Further RMT strike action on SWR [latest action suspended]

[Brissle Girl]

What's the detail of the agreement with ASLEF around DCO? Previous DCO agreements said a guard had to be rostered for every service but if one wasnt available the service would still run.

As I understand it a guard has to be present, which would appear consistent with the penultimate bullet point in the screenshot a few posts up.

I’m guessing the principal of having driver opening and closing doors is the key thing at this stage, particularly as it gets the dwell time benefits that the company has insisted is the main reason for making the change (as well described in London Reconnections).

 

[pompeyfan]

As I understand it a guard has to be present, which would appear consistent with the penultimate bullet point in the screenshot a few posts up.

I’m guessing the principal of having driver opening and closing doors is the key thing at this stage, particularly as it gets the dwell time benefits that the company has insisted is the main reason for making the change (as well described in London Reconnections).

the desiros don’t need to reduce their dwell time though?

 

[swt_passenger]

the desiros don’t need to reduce their dwell time though?

Isn’t there still going to be a certain number of 450s operating on the Windsor side on routes that will be predominantly 701 operated? Perhaps they would cause dwell time issues?

 

[pompeyfan]

Isn’t there still going to be a certain number of 450s operating on the Windsor side on routes that will be predominantly 701 operated? Perhaps they would cause dwell time issues?

I suppose you have a point, however didn’t the company say that there would be no change to operation for outer (Fratton, Basingstoke, Northam, Bournemouth, Salisbury, Yeovil and Weymouth) crew?

 

[swt_passenger]

I suppose you have a point, however didn’t the company say that there would be no change to operation for outer (Fratton, Basingstoke, Northam, Bournemouth, Salisbury, Yeovil and Weymouth) crew?

Yes, I was thinking only of possible provision of train hardware mods, rather than exactly where it might be used, or who by. I suppose they could even have a sub fleet for inner suburban & Windsors, possibly with First Class removed again?

It’s never really been made clear exactly which routes will still see 450s of course, maybe someone is more clued up on the end state diagramming.

But we’re probably drifting away from the basic topic now. In hindsight perhaps you should have started a new thread entirely, because although it will clearly affect the RMT members, it’s really a separate ASLEF thing at this stage?

 

[43066]

But we’re probably drifting away from the basic topic now. In hindsight perhaps you should have started a new thread entirely, because although it will clearly affect the RMT members, it’s really a separate ASLEF thing at this stage?

It probably makes sense to discuss all aspects on this thread, as it’s really a four way dispute (ASLEF, RMT, SWR, DFT).

Edit: and shouldn’t your username now be “swr_passenger”?

 

[pompeyfan]

It probably makes sense to discuss all aspects on this thread, as it’s really a four way dispute (ASLEF, RMT, SWR, DFT).

Edit: and shouldn’t your username now be “swr_passenger”?

I agree, it’s discussion about the operation of trains which involves all parties.

 

[Brissle Girl]

A further outburst from the RMT today

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-slams-damaging-approach-from-south-western-railway/

RMT slams damaging and divisive approach to industrial relations from South Western Railway in midst of coronavirus emergency

Rail union RMT today slammed rail operator South Western Railway for adopting a deliberately provocative, damaging and divisive approach aimed at pitting worker against worker when maximum unity at a time of national emergency in the midst of the coronavirus crisis is absolutely essential.

RMT is angry at moves ‎to drive through new operational and pay agreements for traincrew that sideline the biggest rail union, breach previous commitments, and roadblock negotiations aimed at settling the long running dispute over guards ‎and safety on SWR trains.... conts

Not sure what exactly has happened to prompt this press release, but I'm presuming that SWR might consider a period of very low usage an opportune moment to push forward its position, particularly now its settled with ASLEF.

 

[theironroad]

A further outburst from the RMT today

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-slams-damaging-approach-from-south-western-railway/

RMT slams damaging and divisive approach to industrial relations from South Western Railway in midst of coronavirus emergency

Rail union RMT today slammed rail operator South Western Railway for adopting a deliberately provocative, damaging and divisive approach aimed at pitting worker against worker when maximum unity at a time of national emergency in the midst of the coronavirus crisis is absolutely essential.

