Future for 9 East Anglia Class 317s

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by IanXC, 13 Nov 2011.

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  1. IanXC

    IanXC Emeritus Moderator

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    As it seems these 9 units will be leaving service with the East Anglia franchise, what future do they have? Where do people think they could be usefully employed elsewhere on the network?
     
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  3. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    The initial Northern electrification part will need about a dozen EMUs (based on current service patterns):

    Liverpool - Blackpool (3 EMUs)
    Liverpool - Manchester Airport (3 EMUs)
    Liverpool - Wigan (4 EMUs)
    One Peak Extra - hypothetically (1 EMU)
    Spare capacity of around 10% (1 EMU)

    So, on their own that won't be quite enough to convert these services. Plus, of course, service patterns will change (e.g. the Liverpool - Staleybridge service will probably be cut back to Manchester Victoria).

    But, off the top of my head, that was the first place I could think of.

    However, add in the seven 321s from LM (if they get their 350s, and the St Albans line is converted to tram) and you may have enough to provide an interim supply of EMUs to Manchester/ Liverpool, whilst they wait for the post Thameslink cascade.
     
  4. hmp455

    hmp455 Member

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    Would the Liverpool electrification be third rail or overhead?

    (I know it might sound silly, but I am asking as the Merseyrail network is third rail)
     
  5. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    Overhead, it goes nowhere near the 3rd rail network for merseyrail (except at Lime St)
     
  6. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    From a driver training point of view and assuming they also get the seven LM 321s, it would make sense to send the 317s to Yorkshire to release the 321/9s and 322s to Manchester. It would give common fleets and the drivers could be trained quicker than sending the 321s and 317s to Lancashire. In addition, Yorkshire would have an extra unit. Whether 15 units would be enough for Lancashire is another matter though and I doubt WYPTE would be happy
     
  7. bnsf734

    bnsf734 Member

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    Are there not some long term residents of Ilford depot that have not worked for some time?

    I seem to think that under the terms of the franchise Natex have to return all their trains to service.

    Perhaps once these have been sorted out these will cover for the 9 trains coming off-lease?

    Probably wont be a quick process though - more misery for GEML users.
     
  8. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    The LM 350s are not intended to replace their 321s, whether or not the St Albans line is converted. The probable 8 x 350s are for strengthening services:

    The point that LM could not make a business case to replace the 321s is also made by Tony Miles on page 87 of the November Modern Railways...
     
    Last edited: 14 Nov 2011
  9. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Why for GEML users? Surely they're not going to take 321s off the GEML and stick them on the WA to cover for the reduced number of 317s (though as you say, not so reduced really given the ones that have been long term crocked)?
     
  10. 87015

    87015 Established Member

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    The reduced 317s are (presumed to be) coming off the extra GE diagrams which start in Dec to tackle overcrowding.
    Covering seven extra unit diagrams (as they have quoted they will be operating a service 8 cars less than December) with 321s is very wishful thinking - getting the few demics back into use or not - where is all the time for this extra maintenance going to come from with even more intensively diagrammed units?
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    LM could almost replace there 321s if they had confidence to diagram their 350s at levels ued for most new EMUs, they only use 60/67 SX. No wonder they had a stonking MTIN period if they can have that many under attention! You have to ask why they are not diagramming at least four extra units out on a daily basis, there are certainly trains which could do with four extra cars out of Euston in the peaks.
     
  11. sonic2009

    sonic2009 Established Member

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    Are 360s compatible with 350s?

    If so surely you could swap 321s for 360s. Give 360s a complete refresh and then they will be maintained by Siemens at Northampton and use the 360s on Birmingham to Preston etc when the service starts? Ideally i think St Albans Abbey should be 378s run by LO
     
  12. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Sounds reasonable

    Thats frustrating, when Northern have been struggling without all three 321s in service (prior to the 322s arriving). As nothing else can "rescue" a failed 321, there have been times (regularly) when a "fit" 321 has had to be sat at Neville Hill out of use, and 158s deputising for it (because if the 321 had failed, the other 321s were crocked and so couldn't "rescue" it). This then means putting 3 coach 158s to replace a 4 coach 321 (which therefore means a two coach 155 replacing a three coach 158 on the Caldervale line, which then means a single Pacer being used instead of a 155 elsewhere...). frustrating, when NXEA had EMUs sat idle. (not an issue now the 322s are in Leeds, of course)

    Ah, I think I must be thinking of when TPE get new EMUs to replace the 350s being ordered (and the TPE 350s may see off the remaining LM 321s)...

