Future for 9 East Anglia Class 317s

[jopsuk]

Fair enough! Most passengers wouldn't even twig; a little knowledge is the most dangerous thing!

 

[SprinterMan]

Back on topic, I am starting to get the impression this is all a clever work by Abellio, and that Northern will be getting 9 321/4s out of it for Hazel Grove services.....
Just a suspicion. :P

 

[pemma]

Back on topic, I am starting to get the impression this is all a clever work by Abellio, and that Northern will be getting 9 321/4s out of it for Hazel Grove services.....
Just a suspicion. :P

Abeillo may not have either franchise by the time Hazel Grove-Preston is ready to go over to electric.

However, there are two Pacer workings on the west side at peak times which could be EMU operated, so there's where 2 EMUs could go straight away.

If Hazel Grove services get split then there's a 3rd EMU that could be utilised. However, that would mean sending the Preston services to either Buxton or Chester and Northern didn't want to send them to either Buxton or Chester because of it being a longer journey and more likely to have punctuality issues.

A 4th and 5th would allow for less cancellations and 2 car DMUs filling in for EMUs. However, I don't know how all 9 could be used at present unless some 323s get doubled up or they introduce a new service that utilises OHE.
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I'm surprised no-one has replied yet saying Northern should take on the NXEA as soon as they are available and sublease some 323s to LM until Liverpool-Manchester is electrified.

 

[Nym]

Or they could use them for a WCML stopper between Crewe and Preston...

Or terminate the Hazel Grove services at Oxford Road or Piccadilly, split them there and run the remainder as EMU...

 

[pemma]

Or terminate the Hazel Grove services at Oxford Road or Piccadilly, split them there and run the remainder as EMU...

Lack of through services from Stockport wouldn't go down well.

 

[Nym]

Considering the amount of people who actually stay on the train past piccadilly, usually about 5% of passengers, I'm sure they'll get over it when a 4 car EMU shows up instead of a 2 car DMU.

 

[pemma]

Considering the amount of people who actually stay on the train past piccadilly, usually about 5% of passengers, I'm sure they'll get over it when a 4 car EMU shows up instead of a 2 car DMU.

That makes absolutely no sense.

I've been on trains where over 100 people who were on departing at Stockport are still on after departing Piccadilly.

A passenger travelling from the likes of Altrincham/Macclesfield/Wilmslow and Salford/Bolton/Preston currently has the option of changing at Stockport and if they changed at Stockport it means they have much higher chance of getting a seat from Manchester onwards than changing at Manchester Piccadilly. Using 4 car EMUs on Hazel Grove-Manchester will make no difference to these passengers as they won't want to change at Stockport if there is no direct train to Salford/Bolton/Preston from Stockport. It will also have a major negative effect in passenger flows in that more people will use the overcrowded platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly.

If Hazel Grove is split it would make much more sense to send Preston trains to Chester or Buxton, until Bolton electrification, to avoid such problems.

 

[Nym]

Aye, sending them to Chester would make good sense, or Buxton...

 

[pemma]

Just thought - with all the suggestions of 317s going to Northern are we going about this back to front?

What about sending them to FCC, then FCC can release 319s for full refurbishment 9 sets at a time, then when the first electrified lines are ready FCC can permanently release 9 refurbished 319s.

 

[swt_passenger]

Just thought - with all the suggestions of 317s going to Northern are we going about this back to front?

What about sending them to FCC, then FCC can release 319s for full refurbishment 9 sets at a time, then when the first electrified lines are ready FCC can permanently release 9 refurbished 319s.

The 317s cannot operate on the DC side of Thameslink. You need a new plan...

 

[Aictos]

The 317s cannot operate on the DC side of Thameslink. You need a new plan...

True but seeing as they cannot run Moorgate to Bedford as they used to do, it's back to some services running St Pancras International High Level to Bedford which may be some crowd busting services.

 

[tbtc]

True but seeing as they cannot run Moorgate to Bedford as they used to do, it's back to some services running St Pancras International High Level to Bedford which may be some crowd busting services.

Is there really space at St Pancras, on the cramped EMT platforms, for FCC to run peak extras?

 

[Nym]

You mean that St Pancras Intl. HL that has 4 platforms for domestic services and is therefore already at saturation with 5tph for EMT?

