Future of Class 180 Units Discussion

[Mitchell Hurd]

Possibly use with Network Rail as 125mph test trains, would take the strain on the NMT HST set which at some point will become life expired, and could replace the 37/67 MK2 sets

Would take some conversion but given their passenger use is limited, it wouldn't be a stupid option and much better than scrap

Good one - better taking out at night time (say midnight?) then that way there's less disruption should it fail in service.

 

[swt_passenger]

The idea of using 180s as dedicated rescue trains gave me a good laugh. If you sent all 4 of them to the stranded train, one of them might make it!

At least with four they’d be able to approach via four completely different “useful diversionary routes“ that will probably be built by then...

 

[MB162435]

Good one - better taking out at night time (say midnight?) then that way there's less disruption should it fail in service.

Suppose it depends where it is operating, and you have a better chance of limping being a multiple unit to a siding at least off the main running lines them you have with a loco or the NMT, but night time testing is always safer as the railways get busier as 180s can be stroppy at times

Also the 180s would be near enough the same age as the NMT was at the time of conversion by the time they became available, so despite the high cost of conversion they should have a good length testing career ahead of them if it happened

Along with the cost, route availability would also be something else to consider before it happened, no good if they were barred from a large part of the network

 

[43096]

Suppose it depends where it is operating, and you have a better chance of limping being a multiple unit to a siding at least off the main running lines them you have with a loco or the NMT, but night time testing is always safer as the railways get busier as 180s can be stroppy at times

But if you look at how NR uses its test trains they aren't diagrammed to be restricted to night time, nor could they be without losing a whole load of flexibility and capability. The NMT, for one, is pretty intensively used and the whole point of having a 125mph capable train was to allow it to fit in on the mainline with other traffic. If the 180s genuinely aren't reliable enough - and that would be in the view of fleet engineers, not the enthusiast platform end/internet view - then they aren't right for the job.

 

[MB162435]

But if you look at how NR uses its test trains they aren't diagrammed to be restricted to night time, nor could they be without losing a whole load of flexibility and capability. The NMT, for one, is pretty intensively used and the whole point of having a 125mph capable train was to allow it to fit in on the mainline with other traffic. If the 180s genuinely aren't reliable enough - and that would be in the view of fleet engineers, not the enthusiast platform end/internet view - then they aren't right for the job.

If they end up being based at a depot with little or no experience with Alstom products or 180s then reliability wouldn't be good at all, although Grand Central and GWR's 2nd spell didn't do too bad to be fair with reliability so they're certainly not a no no when it comes to test train use but maybe not first choice

 

[Trainician]

The class 180s are going to EMR aren't they?

 

[py_megapixel]

The class 180s are going to EMR aren't they?

Temporarily yes, but only until they are replaced with new class 810 Hitachi units.

 

[D365]

Has anyone proposed adding a carriage to each of the GC Class 180s?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

The class 180s are going to EMR aren't they?

Don't worry, I was aware of that. Was thinking for after they'd finish with EMR.

If Grand Central do get them, after their quite short stay with EMR then hopefully they can run 10 coaches at least to and from Kings Cross and York or Doncaster before running as 5 coaches to and from the East Coast Mainline.

 

[hexagon789]

For who, though? It’s not like there are plenty of drivers who sign them. If you really want this, a short HST set would be a better bet.

As you can probably tell, I was struggling of things to think of!

 

[hexagon789]

Has anyone proposed adding a carriage to each of the GC Class 180s?

Using what? Redundant Pacers?

But seriously - with what?

 

[Speed43125]

Using what? Redundant Pacers?

But seriously - with what?

Presumably by splitting up a set or two and using the centre carriages, a little like gets proposed for 22x every now and again.

 

[43096]

Using what? Redundant Pacers?

But seriously - with what?

I was assuming by robbing the centre cars out of the four EMR sets when they become available?

 

[hexagon789]

Presumably by splitting up a set or two and using the centre carriages, a little like gets proposed for 22x every now and again.

Oh I see, leaving spare driving cars as with Virgin parting with some intermediates to XC a while back.

 

[hexagon789]

I was assuming by robbing the centre cars out of the four EMR sets when they become available?