    I knew that they had a lot of 170s sat idle on an average day, but didn't appreciate the 350s were so "laxly" used too.
     
  13. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    I wouldn't say that sixty out of sixty seven units in service Monday to Friday is lax use of the fleet: That's just about 90% fleet utilisation. I don't know what the figures are for other commuter EMU fleets, but that still seems quite high to me, even if LM aren't sweating the assets to their absolute maximum potential.
     
  14. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Ah, so the 9 would be (in theory) the 317/7 fleet? I'd forgtoten those were supposedly going to the GE- those units in particular, as they're the most luxurious (including 2+1 1st class).
     
  15. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    If you're assuming current service patterns why have you excluded the Liverpool to Bank Quay service? The plan is to divert/extend it to Victoria anyway and and as you say Stalybridge will become a shuttle or get tagged on to something else unless the line through Ashton gets electrified.

    There's also 2 peak time Pacer services currently that could be operated by 323s but are DMU operated due to a shortage of EMUs.

    Given the 319s won't be ready in time for Liverpool-Manchester, I think using 317s in the short term may be a solution but longer term a small number of different EMUs isn't a good idea
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Given Liverpool to Manchester Airport is usually 156 operated and the 317/7s have the same seating and tables, I don't think there would be many (if any) passengers complaining about inferior trains if these appear instead of 156s. Although, there may well be comments about getting cascaded trains not new ones.
     
  16. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    That's just another hypothetical cascade as far as I can see - it has never appeared in anything official from the DfT has it?

    However at least it has had an airing in Modern Railways, who usually have their finger on the pulse...
     
  17. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    Having a joint LM/TPE order for 350s hasn't actually appeared in anything official from DfT. Although LM have said that DfT have asked them to tag on units for TPE to their order for new EMUs.
     
  18. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Not sure how many seats Northern's 156s have- I've found a reference saying that seating varies by TOC from 140-152, Standard only. A four car (admittedly 20m, not 23m carriages) 317/7 has only 172 Standard, 22 First- yes, an increase in capacity (versus a two car working) but not quite as much as you'd hope! They've got a massive disabled-access loo, parking for catering trolleys, lots of luggage racks and the 1st class takes up a lot of space.
     
  19. colchesterken

    colchesterken Member

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    The world has gone mad. back in the old days BR owned the track ran the trains and built new trains. Privatisation was the bigest mistake ever. We have the Germans running the bigest freight operatorThe dutch tied in to the northern franchise and now the Dutch railways running my railway
    BR should have been made a non profit state owned co the subisidy would have been less as there would be no shareholders in the operator and the ROSCO to pay..effectivly out of the subsidies paid to the operators and our overpriced tickets

    Now to crown it all we hear the new operator the Dutch railways is giving back 9 of the additional trains NXEA negociated for how about putting on some extra services

    Its all bonkers
     
  20. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    If they were to come to the North West I imagine FC would be declassified and it would be 194 seats compared to around 150 seats on a 156, plus additional luggage space they would be well suited to the Liverpool to Manchester Airport services.

    Now the problem comes on the Liverpool to Man Vic and Wigan stoppers. You can get busy 142+150 combinations at peak times so 280 seats vs 194 is an issue. The 323s with 280 seats would be needed on the busier Liverpool to Wigan/Manchester services, leaving 317s for the quieter services currently operated by 323s.

    The problem you highlight will likely be an issue for the refurbished 319s even if the 317s never come to the North West. You add DDA compliance and have shorter carriages and it's like losing a carriage.

    A 185 has 154 standard seats and 15 first class. 319s are supposed to be replacing 185s on Manchester Airport to Blackpool, which run as 6 car 185s on busy services and a lot of platforms in the North West don't take more than 6 car. So potentially we could have a train with less than 200 seats running in place of a pair of trains with over 300 seats.

