Future LNER London to Huddersfield services

[TUC]

correct. close thread!



Shipley, Keighley and Skipton are on an electrified line that can be easily served as an extension of a normal service that would otherwise go straight to the depot form Leeds. This service can be offer at little extra cost, little operational thinking or overall time penalty. They are also fairly affluent areas with people who could conceivably go to London.

So what if Huddersfield is one of the biggest places without a direct train to London. That means nowt. I doubt Huddersfield has the same sort of higher value person as the Airdale route. Personally I don't think this service is being offered on economic grounds but more on buying off some voluble stake holder / politician and nicking some revenue via the ORCTAS (?) system. Frankly it is a waste of resource that can be used better elsewhere on the LNER route.

As a Halifax resident who travels regularly to London I'm left wondering if we're sufficiently high value people in your eyes to justify a direct London service, but I can assure you we do exist.

 

[DarloRich]

As a Halifax resident who travels regularly to London I'm left wondering if we're sufficiently high value people in your eyes to justify a direct London service, but I can assure you we do exist.

No problem. Are there enough of you to pay the costs of operating the service and turn a profit for the operators?

I doubt it. You wont agree

 

[Aictos]

I’m not a local but why bring a daily service to Huddersfield when local services to Leeds and Sheffield should be improved to provide better local links especially as the latter two stations have a pretty good London service that locals can use.

I’m not against investment per see but improved local links are essential and seeing as Leeds to name just one local Interchange has a regular and frequent all day service to London I fail to see why the London to Huddersfield service ought to go ahead.

 

[SuperNova]

I’m not a local but why bring a daily service to Huddersfield when local services to Leeds and Sheffield should be improved to provide better local links especially as the latter two stations have a pretty good London service that locals can use.

I’m not against investment per see but improved local links are essential and seeing as Leeds to name just one local Interchange has a regular and frequent all day service to London I fail to see why the London to Huddersfield service ought to go ahead.

Because it is easier to fit in a direct service to London now. To improve local links to Leeds and Sheffield would require billions spent on the network.

Of course TransPennine Route Upgrade will improve Leeds links should it ever get the sign off from the DfT, but Sheffield links either need a new curve building near Horbury or the Penistone line redoubling.

It's nice the Huddersfield has a direct London link but given there are 5 fast service to Leeds every hour to connect with LNER service, 4 services to Man Pic an hour to connect with Avanti and Grand Central operating from Brighouse/Mirfield - then the direct link isn't particularly required.

 

[HowardGWR]

Is there not more of a case for a town to get a direct train from London in the morning and back in the evening than the other way around? If you are a London based investor looking for a good place to create a new northern local base, if Huddersfield can only be reached by changing trains, does that not make you think - can't be much doing there then? How do you get your staff to go up there and start up if they think it's 'out of the way'? It can be psychological perhaps.
I know Weston in the West Country feels that; at least the local councillors do.

 

[Djgr]

For goodness sake lay off Huddersfield. It seems perfectly reasonable and eminently sensible for a whole host of reasons for large towns to have a direct link to London.

 

[jimm]

Is there not more of a case for a town to get a direct train from London in the morning and back in the evening than the other way around? If you are a London based investor looking for a good place to create a new northern local base, if Huddersfield can only be reached by changing trains, does that not make you think - can't be much doing there then? How do you get your staff to go up there and start up if they think it's 'out of the way'? It can be psychological perhaps.
I know Weston in the West Country feels that; at least the local councillors do.

There are people running businesses in Huddersfield who do occasionally have cause to go to London to do some business - I should know, as my relatives ran a textile firm in the town for many years (since sold to a firm based in Mirfield, though the weaving is still done at Huddersfield) - but I've no idea whether that would have qualified them to pass the 'person of higher value' test that apparently Airedale residents match up to without any trouble - though not half as well as those from Harrogate... and you can't get from London to Keighley and Skipton of a morning on a direct train either.

It's probably a sight easier in the long run to give a helping hand with this sort of service to existing, established businesses and help them to boost their prospects and wider economic impact on the communities they are based in, than rely on investment from outside - or you can find yourself in the Honda-Swindon scenario, to take one current example.