RMT is angry at moves ‎to drive through new operational and pay agreements for traincrew that sideline the biggest rail union, breach previous commitments, and roadblock negotiations aimed at settling the long running dispute over guards ‎and safety on SWR trains.... conts

Not sure what exactly has happened to prompt this press release, but I'm presuming that SWR might consider a period of very low usage an opportune moment to push forward its position, particularly now its settled with ASLEF.

I'd be interested to know what has caused the need to for this press release today.

Has the company done something recently to provoke it ?

For sake of clarity and accuracy while aslef and swr have concluded negotiations at aslef head office has recommended it off approval, the ballot of drivers is still underway and doesn't conclude until about 22 April. However, I'd be pretty surprised if was rejected by drivers.

Something must have happened, as all rail unions, all tocs and the rdg have agreed a set of principles this week to deal with COVID19 and operational requirements. For the RMT head office to issue this today seems quite bizarre unless there has been some momentous action on SWR's part.

 

[Kite159]

Maybe news of the ASLEF deal has only just reached RMT towers and they are unhappy with it because they weren't invited to the meeting.

Wouldn't be the first time ASLEF has thrown the RMT under the bus in terms of making a better deal

 

[samuelmorris]

Maybe news of the ASLEF deal has only just reached RMT towers and they are unhappy with it because they weren't invited to the meeting.

Wouldn't be the first time ASLEF has thrown the RMT under the bus in terms of making a better deal

If it's what's needed to make any progress with the impasse, I can't say I blame them. Perhaps their view is that this has gone on long enough for them to feel the DfT/TOC will never back down and thus better to ensure that at least the drivers, who will absolutely still be needed, are catered for, no matter what the outcome, rather than waiting any longer to see what may happen with the guards.

 

[Bigfoot]

Maybe news of the ASLEF deal has only just reached RMT towers and they are unhappy with it because they weren't invited to the meeting.

Wouldn't be the first time ASLEF has thrown the RMT under the bus in terms of making a better deal

I very much doubt the offer took more than an hour to make it to the rmt after it was released to the drivers.

 

[moley]

Ironic, given that RMT css as led off their strike action as talks were progressing. Admittedly, we never heard any out come from those most recent talks.

 

[Brissle Girl]

It’s a week now since it was reported that the ASLEF ballot would be closed. Has there been any news on the outcome? Normally I would say it can’t take that longer to count a few ballot papers but I presume things might be held up due to postal delays.

 

[pompeyfan]

Ballot was returned as an outstanding yes, I haven’t got the exact figures but high 80% turn out, of which high 80% said yes. RMT to regroup and assess, they feel like the carpet has very much been pulled from under their feet by ASLEF. ASLEF believe they’ve saved the day, where as RMT are claiming poor trade unionism for discussing another unions members roles without them in the room. On a local level the atmosphere isn’t too bad but higher up the chain RMT are very much unhappy with ASLEF.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Ballot was returned as an outstanding yes, I haven’t got the exact figures but high 80% turn out, of which high 80% said yes. RMT to regroup and assess, they feel like the carpet has very much been pulled from under their feet by ASLEF. ASLEF believe they’ve saved the day, where as RMT are claiming poor trade unionism for discussing another unions members roles without them in the room. On a local level the atmosphere isn’t too bad but higher up the chain RMT are very much unhappy with ASLEF.

Thank you for the update.

In terms of RMT strategy going forward, and the possibility of further strikes, I can't imagine, in the current environment, that there will be much public sympathy for guards complaining about not having to do the doors anymore. Firstly, on the grounds that they've still got a secure job, and secondly that they can hardly complain about being in the front line in the current crisis having fought for the last two years to stay on the trains in the first instance.

There must be a temptation at DfT towers to impose a unilateral change of conditions now and try and resolve the issue once and for all. How many guards would run the risk of not signing new terms now and risk having their employment terminated in the current environment? It would undoubtedly be an aggressive approach, but much less risky in terms of outcome and disruption than under normal conditions.

