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Future of Diesel traction in the future and will unelectrified lines have another fuel type?

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NotATrainspott

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As much as I consider it akin to the 1158 from Inverness going through Kyle of Lochalsh station at 50mph and into the drink..... One upside to the Brexit will be an ability to source major tenders from outside of the (expensive) EU. As unlikely as it is to happen, it would be interesting to see how much someone else could do the entire job for. As much as I would like to see train & infrastructure building here, this and several previous governments have destroyed it, thus we must import most things.

What? Stadler is Swiss. Hitachi is Japanese. Furrer+Frey is Swiss. The Class 66s were built in the USA. There's absolutely no restriction on suppliers only coming from the EU. The reason it looks that way is that the vast majority of suppliers to the European rail industry have been based in EU countries. That's changing now.
 
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AndrewE

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Once built, pipelines are cheap.
I don't think you can assume that hydrogen is just another liquid fuel. It's highly explosive, and even goes through copper pipes and tubes. As far as I know it's only used in top-tier COMAH sites (i.e. major hazard with intense HSE scrutiny - which came after the Flixborough disaster. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flixborough_disaster) It will be a real challenge to get it used safely anywhere else - and that's not even thinking about the loss of efficiency in making and then using it.
 

cjmillsnun

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I don't think you can assume that hydrogen is just another liquid fuel. It's highly explosive, and even goes through copper pipes and tubes. As far as I know it's only used in top-tier COMAH sites (i.e. major hazard with intense HSE scrutiny - which came after the Flixborough disaster. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flixborough_disaster) It will be a real challenge to get it used safely anywhere else - and that's not even thinking about the loss of efficiency in making and then using it.

It is seriously being looked at as a replacement for natural gas running through the existing distribution networks.
 

AndrewE

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It is seriously being looked at as a replacement for natural gas running through the existing distribution networks.
at what temperature? I hope that the people doing the "serious looking" have got their feet on the ground...
 

cjmillsnun

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at what temperature? I hope that the people doing the "serious looking" have got their feet on the ground...

As most of the medium and low pressure mains are now plastic it will have to be above 0 deg C. The people doing the serious looking are the gas transporters who are well aware of what their networks can and cannot handle. A pilot will be happening in Leeds.
 

AndrewE

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As most of the medium and low pressure mains are now plastic it will have to be above 0 deg C. The people doing the serious looking are the gas transporters who are well aware of what their networks can and cannot handle. A pilot will be happening in Leeds.
In that case I'm glad I live a long way away!
 

AndrewE

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Polyethylene is quite capable of containing hydrogen gas. The HSE and Ofgem are involved and are satisfied that this is viable.
And how much polythene gas pipework is there inside houses? The national grid (or whatever it is called now) can't even be trusted to transport natural gas to your meter! If you still have an iron/steel pipe into your house you should be concerned...
 
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squizzler

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I had a thought and a search indicated it had been mentioned in the cl769 thread (Link pending when I can find it without losing this post!).

Gas turbines are only efficient when running at constant full power. With the advent of the tai-mode locos (class 93) which incorporate pantograph, battery and diesel, is it worth using a gas turbine as the onboard prime mover? The turbine would be lighter than the diesel would be, allowing the battery to be larger, and therefore able to run for a greater proportion of time at maximum output than would the case with the diesel, or to be turned off for longer with the loco running on battery.
 

najaB

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With the advent of the tai-mode locos (class 93) which incorporate pantograph, battery and diesel, is it worth using a gas turbine as the onboard prime mover?
From a theoretical point of view, yes it would as gas turbines are something like twice as efficient at turning fuel into electricity. However, diesel engines are much more ubiquitous (meaning that it's easier to get spare parts, etc.) so they're likely to continue to dominate.
 

HSTEd

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And the losses over that distance horrific
What?

We ship power three thousand kilometres with only a few percent losses now. The latest generation ultra high voltage DC power transmission systems manage 1.5%/1000km or so.

Losses from natural gas systems are typically several percent in the distribution phase alone, and hydrogen will be worse since it can literally diffuse through common metals.

Given the efficiency of current electrolysis systems, hydrogen as an electricity source is a terrible idea on Earth, it would be literally more efficient to build a UHVDC power line to the antipodes than use it.

Hydrogen is a terrible fuel, and the sooner people accept this the better.


