Future of 360s

[northwichcat]

Apparently the 360s are being replaced as part of the Crossrail order. Is that all the 360s or just some of them? And is the future of the 360s that are being replaced by new stock known?

 

[swt_passenger]

Logically it will be whole 'Connect' 360 fleet that is replaced. The single odd unit that is dedicated to the T123/T4 shuttle won't be needed because XR will have 4 tph to the airport (T4).

There is nowhere obvious that stands out as a destination for the units - although I'd suggest GA for conversion to match the other 360 fleet.

 

[jopsuk]

The two sane options:
1. Remove a trailer, convert interior, send to GEML as fleet expansion
2. Remove a trailer, convert interior, rebuild cab and send to WCML as 350 fleet expansion

 

[swt_passenger]

I was just about to ask about 'ECML' before you fixed it...

 

[DarloRich]

Why remove a trailer?

If you need to remove a trailer could you get some new "driving cars" built and make up another train?

(are they not owned by the airport authorites? )

 

[Monty]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, someone has to buy them off Heathrow Airports Limited (formally BAA) first. Otherwise they are going nowhere, I wouldn't be surprised if Heathrow wanted to keep them for an internal mass rapid transit system.

 

[northwichcat]

Why remove a trailer?

I was thinking the same.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, someone has to buy them off Heathrow Airports Limited (formally BAA) first. Otherwise they are going nowhere,

If the company has an asset like usable trains in their possession then why wouldn't they be willing to lease them out or sell them if they don't find an alternative use for them?

 

[swt_passenger]

Agreed they have to sell them, but where could such an internal system be run, without additional infrastructure? Hex and Crossrail will be putting 8 tph through the T123 station and the various junctions anyway?

 

[Monty]

I was thinking the same.



If the company has an asset like usable trains in their possession then why wouldn't they be willing to lease them out or sell them if they don't find an alternative use for them?

Who says they haven't got a long term plan in mind for their use? And if they do sell them it doesn't necessarily mean they'll sell them to a UK ROSCO. The Suvarnabhumi Airport Link in Thailand use the Class 360 and are expected to expand it's network in the next few years, it is possible they could be sold abroad.

The units may just be added to Hex fleet for additional flexibility.

 

[jopsuk]

Why remove a trailer?

A tiny number of five car units in a four car fleet that works 4/8/12 car services would be operationally a pain- might as well either store the trailers or strip them for parts.

 

[MCW]

Another theoretical option... cascade to an electrified MML?

 

[swt_passenger]

Another theoretical option... cascade to an electrified MML?

It's only 5 units in total. What would use such a small fleet?

 

[222001]

It's only 5 units in total. What would use such a small fleet?

I don't think 100mph units for a 125mph railway would be very 'ideal'.

 

[MK Tom]

How much work would be required to retrofit corridor connections for working with 350s?

5-car units on the WCML would preclude their use in 12-car sets seeing as many platforms would be unable to take a 13-car set. We'd need a whole load of new stop signs for 5, 9 and 10 car sets too!

 

[A0]

Another theoretical option... cascade to an electrified MML?

To do what?

Thameslink's already got its order confirmed.

EMT will be looking for long-distance units, ideally 125mph ones given that's what the HSTs and Meridians are currently capable of.

They're unlikely to be replacing too many of the DMUs (150s, 153, 15, 158s) as they tend to cover routes which are not planned for wiring any time soon - e.g. Norwich - Liverpool, Lincolnshire, Derby - Crewe, Derby - Matlock.

 

[Haydn1971]

Logically they get moved to Greater Anglia ? Is it really that big an issue that they don't have end gangways ? It's not ideal, but Northern and TransPennine often work paired up units without interconnection.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The units may just be added to Hex fleet for additional flexibility.

Just a thought, and not something I'd want to happen, but if HEx were to expand their fleet once HC is subsumed into Crossrail, perhaps the 360s could be swapped for 5 of Northern's 333s (20 vehicles)? Of course that creates issues with regard to micro-fleets (as Northern would still have some 333s left over) though the WY electrics are already full of that (3x321s &5x322s) so perhaps NL fitters are already pretty good at coping with those issues. The transferred 333s could then be refurbished to 332 specification. The 360s (25 vehicles) could be reformed into 3x 6-car units and 2x 3-car units (one trailer would be surplus) allowing them to run peak services on the Leeds-Skipton route at the maximum feasible length of 6 cars. It'd probably be far too complicated to work of course, it's a shame they're such an awkwardly small fleet.

It's also a shame we couldn't tack a few extra cars onto the current 350/3 & 350/4 order to turn them into more standardised lengths! As 5-car units they're awkward so perhaps if they could be converted to DC or DV operation, SWT would be the best place for them as 5/10-car operation will be the standard on the Windsor lines?