 

[pompeyfan]

Thank you for the update.

In terms of RMT strategy going forward, and the possibility of further strikes, I can't imagine, in the current environment, that there will be much public sympathy for guards complaining about not having to do the doors anymore. Firstly, on the grounds that they've still got a secure job, and secondly that they can hardly complain about being in the front line in the current crisis having fought for the last two years to stay on the trains in the first instance.

There must be a temptation at DfT towers to impose a unilateral change of conditions now and try and resolve the issue once and for all. How many guards would run the risk of not signing new terms now and risk having their employment terminated in the current environment? It would undoubtedly be an aggressive approach, but much less risky in terms of outcome and disruption than under normal conditions.

i completely disagree with that approach, but I could see it being very popular for those that want to see operational duties removed from the guards grade for the reasons you state. in the current climate there would be no sympathy but I’d also be very concerned this is the thin edge of the wedge and ultimately would be a CSA job with the pay that goes with it.

admittedly however, the doom mongers (myself included) have so far been proved to be incorrect about the rumoured decrease in T&Cs and remuneration for Southerns OBS. I’m led to believe they’re on effectively £18ph once you work out their annual salary divided by average weekly hours. Does that compare similarly to Scotrail’s TTE?

 

[Robertj21a]

i completely disagree with that approach, but I could see it being very popular for those that want to see operational duties removed from the guards grade for the reasons you state. in the current climate there would be no sympathy but I’d also be very concerned this is the thin edge of the wedge and ultimately would be a CSA job with the pay that goes with it.

admittedly however, the doom mongers (myself included) have so far been proved to be incorrect about the rumoured decrease in T&Cs and remuneration for Southerns OBS. I’m led to believe they’re on effectively £18ph once you work out their annual salary divided by average weekly hours. Does that compare similarly to Scotrail’s TTE?

 

[Robertj21a]

I think it may work out at a bit more than £18 p h. Isn't it high time that we just accepted the Southern OBS approach as the best way forward ?

 

[virgintrain1]

Thank you for the update.

In terms of RMT strategy going forward, and the possibility of further strikes, I can't imagine, in the current environment, that there will be much public sympathy for guards complaining about not having to do the doors anymore. Firstly, on the grounds that they've still got a secure job, and secondly that they can hardly complain about being in the front line in the current crisis having fought for the last two years to stay on the trains in the first instance.

There must be a temptation at DfT towers to impose a unilateral change of conditions now and try and resolve the issue once and for all. How many guards would run the risk of not signing new terms now and risk having their employment terminated in the current environment? It would undoubtedly be an aggressive approach, but much less risky in terms of outcome and disruption than under normal conditions.

Great, so we work through the pandemic then as a thank you we get done over! Great way to up morel!

 

[pompeyfan]

I think it may work out at a bit more than £18 p h. Isn't it high time that we just accepted the Southern OBS approach as the best way forward ?

I agree the Southern OBS model is a good approach on lines where dwell time is an important issue, (even though I regularly get in and out of Clapham quicker than Southern services), but I don’t see the point of changing for the sake of change. The rest of the discussion has been done until the cows came home. I disagree with your opinion but accept I’m UNlikely to persuade you otherwise.

 

[ainsworth74]

Let's not get drawn back down into the swamp of DOO discussion. People's views are entrenched and unlikely to change just because others don't like them. There's nothing to be gained by going backwards and forwards over it again and again other than bad feeling and threads which just become a waste of everyone's time. So I'd would urge, strongly, that members keep that in mind in their posts on this thread.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Agree that discussion has been had many times. Besides, I think it's clear what SWR expect guards to do and not to do going forward - the question is more how tactically it (and presumably led by the government) moves forward once the ASLEF deal is confirmed.

 

[Twotwo]

Very good deal for the drivers at swr. They probably have the most intense network then any other toc. And not forgetting the variety of traction they drive and and the many routes most of the drivers sign.

I would like to know weather their conditions and rosters etc will remain the same?

