice that we, as a society can give soemthing back to all older people, no matter what occupation they were in.

Neither have a said that old people have a fundamental right to free travel. I was referring in a general way to the lack of respect that is implied in some of the posts, most notably the idea that they should not be alowed out on Saturdays and Sundays when working people want to travel.

Without getting into a heated debate, can you honestly not think of any handout or benefit that is less worthy than free bus travel for pensioners?
So the baby boomers haven't aved enough have they? What about those who lost their savings and pensions through fraud? Or by companies raiding the pension pot before going bust? those whose savings were damaged by rampant inflation int eh 1970's and 1980's? Your argument in this area is very simplistic I'm afraid.

As you say you come from today's yoof, then I can but hope that your ideas will mature in the coming years, and the natural selfishness of the young will become tempered by greater awareness, understanding, knowledge and compassion.
 
Any Permitted

Any Permitted

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Greenback said:
What a sad post. I don't refer to your opinions, but the lack of compassion, and inability to see beyond the obivous, that lie behind them.

Nowhere have I said that all pensioners worked in hard physical jobs. The fact is that the youth of today will remain in full time learning for a lot longer than the majority of our forefathers, and have access to many more labour saving devices than someone born 65 years ago had at the same stage in their lives. It is nice that we, as a society can give soemthing back to all older people, no matter what occupation they were in.

Neither have a said that old people have a fundamental right to free travel. I was referring in a general way to the lack of respect that is implied in some of the posts, most notably the idea that they should not be alowed out on Saturdays and Sundays when working people want to travel.

Without getting into a heated debate, can you honestly not think of any handout or benefit that is less worthy than free bus travel for pensioners?
So the baby boomers haven't aved enough have they? What about those who lost their savings and pensions through fraud? Or by companies raiding the pension pot before going bust? those whose savings were damaged by rampant inflation int eh 1970's and 1980's? Your argument in this area is very simplistic I'm afraid.

As you say you come from today's yoof, then I can but hope that your ideas will mature in the coming years, and the natural selfishness of the young will become tempered by greater awareness, understanding, knowledge and compassion.
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I can appreciate that a lot of people will disagree with my views so I don't mind that at all.

I just don't see how old-people have earned any more respect than young people by virtue of living a longer life. I don't see why any elderly person who's worked their whole life deserves any more/less respect than a young person who will work their whole lives. On an individual basis I would have a great deal of respect for someone who worked doing something worthy or important or difficult but you can't generalise that to the whole generation and, again, I'd have the same amount of respect for someone who is doing something worthy, important or hard right now. What you're actually saying is that young people deserve less respect because they're not old which is a very odd thing to say.

I can think of so many handouts and benefits and services I'd like to cut and privatise to be honest and this is one of the worst offenders. If the government put me in charge of the spending review 'swingeing' wouldn't go far enough but that's just my politics it's not because I resent the elderly or the poor I just think people should stand on their own two feet and that the private sector is more efficient than the public one.

I do agree about pensions which is why I support a reasonable state pension for those who have had their pensions funds corrupted. I would like to see everyone save for a private pension with a provider like Aviva or Axa and then they would be in a more self-sufficient and sustainable position to afford public transport (or whatever else they choose to spend their money on)

To be honest that last paragraph of your post is so terribly patronising and condescending I don't have the effort in me to berate it, Though I will say I think it's beautifully ironic that you think the young are 'naturally selfish'.

ps. I just wanted to say I do have a great deal of respect for you, not because of your age but because of the useful posts you make and the fact you seem like a genuinely decent person. I don't want you to think this is a personal attack or anything of that nature I'm just arguing about politics and culture here, I don't mind your view at all, it's perfectly reasonable for you to hold it I just disagree with it. No offence intended on a personal level.
 
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