People in Huddersfield and Dewsbury (and Halifax, Brighouse, Mirfield and Pontefract with their sketchy Grand Central service) would, I'm sure, be delighted to be as out of the way as Weston-super-Mare, with all those trains to London and back on weekdays.

 

[gledhill56]

Driver training runs appear to have started.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...8/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GR

 

[DarloRich]

Is there not more of a case for a town to get a direct train from London in the morning and back in the evening than the other way around? If you are a London based investor looking for a good place to create a new northern local base, if Huddersfield can only be reached by changing trains, does that not make you think - can't be much doing there then? How do you get your staff to go up there and start up if they think it's 'out of the way'? It can be psychological perhaps.
I know Weston in the West Country feels that; at least the local councillors do.

The London train or lack thereof isnt what is stopping investment in areas like Huddersfield. The main question is how do you make your town look a better bet for those investors than buying office space in Leeds or Manchester? The direct train wont improve the quality of accommodation offered ,the residential options of your staff, the wider road/bus systems ( because most people drive to work), the quality of schools, the employment options for family members of your staff, the local amenities, the range of shops available and 10000's of other things.

 

[jimm]

The London train or lack thereof isnt what is stopping investment in areas like Huddersfield. The main question is how do you make your town look a better bet for those investors than buying office space in Leeds or Manchester? The direct train wont improve the quality of accommodation offered ,the residential options of your staff, the wider road/bus systems ( because most people drive to work), the quality of schools, the employment options for family members of your staff, the local amenities, the range of shops available and 10000's of other things.

A couple of London trains a day each way at Shrewsbury haven't solved its flooding problems either.

Or are enough of Shrewsbury's residents of higher value, so as not to offend you when someone suggested running a through service there?

No one is going to force you to use these trains, or even set foot in Huddersfield with all those lower value residents - just the same as no one forced Virgin to include the idea of Huddersfield (or Middlesbrough) services in the franchise bid in the first place.

 

[DarloRich]

No one is going to force you to use these trains, or even set foot in Huddersfield with all those lower value residents - just the same as no one forced Virgin to include the idea of Huddersfield (or Middlesbrough) services in the franchise bid in the first place.

This is really tiresome. My view, which you don't like, is that these resources can be better used delivering a better service to existing locations on the LNER network rather than offering some kind vanity service to appease some vocal local fantasists/stakeholders in a small northern town

BTW Hudderfield is a place I have visited several times. I saw Neil Maddison score a great goal for Darlo there. It is a bit rough and ready and seemed to lack a decent pub away from the station but was a fairly standard, run down, northern town like the ones I grew up in and lived in for most of my life.

PS The Middlesbrough one is a bit different, I might use that one

 

[tbtc]

The London train or lack thereof isnt what is stopping investment in areas like Huddersfield

Maybe people suggesting that lack of a direct London train is the thing holding places like Huddersfield back should have to supply working to show how Wrexham/ Halifax/ Hartlepool etc have been transformed by gaining a direct London service in recent times (since the same reasons were trotted out about how these places "deserved" a London link, so presumably people will be able to demonstrate the amazing changes that have come about (rather than just the general civic pride and more convenient journey)?

(conversely, the city of Salford seems to have attracted a lot of money/investment in the past decade or so without the need for a direct train service to the capital)

 

[DarloRich]

Maybe people suggesting that lack of a direct London train is the thing holding places like Huddersfield back should have to supply working to show how Wrexham/ Halifax/ Hartlepool etc have been transformed by gaining a direct London service in recent times (since the same reasons were trotted out about how these places "deserved" a London link, so presumably people will be able to demonstrate the amazing changes that have come about (rather than just the general civic pride and more convenient journey)?

(conversely, the city of Salford seems to have attracted a lot of money/investment in the past decade or so without the need for a direct train service to the capital)

A train to London wont fix the years of economic destruction done to northern towns by our Tory overlords. There has been a constant drift of skilled, secure, well paid jobs away from these areas. That needs fixing first.

 

[4630]

Driver training runs appear to have started.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...8/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GR

First early morning run as 5Z20/21 was on Tuesday 18th February and it also worked 19th-21st.

It ran as 3Z80/81, to much earlier timings, on 27th and then back to 5Z20/21 on the 28th.