 

[Buttsy]

Thames Valley branches perhaps?

3 car Marlow, 3 car Henley, 3 car Windsor. 2x8 car for peak services???

 

[cjmillsnun]

If a coach does come out, what happens to the removed coaches?

Do they get stored or offered to another TOC who runs Desiros? SWT may want them (I think they'd work on 450s)

 

[DarloRich]

A tiny number of five car units in a four car fleet that works 4/8/12 car services would be operationally a pain- might as well either store the trailers or strip them for parts.

Ah - I didn’t realise they were 5 cars!

However,would that make much difference on the WCML if you intermixed the fleets? 5 car or 9 car trains wouldn’t be an issue but i doubt 13 car trains would fit in the platforms or depots!

 

[MK Tom]

Ah - I didn’t realise they were 5 cars!

However,would that make much difference on the WCML if you intermixed the fleets? 5 car or 9 car trains wouldn’t be an issue but i doubt 13 car trains would fit in the platforms or depots!

I pretty much said exactly this on the last page and nobody noticed!

I'm curious to know if 360s and 350s could work together without the former receiving end gangways.

 

[jopsuk]

they could probably (subject to software mods) work together quite cheerfully, but it might require changes in eg revenue and guard working practices.

 

[Yew]

It's only 5 units in total. What would use such a small fleet?

The only thing I could think of would be maybe a new Nottingham to sheffield service or something. or running something else up that way.

 

[northwichcat]

Ah - I didn’t realise they were 5 cars!

However,would that make much difference on the WCML if you intermixed the fleets? 5 car or 9 car trains wouldn’t be an issue but i doubt 13 car trains would fit in the platforms or depots!

If the proposal for the LM changes north of Crewe goes ahead then maybe the a small fleet of 360s could be designated to an hourly Liverpool-Birmingham service or an hourly Preston-Birmingham service.

 

[Bantamzen]

Just a thought, and not something I'd want to happen, but if HEx were to expand their fleet once HC is subsumed into Crossrail, perhaps the 360s could be swapped for 5 of Northern's 333s (20 vehicles)? Of course that creates issues with regard to micro-fleets (as Northern would still have some 333s left over) though the WY electrics are already full of that (3x321s &5x322s) so perhaps NL fitters are already pretty good at coping with those issues. The transferred 333s could then be refurbished to 332 specification. The 360s (25 vehicles) could be reformed into 3x 6-car units and 2x 3-car units (one trailer would be surplus) allowing them to run peak services on the Leeds-Skipton route at the maximum feasible length of 6 cars. It'd probably be far too complicated to work of course, it's a shame they're such an awkwardly small fleet.

I'm not sure stations like Shipley and others on the Airedale & Wharefdale lines could cope with 6 car units (other than platform 3 at Shipley, and Keighley, Bingley, Skipton). Maybe the 4 cars could be cascaded to Northern (or whomever the new franchise holder is) for stoppers post TPE electrification between Leeds/Selby - Manchester?

 

[southern442]

I don't think anyone has suggested it yet, why not send them to southern to work 10-car journeys? the only problem would be no end gangways.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think anyone has suggested it yet, why not send them to southern to work 10-car journeys? the only problem would be no end gangways.

Why would 'Southern' want a small 5 unit sub fleet capable of providing just 2 x 10 car trains though, when even before they become available from H-Conn the TSGN franchise (as it will be by then) is going to be so overwhelmed with Electrostars that they'll be 'giving them away'?

(They'll be sufficiently different to the Desiro City of the combined TSGN franchise that they'll still be a small sub fleet.)

 

[Class377/5]

How much work would be required to retrofit corridor connections for working with 350s?

Not impossible as 360201-204 were built as 350001-004 with corridor connections.

 

[NickBucks]

On the basis that the Davies Commission recommends new runways at Heathrow some form of rail link will be needed- any new terminals will be some distance from the central T1/2/3. I doubt that Crossrail or HeX will go there so the 360 units will find a home as a shuttle service.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm not sure stations like Shipley and others on the Airedale & Wharefdale lines could cope with 6 car units (other than platform 3 at Shipley, and Keighley, Bingley, Skipton). Maybe the 4 cars could be cascaded to Northern (or whomever the new franchise holder is) for stoppers post TPE electrification between Leeds/Selby - Manchester?

AFAIK most platforms at local stops on the Airedale route are currently only long enough for 4x23m (333s) other than Shipley P3, but the restriction looking further into the future is P2 at Shipley- it's sandwiched between the Leeds/Ilkley-Bradford curve and the Skipton-Bradford curve so would be impossible to make any longer than 6 cars (though I'm not sure if that's 23m or 20m stock) without having to completely rebuild the whole thing. That's what I was getting at with the 3+6 proposal, though you're right that most platforms would need extending even for that.