Further RMT strike action on SWR [latest action suspended]

[pompeyfan]

This may be off topic (apologies if it is) but how long can the RMT afford to go on? I thought the RMT had borrowed money from other unions to pay strike pay but that cannot go on, can it? Presumably there isn't strike pay for one day stoppages but will those bring management to the table after a long one has not? SWR weathered a long strike and it seems likely to manage through further strikes with a similar plan. I suppose these strikes cost SWR huge amounts too? Will we see a Southern DOO imposed solution when new rolling stock is in traffic?

RMT members will be unlikely to receive hardship pay, as there was a general grades pay-rise with an amount of back pay attached that is due to be received in marchs pay packets.

im Genuinely not sure when this will end, as if you believe SWR, they won’t run 701s without a guard. That means potentially any guards strike with 701s in traffic could still have the same effect, as ASLEF is no closer to clearing up how binding their DOO-P part of the contract from 20+ years ago is.

 

[Monty]

when you say £1400 from the union, I thought it was just a one off payment of £750 in a cheque, with the one weeks wage topping it up. I quite rightly understand it’s nothing to do with me what other people are receiving but that is very different to what I had heard originally.

the timings of the strikes are a swift change in tactic, as it could cripple the service all week.

reading between the lines if you are currently rostered to book on at 09:59 on the Monday, but 10:01 on the Tuesday you effectively would not be taking part in the strikes.

Payment was dependent on the number of days you were due to work for, split over two pay periods.

 

[deltic]

RMT will probably claim as a victory the fact that SWR along with Northern have effectively gone bust in part due to industrial action leading to renationalisation of two franchises even if only temporarily.

 

[sparson]

24 hour strikes over two days. When the RMT tried this long ago on Southern, the guards were docked two days pay for striking on one shift. This could get more expensive than the South West guards realise. Maybe the RMT are planning to call it off anyway and blame the big bad company for being so unfair to get more support for their cause in the future.

 

[LAX54]

Not sure why TOC's even think it's a strep forward to get rid of Guards ! Once you reduce their reason to be on the train, then you risk no Guard at all, if one is not available, then the passengers are on thier own, the way I read it, they will keep a safety critical 'role', but does not say if there is not one, the train does not run.

 

[pompeyfan]

24 hour strikes over two days. When the RMT tried this long ago on Southern, the guards were docked two days pay for striking on one shift. This could get more expensive than the South West guards realise. Maybe the RMT are planning to call it off anyway and blame the big bad company for being so unfair to get more support for their cause in the future.

I’m not sure how legally you can dock 2 days pay for 1 period of absence.

 

[pompeyfan]

Not sure why TOC's even think it's a strep forward to get rid of Guards ! Once you reduce their reason to be on the train, then you risk no Guard at all, if one is not available, then the passengers are on thier own, the way I read it, they will keep a safety critical 'role', but does not say if there is not one, the train does not run.

currently SWR maintain that 701 trains will continue not to run in passenger service without a safety critical guard, and that is promised until the end of the franchise. whether or not you believe them, well I’ll leave that to your decision but I can certainly understand any scepticism.

 

[sparson]

I’m not sure how legally you can dock 2 days pay for 1 period of absence.

Southern did it, the RMT accepted it was legal and changed the strikes to single days.

currently SWR maintain that 701 trains will continue not to run in passenger service without a safety critical guard, and that is promised until the end of the franchise. whether or not you believe them, well I’ll leave that to your decision but I can certainly understand any scepticism.

It’s a good offer. RMT should work on the details and get it sewn up. Better than risking the franchise being scrapped and no guarantees when the government or TfL take over with their bottomless pockets.

 

[Class800]

Where I work, striking on any part of a day = a full day docked. Different industry though.

 

[pompeyfan]

Southern did it, the RMT accepted it was legal and changed the strikes to single days.


It’s a good offer. RMT should work on the details and get it sewn up. Better than risking the franchise being scrapped and no guarantees when the government or TfL take over with their bottomless pockets.