The real problem in railway electrification is caused by gold plating of the 25kV specification, and the unreasonable decision to jettison 750Vdc systems with no attempt to improve their safety.
[Things like insulating the sides of the rails themselves, and leaving rails in the centre segment of station platforms normally dead would substantially reduce fatalities]
The collapsing cost and improving efficiency of power electronics provide us with an opportunity to build a low cost electrification system that can deliver what we require on relatively lightly travelled railways.

The fact that Network Rail is finally abandoning the idiotic position that 25kV has a lower capital cost than third rail is a laudable move in the right direction.

It is seriously being looked at as a replacement for natural gas running through the existing distribution networks.

Most of this research is funded by people who own distribution networks and are desperate to avoid the systems becoming stranded assets.

The problem is that hydrogen can't possibly compete with heat storage at the consumer end, which avoids maintaining an enormous distribution infrastructure.
 

HSTEd

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It's an energy storage medium, rather than a fuel.

Well it's pretty terrible as that as well.
There are more hydrogen atoms in a cubic metre of liquid natural gas than in a cubic metre of cryogenic hydrogen.

And the former is far less deeply cryogenic.

When your energy storage is a deep cryogen that only has a specific gravity of 0.08..... you have an issue.
 

reddragon

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In the future everything will be electric powered by solar / wind, fossil fuels will be gone! We have to due to climate change & pollution.

EVs in 2010, had 20kW batteries, then 30kw by 2015, then 40 kw, now 64kW is standard - same size, same weight, less cost.

There are batteries today with 2-3x that capability being developed for manufacturing.

There are batteries in labs with 10x plus that capability 10 years out

There are ultra-capacitors with 100x that capacity being prepared for manufacture and with 1000x that capacity in labs.

Today ALL DMUs could go battery. Locos will take time, but it will arrive before 2040. Battery-Capacitor hybrids will be the future.
 

najaB

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Well it's pretty terrible as that as well.
There are more hydrogen atoms in a cubic metre of liquid natural gas than in a cubic metre of cryogenic hydrogen.
True. But in a typical swings vs roundabouts tradeoff, it's comparatively less efficient to make carbon-neutral LNG* than it is to make carbon-neutral hydrogen.

*Is it still natural gas if it's manufactured? :)
 

LNW-GW Joint

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What? Stadler is Swiss. Hitachi is Japanese. Furrer+Frey is Swiss. The Class 66s were built in the USA. There's absolutely no restriction on suppliers only coming from the EU. The reason it looks that way is that the vast majority of suppliers to the European rail industry have been based in EU countries. That's changing now.

It depends on how the tariffs change when we leave the EU (and its associated trade deals with 40+ countries).
Cheap steel from India/Indonesia/China will not be popular in Scunthorpe/Port Talbot.
 

najaB

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Methane gas is safe?

FS ITALIANE, SNAM E HITACHI RAIL PER LA MOBILITÀ SOSTENIBILE MOU SU TRENI A METANO
ROMA - 28 MARZO 2019
If providing a quote from an article in another language it would be nice if you run it through a translator first.
Clear powders and fuel savings

FS Italiane, Snam and Hitachi Rail have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) which aims to convert part of the current FS Italiane train fleet from diesel to methane, as part of promoting sustainable mobility in public transport in Italy.

The Memorandum, which was signed by the General Manager of the FS Italiane Foundation Luigi Cantamessa, by the Managing Director of Snam Marco Alverà and by the CEO of Hitachi Rail Italy Maurizio Manfellotto, present Gianfranco Battisti, CEO of FS Italiane, foresees the launch of a pilot project for the conversion of one or two diesel-powered Fondazione FS Italiane railcars into more advanced liquefied natural gas (LNG) or compressed (CNG) models. Downstream of a feasibility study, companies will identify a larger number of trains on which to extend the experiment.
You could also provide a link to the translated version of the article instead: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&tab=TT&sl=it&tl=en&u=http://italy.hitachirail.com/fs-italiane-snam-e-hitachi-rail-per-la-mobilit-sostenibile-mou-su-treni-a-metano_646.html
 

Japan0913

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Methane gas is safe?
FS ITALIANE, SNAM AND HITACHI RAIL PARTNER FOR SUSTAINABLE MOBILITY: MOU ON METHANE-POWERED TRAINS
ROME - 28 MARCH 2019
http://italy.hitachirail.com/en/fs-...bility-mou-on-methane-powered-trains_647.html
No particulate emissions and fuel savings

FS Italiane, Snam and Hitachi Rail signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) which aims to convert part of the current FS Italiane train fleet from diesel to methane, as part of promoting sustainable mobility in public transport in Italy. The Memorandum was signed by the General Manager of the FS Italiane Foundation Luigi Cantamessa, the CEO of Snam Marco Alverà and the CEO of Hitachi Rail Italy Maurizio Manfellotto, in the presence of Gianfranco Battisti, CEO of FS Italiane.