    Having 3+2 seating replacing 2+2 seating won't go down well (look at LM and SWT services where that's happened) and it will decrease standing capacity. Also, while I suggested 323s and 31xs swap over, Northern only have a small fleet of 323s so there won't be enough to go on all the busy services.

    When I've said in previous posts Northern need new 3 car EMUs or, alternatively 4 car EMUs with SDO it's not just because I object to getting old units from somewhere else - in some cases the older units are better 170s and 175s vs 185s for instance - it's because the 319s aren't really that suitable for the North West.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    A possible solution for the 317s could be for LM to take them on (they are ordering 8 x 350s which they say are needed for additional capacity), then when they get the extra 350s, cascade the NXEA units to the North West until the 319s are ready to enter service.

    Long term the East Anglia franchise might need them back as passenger numbers grow.
     
  21. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Because I forgot... :oops:

    To be honest, once the maths showed that nine NXEA EMUs wouldn't be enough to cover the first batch of new electrification, I stopped worrying about peak extras etc, because the figures were never going to add up.

    If Bombardier still want to make 379s (as they offered to Southern, instead of 377s...) then a follow on order for NXEA would give more scope to cascade some 317/321s north, but thats not likely.

    Honestly, right now I can't see where the fifteen (or so) additional EMUs needed for the Manchester/ Liverpool/Blackpool electrification will come from
     
  22. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    It's only really phase 1 and phase 2 that need covering. Blackpool and Bolton in the later phases aren't expected to be complete before 319s are available.
     
  23. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    Before FCC refurbished the 319s they were listed as having between 228 (319/2) and 319 (319/0) seats, and as the passenger compartments of the 317s can only be slightly smaller I'm not quite sure why the 317s couldn't have a similar number (to the 142+150 combination) fitted. I must admit I've never been on a 317/7, but it can't be that hard can it?

    That is going to be a problem whatever stock you use though, if the DMUs carried on for another 10 years they would have to be made DDA compliant and lose seats and standing area. It is an issue, but it is an unavoidable one.

    Perhaps I missed something but my understanding was TPE were getting 350s until better stock could be obtained and that only FGW and Northern were getting 319s, so why would the 185s be replaced by 319s?

    I'm not convinced new units will have any more seating capacity than the 319s (which you point out to be an issue), 4 car 377s have around 240 seats, the 5 car 376s have 344. The two car 172s have around 120 seats and the 2 car 175s around 130. The 185s have a total of 169 seats, an average of around 56 seats per carriage (not taking into account that some would be first class).

    I don't know if 319s can be fitted with SDO (if FGW can fit it to Mk3s I see no reason why they can't), but if they can that is one less reason to buy new when existing trains 'will do'.

    The problem there would be making sure that the 317s are only used on specific services (and those services don't require coupling to 350 operated services) and that if they fail there is something nearby that can rescue them. Not to mention that if the capacity of each is only 194 that's not much of an increase in capacity (8 car 317/7 services being 388 vs about 240 (4 car 350) or 480 (8 car 350)).
     
  24. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    If new EMUs were being built, I'm sure "the north" would love it if they went there first, rather than East Anglia getting the new build and sending 20-30 year old stock north. Without 1st class, and possibly less luggage racks, 379s would be fine.

    and I say this as an NXEA WA reugular user who wouldn't be upset if the entire 317 fleet was replaced with 379s. I just don't understand why, if the need for stock is in the north, the south should get new stuff and the old stuff sent north. it's only happening that way in the case of Thameslink as they're getting a much bigger, single-type, custom specification fleet- the spare 319s are a byproduct.
     
  25. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    The TPE services are going to be diverted to run via Wigan once electrification is in place, at least for the first couple of years and I think that there is a strong line of thought for keeping them that way permanently. As such, the 319s will be taking up the Manchester Airport to Preston paths made available by this move through Bolton.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Are all the peak time TPE Manchester to Scotland services six carriages though? I didn't think they were. Plus, you've got to think of the cumulative effects of 319s running the majority of the services through Bolton, and Wigan, as well as longer DMU formations being able to run up towards Blackburn using units released by electrification:

    Overall, there will be a greater number of seats, more evenly spread across the peaks (Compared to the mix of two, three and four carriage local formations that there currently are) running through Bolton. This should alleviate some of the problems of crush loading occuring on some trains where passengers were unable to board the shorter train that preceeded it.
     