 

[pompeyfan]

Very good deal for the drivers at swr. They probably have the most intense network then any other toc. And not forgetting the variety of traction they drive and and the many routes most of the drivers sign.

I would like to know weather their conditions and rosters etc will remain the same?

this thread may help more

SWR ASLEF preparing for dispute over pay

ASLEF are preparing for industrial action over the stall in pay negotiations by giving SWR an ultimatum. It seems work to rule has unofficially been implemented with several drivers withdrawing rest day work over the weekend. (I’m unfortunately unable to copy the text from the letter as it’s a...

www.railforums.co.uk

I believe that drivers will expected to be more flexible, at the moment start time of shifts can be moved by up to 2 hours with 36 hours notice, this will probably increase, they also lose their attendance bonus, I’m sure ASLEF drivers may be along shortly to clarify. There was a 4 page summary and 17 page detailed document.

Paul Clifton on Twitter

“Here is the agreement between @SW_Help drivers and @ASLEFunion for a 29% pay rise”

twitter.com

The tweet from Paul Clifton also includes some further changes to T&Cs.

 

[DennisM]

Ballot was returned as an outstanding yes, I haven’t got the exact figures but high 80% turn out, of which high 80% said yes. RMT to regroup and assess, they feel like the carpet has very much been pulled from under their feet by ASLEF. ASLEF believe they’ve saved the day, where as RMT are claiming poor trade unionism for discussing another unions members roles without them in the room. On a local level the atmosphere isn’t too bad but higher up the chain RMT are very much unhappy with ASLEF.

The RMT made quite a lot of noise about it being ‘not about the doors’ at the start of the industrial action, when it was widely perceived by the press to be the main issue they were striking over.
Now this ASLEF deal is giving the guards everything but the doors, it’d be rather ironic for them to now decide it was about the doors after all.

Of course it isn’t the no change whatsoever that the RMT leadership we’re aiming for, but they’ve had 2 and a half years of little to no progress. Had this deal not been reached the coming months would’ve seen the 701s arriving and SWR ultimately being forced to either give in to all demands, or plough on regardless (and guardless) and I think the chances of them giving in after all this time would’ve been slim to none.

The only debate to be had IMHO is on how far ASLEF could (or should?) have intervened further, and whether it would’ve been appropriate, after all ASLEF exists to represent its members and their interests. Should they have taken their members out on strike, losing them money and dragging them into an already long running dispute for the sake of the door operation that the strike wasn’t even about?
On the other hand ASLEF achieved a long overdue pay rise for it’s members whilst guaranteeing a safety critical guard on every train in passenger service, all of this written into drivers contracts where it had previously stated DOO as the normal method of operation.

 

[theironroad]

ASLEF is a craft trade union only open to train drivers and those in the line of promotion to driver, which in current parlance really only covers trainee drivers.

ASLEF members pay their dues to have their reps at all levels to represent them, not other grades.

While most ASLEF members are very sympathetic to other grades and trade unions, ASLEF negotiators are tasked with representing and achieving pay and terms and conditions for THEIR members not members of other trade unions.

 

[theking]

Aslef have played an absolute blinder with that pay deal 72k and to still have a guard absolute madness.

That toc is going to bleed money on wages, not sure how much a guard is on but that's got to be at least £110,000.00 worth of staff per train.

 

[ComUtoR]

ASLEF members pay their dues to have their reps at all levels to represent them, not other grades.

While most ASLEF members are very sympathetic to other grades and trade unions, ASLEF negotiators are tasked with representing and achieving pay and terms and conditions for THEIR members not members of other trade unions.

When will ASLEF realise that their insular nature and approach does have a impact on other grades and does more to create division than unite.

 

[ComUtoR]

Aslef have played an absolute blinder with that pay deal 72k and to still have a guard absolute madness.

It is a good deal but a little double edged.

The Basic Salary will be £67k in 2022 but to achieve the £72k you state you have to be at a London depot, includes their top rate London weighting (Regional Allowance) and a retention bonus.

I'd be interested to see what the impact of a retention rate is in the long term.