Future of Newhaven Marine and Harbour Stations?

[JHurcum]

Okay so I'm sure most of you don't need to have Newhaven Marine's interesting position explained to you, but for those un-familiar with it here's a brief overview. Located just 1 minute walk away from the proceeding station (Newhaven Harbour) the station was built exclusively to serve the people alighting straight on and off the boats. However since 2006, although officially open, no trains carrying passengers have entered the station (despite a 20:00 parliamentary train which enters then leaves the station) and the platform was fenced off for 'safety reasons'. I recently visited the station (about a month back) and all the signs were still in place and the only noticeable damage was the lack of cover on the roof supports. However one of my friends has since visited the station (about 2 days ago) and noted that all the signs had gone and the roof supports had been taken away. I hardly think this is Southern re-building the station for re-opening, so are they finally going to close it? If anyone has any information or opinions on the future of this station please share them here. Cheers

 

[swt_passenger]

Not needed for ferry purposes at all, so just get on and close the station properly.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The "parliamentary" service used to be a proper one which carried passengers (guessing mostly station-baggers!) until the roof was condemned as unsafe and the parly became an ECS. This summer the unsafe roof was removed but as there's no need for the station there's not much point in increasing the service. Even Harbour station is less convenient for the Catamaran than Town is, so there's more chance of Harbour losing services than there is of Marine gaining any!

 

[JHurcum]

The "parliamentary" service used to be a proper one which carried passengers (guessing mostly station-baggers!) until the roof was condemned as unsafe and the parly became an ECS. This summer the unsafe roof was removed but as there's no need for the station there's not much point in increasing the service. Even Harbour station is less convenient for the Catamaran than Town is, so there's more chance of Harbour losing services than there is of Marine gaining any!

When you say the Roof was removed does that include all the steel work and supports because they were still there when I went at what must have been around summer time? And I understand that there will be no increase in service but as they have removed the signs now as well are they going to completely stop all the parliamentary trains as well and finally close the station officially?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

When you say the Roof was removed does that include all the steel work and supports because they were still there when I went at what must have been around summer time? And I understand that there will be no increase in service but as they have removed the signs now as well are they going to completely stop all the parliamentary trains as well and finally close the station officially?

Re: the roof, I'm only going on what was reported on here but I thing it was the roof panels themselves that were removed as they were the source of the danger.
I agree that there's little point in continuing with the Parliamentary service, so perhaps the closure process needs to be streamlined in cases where there's unlikely to be any changes that would increase demand... as long as such changes aren't abused in order to cut loss-making but socially-needed services.

 

[IrishDave]

Even if the station were to be closed officially, the track would have to remain in use, at least in the medium-term - in the absence of any pointwork at the London end of Newhaven, the Marine platform essentially acts as a reversing siding to terminate trains at Newhaven. This is facility is used on a scheduled basis in the morning and evening, but can also be used on an unplanned basis when a train for Seaford is running late and is terminated short at Newhaven Harbour.

I think the most likely time for the Marine platform to be closed is when Newhaven Harbour signalbox is next resignalled, as that would afford the chance to put in a crossover at the London end of Newhaven Town for use by reversing trains. Does anyone know when Newhaven (and Lewes, for that matter) are due to transfer to Three Bridges ROC?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Even if the station were to be closed officially, the track would have to remain in use, at least in the medium-term - in the absence of any pointwork at the London end of Newhaven, the Marine platform essentially acts as a reversing siding to terminate trains at Newhaven. This is facility is used on a scheduled basis in the morning and evening, but can also be used on an unplanned basis when a train for Seaford is running late and is terminated short at Newhaven Harbour.

I think the most likely time for the Marine platform to be closed is when Newhaven Harbour signalbox is next resignalled, as that would afford the chance to put in a crossover at the London end of Newhaven Town for use by reversing trains. Does anyone know when Newhaven (and Lewes, for that matter) are due to transfer to Three Bridges ROC?

Would a Crossover be needed? Surely a shunt signal and permissive working onto the start of the single line, to allow a service to reverse there while the Seaford end of the branch is occupied? (might not have used the correct terminology there...).

 

[IrishDave]

Would a Crossover be needed? Surely a shunt signal and permissive working onto the start of the single line, to allow a service to reverse there while the Seaford end of the branch is occupied? (might not have used the correct terminology there...).

Yeah, I guess that could be another possible solution - but, again, that would require Newhaven Harbour to be resignalled.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yeah, I guess that could be another possible solution - but, again, that would require Newhaven Harbour to be resignalled.

