bramling
Veteran Member
Being on the M1, the Midland Main Line, Thaneslink and having an airport hasn’t exactly done wonders for Luton. Having said that, economically Luton is reasonably okay, it’s just pretty much everything else that’s dire.
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Future LNER London to Huddersfield services
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Being on the M1, the Midland Main Line, Thaneslink and having an airport hasn’t exactly done wonders for Luton. Having said that, economically Luton is reasonably okay, it’s just pretty much everything else that’s dire.
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Where did anyone say that, by themselves, any of these train services would 'transform' the fortunes of these places? They are just one small element in a whole host of things that can help these towns to develop in new ways.
People may not like the idea of the Huddersfield services but much of what has been posted here has had nothing whatever to do with the merits or otherwise of running these trains - either attacks on the town (and other places people don't like, just for good measure) or telling people to drive to Wakefield (very environmentally sustainable) or connect at Leeds, which is what Huddersfield passengers will still have to do the rest of the day anyway, enduring Northern and TPE's efforts to run a train service while doing so.
There is clearly custom for direct services to such places - and money to be made - otherwise Grand Central would have pulled the plug on its unsubsidised services in West Yorkshire a long time ago - they are still running 10 years after their launch.
The Wrexham trains started by Virgin as a spoiler when Wrexham & Shropshire launched are still running long after the demise of W&S - and Virgin then added Shrewsbury services before it lost the franchise. Even worse, Avanti is going to serve Gobowen in a couple of years' time, so I expect someone will be along soon to have a go at Oswestry and its population...
Bombolino
Member
I took the trouble to join this forum in view of some of the rather disparaging comments I read about Huddersfield from people who, in my view, simply don't know what they are talking about. I was born in Wakefield, but lived in Huddersfield for 30 years. I now reside in Lytham St Annes, so I am lucky to have access to the WCML at Preston, the UK's only truly world class rail service, apart from Eurostar. We will also shortly have the additional choice of Grand Central's new services from Blackpool to London.
The case for Huddersfield having a London service is very simple - passenger numbers dictate it. Here are the 2018/19 passenger stats for the main stations in Yorkshire:
1. Leeds - 30.84m
2. York - 9.99m
3. Sheffield - 9.91m
4. Huddersfield - 4.90m
5. Doncaster - 3.92m
More people used Huddersfield than Bradford Interchange and Bradford Forster Square combined (2.61m + 1.95m = 4.57m) and Wakefield Westgate and Kirkgate combined (2.47m + 0.52m = 2.99m).
Huddersfield passenger numbers also eclipse those of many towns/cities that are major destinations from London, such as Derby 3.90m, Northampton 3.3m, Lincoln 1.96m, Exeter 2.62m, Newport 2.85m and Swansea 2.20m.
According to some comments on here, Huddersfield is full of low paid, low skilled people. If that's the case, how come it generates so much passenger traffic? Furthermore, the current levels of traffic are constained by the limited track capacity in and out of the town. As has been rightly pointed out on here many times, there is very little or no capacity to increase services at present. That, of course, will change when the Westtown (Dewsbury) to Huddersfield is increased from two lines to four and is electrified all the way through to Leeds. That is definitely happening. These improvements can only grow Huddersfield traffic even further. Huddersfield is a very big commuter town for both Leeds and Manchester. There are a lot of big earners on the payroll of Leeds and Manchester companies, so their incomes won't be reflected in stats about wages in Huddersfield.
The big shame in my view is that the proposed Alliance Rail/GNWR (Grand Central) services to Euston down the WCML didn't materialise a few years ago. Blackpool is getting additional London trains that it doesn't really need from Grand Central, because it is well served by Avanti, who in my view are on a far higher level. There is huge potential for trains from Bradford, Halifax and Huddersfield to access the WCML at Stockport, via Stalybridge. The paths created from Blackpool could have been used for that. This route would give the opportunity for direct services to both Euston and Birmingham without the need to go via Leeds. Maybe that is an option that will be explored again in the future.
The case for Huddersfield having a London service is very simple - passenger numbers dictate it. Here are the 2018/19 passenger stats for the main stations in Yorkshire:
1. Leeds - 30.84m
2. York - 9.99m
3. Sheffield - 9.91m
4. Huddersfield - 4.90m
5. Doncaster - 3.92m
More people used Huddersfield than Bradford Interchange and Bradford Forster Square combined (2.61m + 1.95m = 4.57m) and Wakefield Westgate and Kirkgate combined (2.47m + 0.52m = 2.99m).