How can it be legal to dock someone’s pay when they’ve reported for work normally on the 1st day before 10:00 or on the 2nd day after 10:00?

I agree with you that on paper it’s not a bad deal, but I can certainly understand the RMTs long term fear that the rug will be pulled from under their feet, which is why they want an operational role on the train.

 

[pompeyfan]

Where I work, striking on any part of a day = a full day docked. Different industry though.

but if you’re not scheduled to report for duty until 11:59 each day, you’re only on strike for 1 day. Guards are being told not to book on during those times, not to down tools when the clock strikes 10.

 

[Class800]

The strike from 10am on 9th to 10am on 10th encompasses 2 calendar days, so may lead to 2 days being docked. It depends on contracts - and I don't know about that level of detail in the rail industry, so I'll leave it there

 

[DennisM]

As there will likely be an amended timetable SWR will be able to cancel all the guard turns and move the booking on times to maximise the number of guards who have to come into work. I’d assume they can move start times by +/- 2 hours?

 

[theironroad]

As there will likely be an amended timetable SWR will be able to cancel all the guard turns and move the booking on times to maximise the number of guards who have to come into work. I’d assume they can move start times by +/- 2 hours?

While in theory they could issue special diagrams with loads of 'report to DRM' content in them, and if its blatantly obvious what they're doing, I'd imagine that the RMT would go to the courts to test the issue as it would seem pretty clear that the changes were only being made to frustrate the taking of industrial action that was in full compliance with the relevant ballots and laws.

 

[Mojo]

Where I work, striking on any part of a day = a full day docked. Different industry though.

Railway strikes usually only affect the time that someone would be booking on, as opposed to just "downing tools" part way through a duty, which has been known but is uncommon. This is why railway unions have typically had strikes for 24 hours but covering part way during the day, as most staff will lose one day's pay but the service will be disrupted over multiple days.

 

[Horizon22]

With each strike, the number of trained contingency guards goes up. In comparison, the last few Southern strikes went practically unnoticed with the exception of "pure" conductor routes (West London Line / Uckfield). Will be interesting to see what sort of service SWR muster up.

 

[Brissle Girl]

With each strike, the number of trained contingency guards goes up. In comparison, the last few Southern strikes went practically unnoticed with the exception of "pure" conductor routes (West London Line / Uckfield). Will be interesting to see what sort of service SWR muster up.

Is that the case? I would imagine that would happen in the early days, but after so long would have thought that they would have max'ed out in terms of available staff that could be trained.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I've got Advance tickets for an SWR-only journey booked and it's on one of the strike dates. It's from a third party retailer (another TOC). SWR haven't announced their strike timetable yet, nor anything about ticket acceptance or free-of-charge refunds.

I think I'll either not travel, or make the journey by other means. Can I apply to the retailer for a FOC refund now, or should I wait until SWR makes further announcements. I'm thinking about the easiest time in terms of approaching the retailer - I haven't got the time or stamina for pointless back-and-forth at the moment!

 

[theironroad]

I've got Advance tickets for an SWR-only journey booked and it's on one of the strike dates. It's from a third party retailer (another TOC). SWR haven't announced their strike timetable yet, nor anything about ticket acceptance or free-of-charge refunds.

I think I'll either not travel, or make the journey by other means. Can I apply to the retailer for a FOC refund now, or should I wait until SWR makes further announcements. I'm thinking about the easiest time in terms of approaching the retailer - I haven't got the time or stamina for pointless back-and-forth at the moment!

Not sure what the journey is, but imagine it's longer distance if it's advance.

Tbh, I'd stick to your plans. Your ticket will be honoured (if it's checked) and its more than likely the journey will be reasonably uneventful even if it involves a change of trains .

 

[Carlisle]

Just heard Mick Cash being interviewed by Iain Dale on LBC, no idea how it went as I’m working so will have to listen on catch up later .

 

[NoMorePacers]

Honestly, I think you can get full guard operation to be almost as quick as DOO.

Remove interlock from the cab doors, so when the guard is releasing/closing the doors they don’t have to spend 5 seconds each way faffing about with opening/closing them at the station (can be done before the train stops and after it starts moving again).