The agreement sets out the launch of a pilot project to convert one or two diesel-powered Fondazione FS Italiane railcars into more advanced liquefied natural gas (LNG) or compressed natural gas (CNG) models. After a feasibility study, the companies will extend the scheme to a larger number of trains. Gianfranco Battisti, CEO of FS Italiane, said: “Environmental, social and economic sustainability is the fundamental value that drives all the Group’s activities and will be one of the pillars of the business plan we are developing. T

his Memorandum confirms the importance, for FS Italiane, of encouraging sustainable mobility starting from tourism. Tourism is growing at a very fast pace in Europe and Italy intercepts a large part of these flows. Many people reach tourist destinations by train, the ecological means par excellence, and over 85% of passengers choose regional transport. For this reason, the Business Plan that we will present envisages a 6 million euro investment for 600 new Rock and Pop regional trains.

Rock and Pop will be operational by the end of spring and are 95% recyclable, with a 30% reduction in energy consumption”. Snam CEO, Marco Alverà, said: “Together with FS Italiane and Hitachi, we start promoting sustainable natural gas mobility in Italy also for trains. Liquefied natural gas and, in the near future, liquefied biomethane has a huge potential to be used widely for rail transport in addition to road and maritime transport, thanks to significant environmental and economic benefits it brings. This initiative cements Italy’s position as the sector leader in Europe”.

Maurizio Manfellotto, CEO of Hitachi Rail Italy and Group COO Service & Maintenance of Hitachi Rail, said: “This Memorandum of Understanding confirms our important partnership with the FS Italiane Group. We are proud to support one of our major customers not only through the supply of trains but also, and in an increasingly important way, by offering them services and maintenance with a view to whole life asset management, developing technologically advanced solutions that generate benefits for the customer and for the community”. Methane converted trains will virtually eliminate particulate matter and reduce carbon dioxide emissions by about 20%. A possible replacement of 100 trains would also lead to savings of approximately 2.5 million euros per year on fuel costs. The Memorandum is part of Snam’s commitment to sustainable mobility. In this regard, the company is investing to increase the number of distributors that supply natural gas to cars and trucks and to promote the development of a biomethane (zero CO2 renewable gas) supply chain in Italy.

This pilot project aligns with Hitachi’s Social Innovation mission that aims to contribute to developing the world we live in by creating innovative solutions. The development of the activities agreed in the Memorandum constitute an important contribution in terms of environmental impact, value generation and sustainability: converting existing trains to run on methane actually extends their life cycle, benefitting the environment and society.

FS Italiane Foundation promotes green tourism through the use of innovative technologies to drive energy efficiency, using renewable fuels and resources to reduce pollution and encourage a sustainable and eco-compatible lifestyle. As part of the Memorandum with Snam and Hitachi, the Foundation will supply the railcars for the scheme and, together with Trenitalia, will make the workshops available for the necessary adjustment interventions.

The trains powered by natural gas will be at the forefront of sustainable tourism and will transport the thousands of tourists who choose to take a slower journey to discover the most evocative places in the Italian provinces, along the approximately 700 km of railway which the FS Italiane Foundation operates. It is also envisaged that the FS Italiane Foundation and the Snam Foundation will partner on tourism projects. The agreement may be subject to subsequent binding agreements that the parties will define in compliance with the applicable regulatory profiles, including those relating to transactions between related parties.
Please remove the #56. Please.
 
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AndrewE

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"Diesel" power units which run on methane might have no particulate emissions, but their exhaust catalysts will still have to reduce the NOx produced in every compression-ignition engine as it uses atmospheric air (80% Nitrogen) in high-pressure cylinders... and I bet those catalysts will depend on extra fuel being dumped into the exhaust to drive the catalysts, reducing the supposed efficiency of the power units.
It would probably still be beaten for efficiency and pollution by an electric train supplied from a power station with district heating or some equivalent use of the secondary heat.
 
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