Huddersfield passenger numbers also eclipse those of many towns/cities that are major destinations from London, such as Derby 3.90m, Northampton 3.3m, Lincoln 1.96m, Exeter 2.62m, Newport 2.85m and Swansea 2.20m.
According to some comments on here, Huddersfield is full of low paid, low skilled people. If that's the case, how come it generates so much passenger traffic? Furthermore, the current levels of traffic are constained by the limited track capacity in and out of the town. As has been rightly pointed out on here many times, there is very little or no capacity to increase services at present. That, of course, will change when the Westtown (Dewsbury) to Huddersfield is increased from two lines to four and is electrified all the way through to Leeds. That is definitely happening. These improvements can only grow Huddersfield traffic even further. Huddersfield is a very big commuter town for both Leeds and Manchester. There are a lot of big earners on the payroll of Leeds and Manchester companies, so their incomes won't be reflected in stats about wages in Huddersfield.
The big shame in my view is that the proposed Alliance Rail/GNWR (Grand Central) services to Euston down the WCML didn't materialise a few years ago. Blackpool is getting additional London trains that it doesn't really need from Grand Central, because it is well served by Avanti, who in my view are on a far higher level. There is huge potential for trains from Bradford, Halifax and Huddersfield to access the WCML at Stockport, via Stalybridge. The paths created from Blackpool could have been used for that. This route would give the opportunity for direct services to both Euston and Birmingham without the need to go via Leeds. Maybe that is an option that will be explored again in the future.
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Old Yard Dog
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Station usage figures don't prove anything. Passengers use stations where the fastest trains and the most trains go. York isn't more important than Huddersfield and Huddersfield isn't more important than Bradford. York simply has more passengers as, thanks to George Hudson, it is on the ECML and has a far better train service than its larger neighbours. And Huddersfield has far better links to Manchester, Liverpool, York, Sheffield, Hull and Newcastle than Bradford. If you take your argument to its logical conclusion, Crewe would be one of the most important towns in the country.
Bombolino
Member
The station passenger stats are based on the number of "Ins" and "Outs" at stations, not the number of passengers passing through. Someone changing at York to get to Scarborough would not be included in York's figures. Also, contrasting York and Crewe, York is a major inland tourist destination, with around 200 hotels/guest houses within two miles of the city centre. The bulk of travellers using York station are tourists, not locals. By contract, Crewe won't attract too many visitors, hence the big difference in numbers. Preston has unbelievably good train services, but only 4.65m passengers used it in 2018/19, 250,000 less than Huddersfield. The difference is that Huddersfield station serves Huddersfield people, whereas Preston has a lot of out of town people who leave their cars there, me being one of them. When the line to Leeds is electrified and the track capacity expanded, I'm sure there will be a big upturn in passenger numbers at Huddersfield.
Old Yard Dog
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You make some very valid points Bombolino. York attracts many more visitors than Bradford and Huddersfield combined. It also has a vibrant pub scene and York races probably attract more visitors by rail than Huddersfield and Bradford's football and rugby league teams put together. Huddersfield and Bradford do have some decent little real ale outlets in their centres but Bradford, in particular, has lost huge numbers of pubs over the last 20-30 years. I wouldn't be surprised if York also has more commuters.
But when I made my original post, I was responding to the gentleman who compared station usage figures at Huddersfield and Bradford. And what I really had in mind was where Yorkshire people choose to start their journeys not where they end it. It's a pity station usage figures don't separate people starting return journeys from people who use that station as their destination.
Huddersfield has fast, decent connections to lots of places while Bradford has hardly any. Indeed it takes 100 minutes even to get to Doncaster with Grand Central en route to London while it's only 22 minutes from York (and 52 minutes from Mirfield near Huddersfield). Many business people from Huddersfield and Bradford drive to Wakefield to speed up their journeys to the capital.
When you add in the exorbitant cost of all day city centre parking, it's little wonder that many people from Bradford choose either to drive or to start their journeys at suburban stations like Shipley, Frizinghall, New Pudsey or Low Moor rather then Forster Square or Interchange. Nearly all Bradford-bound trains stop at these small stations. York is the railhead for a large rural hinterland with fewer alternatives.
Bradford's situation is not going to improve with the collapse of Northern Connect and the non-delivery of the new services which were promised to Sheffield, Liverpool and Manchester Piccadilly/Airport.
But when I made my original post, I was responding to the gentleman who compared station usage figures at Huddersfield and Bradford. And what I really had in mind was where Yorkshire people choose to start their journeys not where they end it. It's a pity station usage figures don't separate people starting return journeys from people who use that station as their destination.