 

[Aictos]

Is there really space at St Pancras, on the cramped EMT platforms, for FCC to run peak extras?

I forgot about that, there's still the Low Level platforms which I'm sure are bi-directional unless I'm very much mistaken?

Just needs careful planning to do so.

 

[swt_passenger]

True but seeing as they cannot run Moorgate to Bedford as they used to do,

All the services that used to run to Moorgate are still in the timetable, they were just linked up with the Southeastern services that used to run from the south and terminate in the Blackfriars bay platforms.

The 319 fleet is therefore fully diagrammed on cross London services, and all the diagrams require dual voltage stock.

 

[NXEA!]

As an aside, is there confirmation of which services the 317s will run on the GE between the December time table change and whenever Abellio get rid of them?

The following diagrams are for 12-car 317 formations from December 2011. Diagrams from Anglia Gen.

05.52 ECS Harwich Parkeston to Ipswich (06.21)
06.29 Ipswich to Liverpool Street (07.48)
08.01 Liverpool Street to Ipswich (09.20)
09.30 Ipswich to Liverpool Street (10.44)
10.57 ECS Liverpool Street to Orient Way Carriage Sidings (11.13)
16.11 ECS Orient Way Carriage Sidings to Liverpool Street (16.38)
17.02 Liverpool Street to Norwich (19.07. In case anyone doesn't know, this is an all stations service effectively, and runs just after the 17.00 loco-hauled to Norwich)
19.30 Norwich to Liverpool Street (21.18)
22.00 Liverpool Street to Ipswich (23.08)
23.15 ECS Ipswich to Harwich International (23.38)
23.45 ECS Harwich International to Harwich Parkeston (23.50)

07.10 ECS Harwich Parkeston to Stowmarket (07.59)
08.11 Stowmarket to Liverpool Street (09.38)
09.45 ECS Liverpool Street to Ilford Depot (10.09)
18.46 ECS Ilford Depot to Liverpool Street (19.09)
19.32 Liverpool Street to Harwich International (20.50)
21.20 ECS Harwich International to Harwich Parkeston (21.25)
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You mean that St Pancras Intl. HL that has 4 platforms for domestic services and is therefore already at saturation with 5tph for EMT?

It seems to manage fine with 4 extra services to Bedford an hour on weekends when there is engineering work on Thameslink? This includes Saturdays quite often, when there are 5 EMT tph as opposed to Sunday's with a lower EMT frequency.

 

[Minstral25]

For Thameslink to release 9 class 319's where are the replacement services South of the River going to come from.

There is a shortage of dual voltage stock already and despite their nice new 12 coach trains for Bedford peak hour passengers there are still two 4 coach services in the peak to South London destinations.

Additionally if there was any dual voltage stock the first place they would go would be for additional West London Line trains from Southern.

 

[Aictos]

All the services that used to run to Moorgate are still in the timetable, they were just linked up with the Southeastern services that used to run from the south and terminate in the Blackfriars bay platforms.

The 319 fleet is therefore fully diagrammed on cross London services, and all the diagrams require dual voltage stock.

No, you misunderstand I meant the fact that the 317s that were used on the TL route to act as crowd busting services which used to run between Moorgate and Bedford, not the usual 319 operated services to Moorgate from Bedford which isn't possible any more as the junction to Moorgate from Farringdon has been lifted and plain lined.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I forgot about that, there's still the Low Level platforms which I'm sure are bi-directional unless I'm very much mistaken?....

I think you might be mistaken, I haven't been there recently, but, AFAIK, the only section of bi-directional working in the core section is the Down Holborn through City Thameslink.

In any case, you would have to account for the turnaround time and have a suitable gap in the timetable, which is asking a lot.

 

[Class377/5]

No, you misunderstand I meant the fact that the 317s that were used on the TL route to act as crowd busting services which used to run between Moorgate and Bedford, not the usual 319 operated services to Moorgate from Bedford which isn't possible any more as the junction to Moorgate from Farringdon has been lifted and plain lined.