    Last edited: 15 Nov 2011
  26. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    Yes it's an issue with DMUs but the following needs to be noted:
    * Pacers with the short carriages will be scrapped.
    * 153s won't be made DDA compliant without either being reformed in to 2 car units or by making other Sprinters 3 car units.

    So we'll likely see accessible 150s replacing Pacers and 153s, which will be an increase in capacity even with DDA (except for the 3 car 144s). Then 2 car units with 23m carriages and DDA compliance will likely replace 150s, so similar capacity there. Then 3 car units replacing 2 car 155/156/158 units, so again an increase in capacity.

    The 4 car EMU issue is they are non-flexible. You can't have 2,3,4,5 or 6 car workings like you can with Sprinters. It's 4 car or nothing, as 8 car requires non-planned platform lengthening to be implemented in the North West.

    10 x 350s are being ordered for Manchester-Scotland, which will be replaced by better units when either Liverpool-Scotland services are introduced or North TPE is electrified or both.

    This means until around 2019, at least, the only EMUs available for Manchester-Blackpool are 319s.

    I didn't say they would per unit. I said if we had new 3 car units, then they could be used doubled up i.e. 6 car on busier services opposed to 4 car. Alternatively, pairs of 4 car workings but with SDO, again more capacity than a single 4 car unit. New trains could also have 23m carriages not 20m carriages.
     
  27. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    I'd be perfectly happy with brand new EMUs in "the north" (even happier if they were in Sheffield :lol:).

    I was only suggesting more 379s for WA as that'd keep "like with like", especially as that is one area of "the south" which has some very old EMUs.

    Changing the subject, do we *know* that the units released from East Anglia are definitely 317s (not 321s or 315s?)? Or when?
     
  28. philjo

    philjo Established Member

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    I suspect that if the 317s are available FCC would try to get a couple for the GN route as they would want either 317s or 321s to avoid having another class of unit on the route.
     
  29. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    Yes. All peak time Scottish services operate as 6 car, at least between Manchester Airport and Preston. Most of them portion work with Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere services.

    Morning 6 car TPE arrivals in Manchester from Preston at present:
    08:27 arrival at Piccadilly from Barrow/Blackpool - 6 car 185 between Preston and Manchester Airport
    08:56 arrival at Piccadilly from Edinburgh/Blackpool - 6 car 185 between Preston and Manchester Airport.

    Evening 6 car TPE departures from Manchester for Preston at present:
    16:16 departure from Piccadilly (FX) for Windermere and Edinburgh - 6 car 185 between Manchester Airport and Preston
    16:16 departure from Piccadilly (FO) for Edinburgh - 6 car 185 throughout.
    17:15 departure from Piccadilly for Glasgow and Barrow - 6 car 185 between Manchester Airport and Preston
    18:16 departure for Edinburgh and Barrow - 6 car 185 between Manchester Airport and Preston
     
  30. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    I agree with your doubts - I don't think we do really know. IIRC this subject all started off following a post in wnxx by Tony Miles, following his comment on Radio 4, which referred to 15 units. That eventually was reduced to 9 units.

    I think all we do know for certain is that the 168 extra vehicles for NXEA (30 x 379 and 17 x 321) were organised and agreed with DfT back when it was intended that 12 car trains would be needed on Stansted Airport runs.
    Clearly this isn't happening now, and a number of posts have suggested (across a range of forums), and going back a year or more, that this has resulted in NXEA having a certain amount of spare capacity especially if all the various out of use units were reinstated.

    So all in all I think you can only say that if the excess capacity is on the WA and Stansted routes it is probably 317s that become available.
     
  31. 87015

    87015 Established Member

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    Don't think so for certain they have released what sticky digits are being released, but the 317/7s seem favourites on all fronts. When is by all accounts from the start of the new franchise Sunday 5 February... Quite where that leaves the Olympics timetable is another large gap.
     
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