You can also save some more time by having all the doors opening at once when the door release buttons are pressed by the guard, as opposed to the passenger having to manually mess about with them. Merseyrail do both of the above and with full guard operation are probably as quick as DOO at stations.

From my observations, that coupled with strategic placing of door panels in the cab would deliver the performance benefits of DOO without: 1) throwing the guards under the bus, and: 2) reducing safety.

 

[hwl]

Honestly, I think you can get full guard operation to be almost as quick as DOO.

Remove interlock from the cab doors, so when the guard is releasing/closing the doors they don’t have to spend 5 seconds each way faffing about with opening/closing them at the station (can be done before the train stops and after it starts moving again).

You can also save some more time by having all the doors opening at once when the door release buttons are pressed by the guard, as opposed to the passenger having to manually mess about with them. Merseyrail do both of the above and with full guard operation are probably as quick as DOO at stations.

From my observations, that coupled with strategic placing of door panels in the cab would deliver the performance benefits of DOO without: 1) throwing the guards under the bus, and: 2) reducing safety.

SWR want /need quicker than current DOO though e.g. door opening @ wheel stop

 

[Starmill]

SWR want /need quicker than current DOO though e.g. door opening @ wheel stop

Even this is not terribly infeasible. Haven't London Overground been using Correct Side Door Enable for years?

 

[NoMorePacers]

SWR want /need quicker than current DOO though e.g. door opening @ wheel stop

That can be added, sure. I was talking in comparison to current operation.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Am I right in thinking that having the drivers open the doors was agreed by the RMT, it’s the doors close they are against?

There’s an interesting article in London Reconnections about the subject, including how the holy grail is to have an automated stop (ie the driver doesn’t control the braking on approach to the station - thus giving a much more consistent and thus faster approach) with the doors opening as the train stops. Thus saving a few extra seconds.

All these seconds are seen as crucial in enabling a reliable service to operate at the capacity that is needed, particularly where headways are every couple of minutes and vacation and reoccupation of platforms is key to avoiding delays building up.

 

[Malcolmffc]

Even this is not terribly infeasible. Haven't London Overground been using Correct Side Door Enable for years?

Yes, and London Overground is DOO

 

[Malcolmffc]

Honestly, I think you can get full guard operation to be almost as quick as DOO.

Remove interlock from the cab doors, so when the guard is releasing/closing the doors they don’t have to spend 5 seconds each way faffing about with opening/closing them at the station (can be done before the train stops and after it starts moving again).

You can also save some more time by having all the doors opening at once when the door release buttons are pressed by the guard, as opposed to the passenger having to manually mess about with them. Merseyrail do both of the above and with full guard operation are probably as quick as DOO at stations.

From my observations, that coupled with strategic placing of door panels in the cab would deliver the performance benefits of DOO without: 1) throwing the guards under the bus, and: 2) reducing safety.

Having guards as OBS would be just as safe and much simpler.

 

[Scottychoo]

If SWR didn't cave in after a months strike then how is a couple more days going to change anything!?

 

[Monty]

Am I right in thinking that having the drivers open the doors was agreed by the RMT, it’s the doors close they are against?

There’s an interesting article in London Reconnections about the subject, including how the holy grail is to have an automated stop (ie the driver doesn’t control the braking on approach to the station - thus giving a much more consistent and thus faster approach) with the doors opening as the train stops. Thus saving a few extra seconds.

All these seconds are seen as crucial in enabling a reliable service to operate at the capacity that is needed, particularly where headways are every couple of minutes and vacation and reoccupation of platforms is key to avoiding delays building up.

Considering significant infrastructure works would be required for the 701s to make full use of this technology and NR are struggling to maintain what they have already I have some serious doubts that forcing through their desired method of operation is going to the yield the results they are looking for..

 

[hwl]

Even this is not terribly infeasible. Haven't London Overground been using Correct Side Door Enable for years?

It is very feasible, it is one of the reasons they are getting the 701 fleet. ASDO, CSDE and ABDO.