Your very much mistake. Every service that has run as a 'crowd buster' as you put it is now a 319 or 377 train. The Core cannot take any trains reversing in the Core peak time at all. The only reason why the 317 was used as part of the early KO0 was because Moorgate branch could be used to reverse the train. That's now impossible. Any train reversing in the Core would mean at least one or two trains would have to be removed from the timetable. That is not possible for over crowding reasons.

I think you might be mistaken, I haven't been there recently, but, AFAIK, the only section of bi-directional working in the core section is the Down Holborn through City Thameslink.

In any case, you would have to account for the turnaround time and have a suitable gap in the timetable, which is asking a lot.

Sorry but your info is out of date. As of now bi direction working is now live from Kentish Town to City Thameslink. City to Blackfriars (phase 3) will be commissioned at Easter along with the bays.

What does start this weekend is adding in the points for the TL & GN link this weekend. Well the southbound this and next weekend.

 

[mappman1000]

The 1930 Norwich - Liverpool Street was worked by a 12 car formation of 317's yesterday. Think it was two /8's ad one /6

 

[jopsuk]

Nice, the 3+2, no tables standard class and 2+2, no tables 1st class of the /8s should give anyone that complains about the mark 3s some perspective! At least the /7s do actually have a halfway suitable seating layout for Intercity type runs.

 

[87015]

The 1930 Norwich - Liverpool Street was worked by a 12 car formation of 317's yesterday. Think it was two /8's ad one /6

Until further notice in reaction to broken 360s left right and centre.

 

[O L Leigh]

/8s do have tables in first class.

O L Leigh

 

[mappman1000]

Until further notice in reaction to broken 360s left right and centre.

Although 360's are not cleared north of Stowmarket

At the moment a 12 car 317 formation tends to work 07:29 Witham - Liverpoo Street, then 1702 LST - NRW and 1930 NRW - LST.

 

[dk1]

The 1930 Norwich - Liverpool Street was worked by a 12 car formation of 317's yesterday. Think it was two /8's ad one /6

The 17.02 isn't intended to carry passengers from London through to Norwich unless the 17.00 'Anglian' is caped but the 19.30 return does. The look on passengers face is quite amusing & they tend to ask several members of staff & other passengers to be sure this is the Liverpool St train.

 

[mappman1000]

The 17.02 isn't intended to carry passengers from London through to Norwich unless the 17.00 'Anglian' is caped but the 19.30 return does. The look on passengers face is quite amusing & they tend to ask several members of staff & other passengers to be sure this is the Liverpool St train.

As well as acting as a commuter-ex for all the stations south of Ipswich, as well as Stowmarket I guess. I've done the 1930 off Norwich and it is always very lightly loaded, a few more get on at Ipswich and Colchester, but they are used to the concept of EMU's round there.

 

[Bevan Price]

The initial Northern electrification part will need about a dozen EMUs (based on current service patterns):

Liverpool - Blackpool (3 EMUs)
Liverpool - Manchester Airport (3 EMUs)
Liverpool - Wigan (4 EMUs)
One Peak Extra - hypothetically (1 EMU)
Spare capacity of around 10% (1 EMU)

So, on their own that won't be quite enough to convert these services. Plus, of course, service patterns will change (e.g. the Liverpool - Staleybridge service will probably be cut back to Manchester Victoria).
.

One of the proposals from the Manchester Hub project would see the Liverpool - Manchester Airport diverted via Warrington Central, and some TPE sevices to Liverpool running via the Chat Moss. So, the first phase of electrification would need only 2 EMU's for Liverpool - Manchester Victoria, plus 2 more for Liverpool to Warrington Bank Quay (or Manchester) . Say 6 EMUs including spares.

Liverpool to Wigan / Blackpool will be completed later, and with present service levels would need about another 7 EMUs plus another spare or two. More EMU's would be needed when Manchester - Blackpool electrification is completed.

 

[swt_passenger]

Although 360's are not cleared north of Stowmarket

This is mentioned every few weeks, so once again I'm going to post a link to the NR paperwork reporting that they were cleared through to Norwich in May 2010:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse... 360 nxea ipswich-norwich/g establishment.pdf

 

[Bald Rick]

This is mentioned every few weeks, so once again I'm going to post a link to the NR paperwork reporting that they were cleared through to Norwich in May 2010:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse... 360 nxea ipswich-norwich/g establishment.pdf

Vehicle change does not = route clearance.