I don't know why but I thought it was tongue in cheek rather than serious so I thought it was another of those fantasy ideas of sticking random stuff about the place!

 

[D365]

Oh I see, leaving spare driving cars as with Virgin parting with some intermediates to XC a while back.

Bingo.

I don't know why but I thought it was tongue in cheek rather than serious so I thought it was another of those fantasy ideas of sticking random stuff about the place!

You were right, it is a fantasy idea. It's just hard to tell on this subforum sometimes

 

[hexagon789]

You were right, it is a fantasy idea. It's just hard to tell on this subforum sometimes

No offence, but that was what I took it to be to start with. I suppose one could though shorten a set or two ex-EMR and insert the intermediates to give Grand Central six-car sets if demand was sufficient.

 

[Trainician]

I think cross-country might take all the DMU fleet of EMR except the class 170s

 

[hexagon789]

I think cross-country might take all the DMU fleet of EMR except the class 170s

222s would seem logical, 180s less so.

 

[Trainician]

222s would seem logical, 180s less so.

Ok but grand central might soon start bringing bmus to replace the Class 180s so it is very unlikely that grand central will take in the class 180s after EMR

 

[hexagon789]

Ok but grand central might soon start bringing bmus to replace the Class 180s

Hmm, I can very much see them going the way of Hull Trains and ordering some 802s or similar.

In which case the last operator of 180s no longer uses them and you have to ask - is there any real use for them?

 

[Energy]

Ok but grand central might soon start bringing bmus to replace the Class 180s

I don't think they will yet, they seem happy with the 180s and have refurbished them. They may replace them in the future but I don't think it will happen soon after Covid.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

It fear of being shot down, if they are Diesel generator, electric motor units currently, what would it take to get a pantograph on them and make them Bi-mode? That'd make them very desirable again for use North of border with the number of 156s still floating around under wires
In addition Scotrail have experience of Alstom products Class 334s

 

[Energy]

It fear of being shot down, if they are Diesel generator, electric motor units currently, what would it take to get a pantograph on them and make them Bi-mode? That'd make them very desirable again for use North of border with the number of 156s still floating around under wires
In addition Scotrail have experience of Alstom products Class 334s

I believe they are diesel hydraulic not diesel electric

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I believe they are diesel hydraulic not diesel electric

There we go then, I'll shut up lol

 

[hst43102]

It fear of being shot down, if they are Diesel generator, electric motor units currently, what would it take to get a pantograph on them and make them Bi-mode? That'd make them very desirable again for use North of border with the number of 156s still floating around under wires
In addition Scotrail have experience of Alstom products Class 334s

If they were DEMUs they would be class 280!

 

[CW2]

How about putting them to use on the North & West route, i.e. Holyhead / Manchester to Shrewsbury, Hereford, Cardiff - South Wales?

 

[swt_passenger]

No offence, but that was what I took it to be to start with. I suppose one could though shorten a set or two ex-EMR and insert the intermediates to give Grand Central six-car sets if demand was sufficient.

Surely you’d want all of 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 for maximum micro-diagramming hassle...

 

[43096]

How about putting them to use on the North & West route, i.e. Holyhead / Manchester to Shrewsbury, Hereford, Cardiff - South Wales?

Can I suggest you take a look at what TfW are doing with their fleet replacement?

 

[Neptune]

I honestly can’t see GC taking them after EMR usage. They have 10 sets which are more than enough for what they run. Remember that they’d have to pay for the 4 extra sets and I suspect that any service expansions planned may now be on the back burner due to COVID. They certainly won’t be ordering any new units anytime soon bearing in mind the lack of income they’ve had over the last 4 months.

Now the idea of extending the GC sets to 6 cars is a reasonable idea so long as it is technically possible. There are 12 centre cars in the 4 EMR units which would leave 2 spare. They’d need internal work on most of them as there are 4 x std class vehicles, 4 x FC vehicles and 4 x std/buffet vehicles. Surmising they’d take the 4 std class vehicles they’d need to make 6 of the others into identical vehicles.

However I do have my doubts that this would actually happen.

This will all leave an off lease micro fleet of a type of train that is already a micro fleet with a chequered past so it could be a case of the scrap man for these 4.