The first evening run of 5Z22/23 was on Wednesday 26th with a further run on the 27th.

800210 did the honours with 5Z22/23 on the 26th. Video here for anyone interested;

https://twitter.com/RussWPhoto/status/1232958309021495296?s=20

 

[class26]

This is really tiresome. My view, which you don't like, is that these resources can be better used delivering a better service to existing locations on the LNER network rather than offering some kind vanity service to appease some vocal local fantasists/stakeholders in a small northern town

BTW Hudderfield is a place I have visited several times. I saw Neil Maddison score a great goal for Darlo there. It is a bit rough and ready and seemed to lack a decent pub away from the station but was a fairly standard, run down, northern town like the ones I grew up in and lived in for most of my life.

PS The Middlesbrough one is a bit different, I might use that one

But isn`t the one a day Huddersfield service in "marginal" time so otherwise would be waiting in the depot for its first service, presumably from Leeds ?

 

[Iskra]

A train to London wont fix the years of economic destruction done to northern towns by our Tory overlords. There has been a constant drift of skilled, secure, well paid jobs away from these areas. That needs fixing first.

What did labour do to fix it when they were in?

Huddersfield is directly in between Manchester and Leeds which are sucking the life out of it. It’s also not had the investment that even Bradford and Wakefield have had relatively recently.

 

[DarloRich]

What did labour do to fix it when they were in?

Lots of helpful stuff. Is this a place for the list?

Huddersfield is directly in between Manchester and Leeds which are sucking the life out of it. It’s also not had the investment that even Bradford and Wakefield have had relatively recently.

and a London train wont fix that.

But isn`t the one a day Huddersfield service in "marginal" time so otherwise would be waiting in the depot for its first service, presumably from Leeds ?

You are still burning up fuel running it empty back to depot and wasting maintenance life. if the income is worth that spend then so be it. I am not sure it will be anything but a more comfortable commuter train between Leeds and Huddersfield.

 

[Tim_UK]

While selective doors mean physical length of platforms is not an issue, at Huddersfield a nine-car would probably foul points/signals at the ends of the three longest platforms.

I think it would have to be Platform 4. It is the only platform long enough with a signalled arrive from Leeds and depart towards Leeds.

 

[Tim_UK]

For some reason many Huddersfield residents used to travel to Wakefield Westgate to change there instead of Leeds, but the direct service doesn't seem to exist anymore.

(From when I used to go Huddersfield to London every week. Now I just go every couple of months)

There used to be hourly Leeds -> London. And hourly Huddersfield -> Wakefield Westgate. A long time ago, these services connected and would wait for each other. Although a bit iffy, because train from Huddersfield had to cross both tracks at Westgate to get out of the way and wait.

Huddersfield -> Wakefield Westgate is no longer a direct train. Leeds -> London is now half hourly.

But even before they stopped the direct Westgate service, I always used to change in Leeds. Just travel to Leeds a bit earlier and have a bit of slack for contingencies. I've even missed the westgate train, got on a TP express to Leeds and just made the connection.

No, I tend to always go Grand Central from Brighouse at it is usually cheaper than Huddersfield, and free parking. Even if one leg is LNER via Leeds, it is still cheaper. If no cheap tickets from Brighouse, then drive to Wakefield.

If I'm going on open tickets, then go via Manchester Piccadilly and buy 2 tickets. Slightly cheaper than a walk up from Huddersfield and just more trains. It is slower by the timetable, but you can always change trains faster than it says.

So already loads of options. Direct trains would be cool, but unless they happen to be at the time I want to go ....

 

[Tim_UK]

I wish this board would allow me to use derogatory language! let me be direct: Huddersfield is a dump. It has few enough jobs and precious few of those that would require a regular service to London. People who make good move out. That is why there are more richer people in Airedale wanting to go to London. The same sort of people aren't living in Huddersfield or Halifax. That may be hard to take but it is the truth. It is the same across the north.

That's a bit harsh. I live in Huddersfield, run a business in Huddersfield, and I have staff working in London most weeks. And we compete with `down south` because our costs are low. We are not the only business in this state. We are high tech and doing great. Huddersfield might not be the nicest, but I can think of far worse.