Huddersfield has fast, decent connections to lots of places while Bradford has hardly any. Indeed it takes 100 minutes even to get to Doncaster with Grand Central en route to London while it's only 22 minutes from York (and 52 minutes from Mirfield near Huddersfield). Many business people from Huddersfield and Bradford drive to Wakefield to speed up their journeys to the capital.
When you add in the exorbitant cost of all day city centre parking, it's little wonder that many people from Bradford choose either to drive or to start their journeys at suburban stations like Shipley, Frizinghall, New Pudsey or Low Moor rather then Forster Square or Interchange. Nearly all Bradford-bound trains stop at these small stations. York is the railhead for a large rural hinterland with fewer alternatives.
Bradford's situation is not going to improve with the collapse of Northern Connect and the non-delivery of the new services which were promised to Sheffield, Liverpool and Manchester Piccadilly/Airport.
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Class 170101
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Bradford and Halifax of course have services to Kings Cross rather than Euston now provided by GC, as for reaching Euston and Birmingham I don't think you have to go to Leeds. Huddersfield then Manchester is an option.
Kings Cross and Euston are around a mile apart (and probably less) and well signposted via quiet roads.
What exorbitant cost? It is £4 a day to park at Bradford Forster Square station - and at Huddersfield Bus Station multi-storey, just up the road from the station there. By contrast, it is £11 a day Monday to Friday to park at Wakefield Westgate.
The issue in Bradford is surely that there are just 50 parking spaces at Forster Square and none at all at Interchange. By contrast, Shipley can take 150 cars and New Pudsey 270 - no wonder, as it was built in the late 1960s with the aim of attracting motorists in mind before the Parkway name came into use at Bristol, with the London-Bradford services calling at New Pudsey when they served Bradford Exchange and then Interchange.
Bombolino
Member
Well, I see they finally announced it today. As someone rightly predicted, the new service will leave Huddersfield ridiculously early, departing at 05.50. It will go via Dewsbury, departing 06.01 and arriving in Leeds at 06.16. Passengers will then have to sit on the train at Leeds and wait 24 minutes for an 06.40 departure. It will arrive in London at 08.51. It will be a five car Azuma unit that joins with another similar unit. It's better than nothing, but really the whole thing is ruined by the 24 minute wait in Leeds. It could and should have been so much better.
dk1
Veteran Member
It's a start though. Hopefully things will improve on future timetables.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Apologies, re-read your post and realised you mentioned it... I need more coffee this morning!
One advantage of the 20+ minute wait is the opportunity to get off and get some decent food in Leeds, as Huddersfield station isn't great for refreshments apart from the buffet on the island platform- and their stuff doesn't travel well!
The very mention of Darlo playing Huddersfield dates the reference a fair bit!
tbtc
Veteran Member
I'm quoting a couple of comments above to show the kind of suggestion that a direct London service will be an economic boost to places like Huddersfield (even though nobody seems to be able to evidence any economic boost to Hartlepool/ Halifax/ Wrexham, despite them all having daily London services for some time now)
I've no problem with Huddersfield getting London services (this looks like the kind of use of stock at marginal times that BR used to be good at) - I just think that we should have the discussion based on the merits of this proposal (e.g. additional route learning and longer shifts versus the number of additional passengers) rather than the pretence above that this will have much economic impact.
Some people want this new service, some people are underwhelmed - I could similarly argue that other places also "deserve" some token London service - but let's not over-sell the idea of it bringing lots of money into the place.
...because these kind of extensions can be done using marginal resources and are a nice bit of window dressing to make the franchises look innovative and interested (whilst they focus most of their resources of the inter-city stuff).
It's great PR, it looks good in the eyes of various noisy "stakeholders", it's a worthwhile loss leader
The very mention of Darlo playing Huddersfield dates the reference a fair bit!
I saw Darlo play there, a midweek game in about 2002 (can't remember if it was league or cup though - about the only thing I remember is that I bought an Argentina shirt in the club shop - presumably they sold them because of the similar colours to the Terriers shirts?)
DarloRich
Veteran Member
All OT ( sorry)
I have been to Huddersfield many times since!!
League Cup. Darlo lost 2-0.
I have been to Huddersfield many times since!!
League Cup. Darlo lost 2-0.
None of those remarks actually amounts to saying that the existence of this service will 'transform' - your word, not mine - the economic fortunes of Huddersfield.
