Front End Double Doors

[Karl]

After viewing Neil Dimmer's excellent photos, I was reminded of a question I've always been meaning to ask.

After looking at this photo of a class 28 Metro Vic...
http://railway-photography.smugmug.com/Class21-28/Class-28/16807239_8qMK53#!i=1744592131&k=7fgZFqc

... I wondered if anyone could let me know the purpose of the double doors on early BR classes. From memory these doors were included on various classes from the 1960s. Classes 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 31, 37, 40 and others.

In later years as the locos went through overhauls etc the doors were either welded shut or plated over completely.

So, what was their original purpose?

Cheers!

 

[150222]

As bonnets?

 

[Anon Mouse]

to allow driver (and secondman) access from one loco to the other if two (or more) locos were operating in multiple.

 

[sprinterguy]

They allowed crew access from cab to cab of adjoining locomotives. I don't think that they ever saw much use though (Anon Mouse got there first!).

 

[ainsworth74]

They allowed crew access from cab to cab of adjoining locomotives. I don't think that they ever saw much use though (Anon Mouse got there first!).

Indeed they pretty much just ensured that the cab was always cold/wet from my understanding! One of those nice ideas in concept but in the real world not really useful/good.

 

[Karl]

Thanks for clearing that up chaps. It must have been fun trying to make the leap between cabs whilst the locos were in motion

 

[Electrostar]

Was it ever possible to jump from the loco into a carriage corridor or was that the sort of thing reserved for Hollywood movies?

 

[tempests1]

I some cases there was also a toilet with bonnet locos such as the class 37 & 40
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Was it ever possible to jump from the loco into a carriage corridor or was that the sort of thing reserved for Hollywood movies?

Puts me in mind of the A4 LNER Steam locos that had a corridor connection in the tender

 

[driver9000]

Thanks for clearing that up chaps. It must have been fun trying to make the leap between cabs whilst the locos were in motion

I'm not sure if it applied to all connecting door locomotives but I have seen a photograph of the doors open with a coaching stock style connection across the gap with the doors folded back.

A lot of BR early locomotives had a urinal in the engine room.

 

[table38]

A lot of BR early locomotives had a urinal in the engine room.

Class 40's had a toilet in the "No.2" end

On double-headed passenger services, I was told that it was the secondman's job to check the steam heating boiler, which would be in the second loco, hence the access doors.

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm not sure if it applied to all connecting door locomotives but I have seen a photograph of the doors open with a coaching stock style connection across the gap with the doors folded back.

The photo linked at the top of this thread shows a carriage style corridor connection poking out of the open doors, so it looks like it might have been a regular feature. Even in the relatively "safety relaxed" 1950s I can't imagine that BR would have advocated crews leaping across the drawgear between locos.

 

[Old Timer]

Thanks for clearing that up chaps. It must have been fun trying to make the leap between cabs whilst the locos were in motion

The frontal doors were intended to allow train crews to transfer from the train to the locomotive whilst running on long fast non-stop runs, as in the Gresley A4s for example - The BTC film The Elizabethan refers.

They were not intended to be used between locomotives as originally locomotives were not fitted with multiple unit working controls and so could not run in multiple.

 

[jopsuk]

Surely though on the diesels the different heigh connectors would mean that there'd be one hell of a draft in the front carriage when you opened the door to let someone through? The tender corridor connectors on the steam locos were full height

 

[bgstrowger]

There was a proposal to fit doors to the Deltics to allow non-stop crew changes. There's a diagram of two proposed gangway designs on Page 34 of Brian Webb's book on the Deltics.

 

[sprinterguy]

There was a proposal to fit doors to the Deltics to allow non-stop crew changes. There's a diagram of two proposed gangway designs on Page 34 of Brian Webb's book on the Deltics.

Split box Deltic, anyone:
http://www.fictitiousliveries.co.uk/photo.php?55023split.jpg

 

[Spagnoletti]

Here's a pic of 2 27s with the corridor connection set up between them.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24041160@N02/3458453051/

 

[table38]

Heh, I know I've got a dirty mind, but it does look like they are, err... well, you know

 

[lewisf]

Heh, I know I've got a dirty mind, but it does look like they are, err... well, you know

Kissing? lol

 

[dieselbashdave]

It really does look like they are engaged in tonsil (or coupler!) tennis lol

 

[WL113]

Very rare photo that...

 

[Peter Sarf]

Ah, the romance of the railways .

 

[Electrostar]

I've just realised that in all my years of interest in the railways I've never once thought about corridor connections between diesels let alone seen a picture. I don't know what I thought the doors were for! Great thread.

 

[ukrob]

Indeed a rare picture

 

[D6975]

The frontal doors were intended to allow train crews to transfer from the train to the locomotive whilst running on long fast non-stop runs, as in the Gresley A4s for example - The BTC film The Elizabethan refers.

They were not intended to be used between locomotives as originally locomotives were not fitted with multiple unit working controls and so could not run in multiple.

Simply not true, they were intended solely for use between locos and indeed in many cases were not even capable of being coupled up to a coach because of the different height/dimensions. They are totally different from the connections on corridor tenders on steam locos.

Ps I've seen photos of them in use on several classes, 27, 28, 10000/1 spring to mind.

 

[Karl]

Here's a pic of 2 27s with the corridor connection set up between them.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24041160@N02/3458453051/

Excellent photo. Thanks for the link. It's the only time I've ever seen the doors in use.

 

[colchesterken]

Never seen a photo like that
I did not know they had connections
I thought you just opened the doors and walked accross..not engaged brain! it would be dangerous to scramble between locos on the move
learned something today
Thanks a lot

 

[LE Greys]

Here's a pic of 2 27s with the corridor connection set up between them.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24041160@N02/3458453051/

Certainly unusual, and very interesting.

Surely the biggest problem with changing crews wouldn't have been moving between locos, it would have been getting through the noisy and probably dangerous engine room. Steam locos have a cab at the back, which is nice and convenient for corridor tenders. With diesels, you have to get right to the front. I've heard of it happening in America, but that usually involves an internal corridor, something our loading gauge does not give the space for. It's not even possible with an HST.

 

[Rugd1022]

Certainly unusual, and very interesting.

Surely the biggest problem with changing crews wouldn't have been moving between locos, it would have been getting through the noisy and probably dangerous engine room. Steam locos have a cab at the back, which is nice and convenient for corridor tenders. With diesels, you have to get right to the front. I've heard of it happening in America, but that usually involves an internal corridor, something our loading gauge does not give the space for. It's not even possible with an HST.

It certainly is possible with an HST! During the brief we received for conducting FGW HSTs over the Chiltern last year, we were shown through the engine room and had no problems at all. Likewise all other locos have through corridors, although it's only possible to walk through one side of a 66.

On some of the older BR locos I worked on it was occasionally necessary to walk through to the back can if we were using the hotplate / cooker whilst on the move, if the one in the leading cab was out of action.

 

[Spagnoletti]

Class 26's (and I expect 27's but I've never been in one) are actually rather roomy in the engine room. As long as you're not wearing something that might get sucked into the blowers it's quite safe to change ends by walking through there, and I frequently do. Larger engined locos are a bit more cramped and it's usually quicker to get out and walk round.

 

[LE Greys]

Class 26's (and I expect 27's but I've never been in one) are actually rather roomy in the engine room. As long as you're not wearing something that might get sucked into the blowers it's quite safe to change ends by walking through there, and I frequently do. Larger engined locos are a bit more cramped and it's usually quicker to get out and walk round.

Doesn't it harm your ears (mind you, I can't stant too close to an idling bus)?