The university is also really driving investment in many areas.


If that is the case, then why is the West Yorkshire Grand Central service always doing so well? Brighouse, Halifax and Mirfield are arguably more deprived that Huddersfield, but no shortage of customers wanting to go to London.

 

[Iskra]

That's a bit harsh. I live in Huddersfield, run a business in Huddersfield, and I have staff working in London most weeks. And we compete with `down south` because our costs are low. We are not the only business in this state. We are high tech and doing great. Huddersfield might not be the nicest, but I can think of far worse.

The university is also really driving investment in many areas.


If that is the case, then why is the West Yorkshire Grand Central service always doing so well? Brighouse, Halifax and Mirfield are arguably more deprived that Huddersfield, but no shortage of customers wanting to go to London.

Yes, wages are low in Huddersfield, which is both a positive and a negative...

The university is the only thing driving any investment in Huddersfield. It's a ghost town outside of term.

Brighouse and Mirfield are quite affluent... apart from a few small areas. Take a look at house prices in Mirfield!

 

[jimm]

This is really tiresome. My view, which you don't like, is that these resources can be better used delivering a better service to existing locations on the LNER network rather than offering some kind vanity service to appease some vocal local fantasists/stakeholders in a small northern town

BTW Hudderfield is a place I have visited several times. I saw Neil Maddison score a great goal for Darlo there. It is a bit rough and ready and seemed to lack a decent pub away from the station but was a fairly standard, run down, northern town like the ones I grew up in and lived in for most of my life.

PS The Middlesbrough one is a bit different, I might use that one

What is tiresome is that every time someone posts an update of any kind in this thread, up you pop, repeating the same old prejudices about Huddersfield and its population, with a bit of abuse of Halifax thrown in on the side.

Where exactly would these 'resources' - a whole one five-car set, clocking up a few dozen miles a day to get to Huddersfield and back - be better used first thing in the morning or at the end of its working day in mid-evening?

You are still burning up fuel running it empty back to depot and wasting maintenance life. if the income is worth that spend then so be it. I am not sure it will be anything but a more comfortable commuter train between Leeds and Huddersfield.

So what about the GWR IETs that run empty between Stoke Gifford depot and Hereford at the start and end of each day to provide services to and from London? At a place less than half the size of Huddersfield - or is its population of sufficiently high quality to meet your standards to be blessed with London trains?

The commuters will be long gone by the time the train back from London leaves Leeds at about 20.30.

(conversely, the city of Salford seems to have attracted a lot of money/investment in the past decade or so without the need for a direct train service to the capital)

Let's play spot the red herring... if Huddersfield or Halifax (or Bradford come to that, given its less than spiffing LNER service) were all of four miles from Leeds City station, which is the distance from centre of Salford to Manchester Piccadilly, then they might just about cope without direct London trains as well.

 

[Class 170101]

As a Halifax resident who travels regularly to London I'm left wondering if we're sufficiently high value people in your eyes to justify a direct London service, but I can assure you we do exist.

At least there is one unlike Hudderfield. However unfortunately its impossible to have a direct service from everywhere to everywhere.

 

[Bombolino]

What is tiresome is that every time someone posts an update of any kind in this thread, up you pop, repeating the same old prejudices about Huddersfield and its population, with a bit of abuse of Halifax thrown in on the side.

Where exactly would these 'resources' - a whole one five-car set, clocking up a few dozen miles a day to get to Huddersfield and back - be better used first thing in the morning or at the end of its working day in mid-evening?



So what about the GWR IETs that run empty between Stoke Gifford depot and Hereford at the start and end of each day to provide services to and from London? At a place less than half the size of Huddersfield - or is its population of sufficiently high quality to meet your standards to be blessed with London trains?

The commuters will be long gone by the time the train back from London leaves Leeds at about 20.30.



Let's play spot the red herring... if Huddersfield or Halifax (or Bradford come to that, given its less than spiffing LNER service) were all of four miles from Leeds City station, which is the distance from centre of Salford to Manchester Piccadilly, then they might just about cope without direct London trains as well.