I should think a fair few Leeds-based LNER train crew will have worked services to Huddersfield in the past, if they use to work for BR or have moved over from TPE or Northern, so will probably not need to spend lots of times on route learning - and who says there will be longer shifts? Do you have inside knowledge of LNER crew rostering?
As far as I can see, no one here is over-selling the idea of it bringing lots and lots of money into Huddersfield's economy - apart from those who want to build up this claim in order have a go at the idea of the service existing in the first place
So on the one hand if BR used rolling stock creatively in marginal time, that was a good thing, but when a franchise operator does it, it is window-dressing and PR spin? Make your mind up.
And the DfT is not big on supporting loss-leaders, especially when the promised premium payments from East Coast intercity operators have failed to roll into government coffers.
Whilst the 24 mins is clearly not ideal there are a number of other things that need to be taken into consideration.
Firstly the Huddersfield to Leeds Route is extremely congested and the service will need to be pathed around the existing broadly clockface timetable. (4 fasts per hour on the 15 mins), between that are 2 stoppers per hour in opposite half hours and the Hull services in the other 2. Then the Leeds London’s are on a fixed timetable path that probably don’t align.
Added to that I believe LNER were always a bit nervous of splitting/joining at Leeds, if one of the incoming portions is late the main London service is screwed - and the Trans Pennine Route is notorious for snowballing delays so LNER would be justified in wanting a bit of a buffer.
Class 170101
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Not at that time of the morning. Its more likely to be if possessions overrun between Doncaster / Leeds and Huddersfield.
fair point, I realised after I posted what time it sets off! Although looking at National Rail Enquires there’s a 05-54 stopper that gets into Leeds 15 mins behind the LNER so add a few mins onto that and now you’ve only got 6 or 7 mins turnaround at Leeds to couple up, crew to change ends, load up etc which gives no resilience at all for a late arrival - especially when following a stopper in all the way.
Class 170101
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In a way I'm surprised they bothered calling at Dewsbury. If they didn't then the train could have been routed via Wakefield Kirkgate instead.
It might be worth noting that it currently appears that the new lner 0850 ex - Huddersfield is in the current path tpe 0849 Huddersfield - Leeds.
Dewsbury just increases the potential custom for both Leeds and London, direct.
It appears that the tpe has been moved (0554 vice 0549 ex-huddersfield), running five minutes later than current.
I assume it must go via Leeds, to be attached to the current 0640 dep from Leeds. I doubt there is the ability or capacity to run via Kirkgate and up to Doncaster to attach there. There would be no path available into King's Cross for the direct Huddersfield service.
James90012
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This is a stepping stone, I would expect the new ECML timetable next year (maybe) will give better opportunities to cut out some of the extended joining time.
Class 170101
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I was thinking of running the train to Leeds but not via Dewsbury but instead non-stop via Normanton and Woodlesford.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
But that puts it over to the higher numbered side of Leeds station, away from the unit it joins to- and then would have to cross a large part of the station throat to head back out towards Westgate.
gledhill56
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LNER appear to be taking advantage of the reduced timetable with some 5Qxx VVR/VST paths between Leeds and Huddersfield for today (23rd). Presumably driver training runs.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...3/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GR
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...3/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GR
thealm
Member
Looks like there Cancelled
Okay... Got to ask : VVR? What is that standing for? (it's a new one on me).
VST / VSTP of course standing for very short term planning.
Jamesrob637
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Very Very Ridiculous
mikestone1952
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VSTP Variation I assume is what VVR stands for.
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Track access application has appeared today for the weekend services, stating that they already have weekday track access - I can't find any despite searching both ORR and Network Rail.
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Track access application has appeared today for the weekend services, stating that they already have weekday track access - I can't find any despite searching both ORR and Network Rail.
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Yeah, I was just looking at some VSTP schedule lists, and it kept popping up with VVAR, so I'm going to say it is a strong possibility of VSTP Variation, achieved by copying an existing VSTP and altering it. Makes sense.
mikestone1952
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I hadn't gone into it in any depth but my assumption was it was a WTT schedule amended by a control office rather than train planners e.g.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/06008/2020-03-24/detailed
is 1M11 Glasgow-Euston sleeper made a light engine.
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Found the track access now for the SX train - it was in the original Virgin East Coast application, although oddly the consolidated LNER track access contract, where I somehow managed to miss it, shows one peak and one off peak service towards London.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/06008/2020-03-24/detailed
is 1M11 Glasgow-Euston sleeper made a light engine.
;
Found the track access now for the SX train - it was in the original Virgin East Coast application, although oddly the consolidated LNER track access contract, where I somehow managed to miss it, shows one peak and one off peak service towards London.
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