That's a bit of a fatuous comment if you don't mind me saying so. Salford and Manchester are different local authority administrations, but are geographically the same place. The distance between Salford Central and Manchester Victoria stations is less than the length of the last hole at Moortown Golf Club. It is only 1.2 miles from Salford Central to Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[jimm]

Excuse me for pointing this out, but whatever the distance is (and Salford is a bit of stretched-out area), I wasn't the person who introduced nonsense about how well Salford does without a London service into this thread.

It's nothing like the situation that applies at Huddersfield, Halifax or Bradford, which aren't just down the road from Leeds City station, unlike Salford's location vis a vis Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[tbtc]

Let's play spot the red herring... if Huddersfield or Halifax (or Bradford come to that, given its less than spiffing LNER service) were all of four miles from Leeds City station, which is the distance from centre of Salford to Manchester Piccadilly, then they might just about cope without direct London trains as well.

So (after reading my post) you're not providing evidence of how Wrexham/ Halifax/ Hartlepool etc have been transformed by gaining a direct London service in recent times (since a direct London service is apparently so important to Huddersfield's economic future)?

 

[Bombolino]

Excuse me for pointing this out, but whatever the distance is (and Salford is a bit of stretched-out area), I wasn't the person who introduced nonsense about how well Salford does without a London service into this thread.

It's nothing like the situation that applies at Huddersfield, Halifax or Bradford, which aren't just down the road from Leeds City station, unlike Salford's location vis a vis Manchester Piccadilly.

Yes, sorry. I'm not very familiar with how to post replies, so I seem to have directed my reply to you instead of the intended recipient.

 

[Bombolino]

So (after reading my post) you're not providing evidence of how Wrexham/ Halifax/ Hartlepool etc have been transformed by gaining a direct London service in recent times (since a direct London service is apparently so important to Huddersfield's economic future)?

Personally, I don't think it has much to do with Huddersfield's economic future. It's just to do with convenience for people who live there. Changing trains with baggage can be awkward at the best of times, especially if you have to go up an down stairs or via subways. Often you have to rush too, because you get very little time. I read quite an amusing article recently about the ten worst places to live in England. In order they were; Peterborough, Doncaster, Huddersfield, Rochdale, Rotherham, Nottinghham, Keighley, Wakefield, Stoke and Halifax. Clearly, whoever wrote this hasn't been to Middlesbrough, Bradford, Hull or Wigan. I was born in Wakefield, but I'm sorry to say that I regard it as a total ****hole today. Believe me, Huddersfield is much, much nicer. Being on the ECML has done very little for Wakefield's prosperity, or that of the other towns/cities mentioned. These days prosperity comes from having good access to motorway networks, not railways. The exaggerated economic benefits of HS2 and NPR are just laughable. It's purely about convenience in my view.

 

[Staffordian]

I read quite an amusing article recently about the ten worst places to live in England. In order they were; Peterborough, Doncaster, Huddersfield, Rochdale, Rotherham, Nottinghham, Keighley, Wakefield, Stoke and Halifax. Clearly, whoever wrote this hasn't been to Middlesbrough, Bradford, Hull or Wigan. I was born in Wakefield, but I'm sorry to say that I regard it as a total ****hole today. Believe me, Huddersfield is much, much nicer. Being on the ECML has done very little for Wakefield's prosperity, or that of the other towns/cities mentioned. These days prosperity comes from having good access to motorway networks, not railways. The exaggerated economic benefits of HS2 and NPR are just laughable. It's purely about convenience in my view.

Based on what you say about Wakefield, it seems that being close to the M1 hasn't done much for its prosperity either !

 

[LittleAH]

This is really tiresome. My view, which you don't like, is that these resources can be better used delivering a better service to existing locations on the LNER network rather than offering some kind vanity service to appease some vocal local fantasists/stakeholders in a small northern town

BTW Hudderfield is a place I have visited several times. I saw Neil Maddison score a great goal for Darlo there. It is a bit rough and ready and seemed to lack a decent pub away from the station but was a fairly standard, run down, northern town like the ones I grew up in and lived in for most of my life.

PS The Middlesbrough one is a bit different, I might use that one

Personally I don’t see the point of a London service but Huddersfield isn’t a small northern town. And there are plenty of cracking pubs within the town centre - clearly you’ve not been here in a very long time.