I was assuming (perhaps naively) that the whole branch would be resignalled at once. Just thinking that if that's the case, and the signalling will need redoing at some point, it'd make sense to save on pointwork etc.

 

[Tio Terry]

There is a project, currently in the development phase, to resignal Lewes to Newhaven, options are still being evaluated.

 

[IrishDave]

I was assuming (perhaps naively) that the whole branch would be resignalled at once. Just thinking that if that's the case, and the signalling will need redoing at some point, it'd make sense to save on pointwork etc.

Yes, I was assuming the same thing! My point was simply that, until an alternative way of turning back trains at Newhaven is created, the track in the Marine platform will have to stay. Creating any such turnback will involve resignalling the branch. Thus the Marine platform is likely to remain until the branch is resignalled, since the track must remain until then.

 

[JHurcum]

Well from what it sounds like, Southern will have no choice but to keep the track to enable reversing and that their current work on the station is just sorting out the rusting infrastructure. However RTT shows the parliamentary train still which indicates that Southern are not officially closing the Station yet.

So as they have to keep the track (and therefore the platforms to avoid disruption) one idea could be simply to re-brand 'Newhaven Marine' as 'Newhaven Harbour - Platform 3' and simply be used as the platform all terminating trains. While it may be un-necessary to do so - it could free up the Platform 1 and the station and this could be used to increase the frequency of trains on the Seaford branch? I know its not going to happen, but as an idea anyway its certainly an interesting one.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If closure was granted without resignalling, would it be possible to simply truncate the Marine branch to the length required to hold a reversing unit (60/80m) plus the required overlap to clear signalling sections within Harbour station, essentially turning it into a turnback siding?

 

[D1009]

I don't understand why anyone would object to its closure as a passenger station.

 

[Townsend Hook]

So as they have to keep the track (and therefore the platforms to avoid disruption) one idea could be simply to re-brand 'Newhaven Marine' as 'Newhaven Harbour - Platform 3' and simply be used as the platform all terminating trains. While it may be un-necessary to do so - it could free up the Platform 1 and the station and this could be used to increase the frequency of trains on the Seaford branch? I know its not going to happen, but as an idea anyway its certainly an interesting one.

There's not really any need for a specific platform just for terminating trains, it's far easier just to drop passengers on the down platform and pick up from the up, with the stock waiting at Marine for as long as required in between. Not to mention the fact that the number of Newhaven terminators is absolutely minuscule.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even if the station were to be closed officially, the track would have to remain in use, at least in the medium-term - in the absence of any pointwork at the London end of Newhaven, the Marine platform essentially acts as a reversing siding to terminate trains at Newhaven. This is facility is used on a scheduled basis in the morning and evening, but can also be used on an unplanned basis when a train for Seaford is running late and is terminated short at Newhaven Harbour.

I think the most likely time for the Marine platform to be closed is when Newhaven Harbour signalbox is next resignalled, as that would afford the chance to put in a crossover at the London end of Newhaven Town for use by reversing trains. Does anyone know when Newhaven (and Lewes, for that matter) are due to transfer to Three Bridges ROC?

Reversing trains at Marine has the great advantage over reversing on the running line that the stock can be held out of the way for as long as required without blocking the branch. Unless maintenance or renewal costs were massively disproportionate to its use, there is no real reason for the platform road not to be retained as a siding indefinitely.

 

[bluenoxid]

I don't understand why anyone would object to its closure as a passenger station.

Domino effect!
Thin edge of the wedge

 

[Townsend Hook]

Domino effect!
Thin edge of the wedge

I'm sorry, I completely fail to see how closure of a station which is open in name only, and has zero traffic purpose now or for the foreseeable future could create any kind of 'domino effect'. The only reason the station is still 'open' is because it has never been worth the effort to 'close' it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm sorry, I completely fail to see how closure of a station which is open in name only, and has zero traffic purpose now or for the foreseeable future could create any kind of 'domino effect'. The only reason the station is still 'open' is because it has never been worth the effort to 'close' it.

The risk is that if the closure process is streamlined to allow Newhaven Marine to be closed, that might also lead to undesired closures where a short-term view might make closure seem worthwhile. Ravensthorpe could easily have a case made for closure at the present time, but the possibility of new houses being built nearby could boost usage. Reopening once it's been closed would need the station being built to modern standards which would cost upwards of £10m.

 

[D1009]

I don't think anyone is proposing the closure process should be streamlined, but this case seems an extreme example. Presumably if the platform was redesignated as an additional platform at Newhaven Harbour, it could be taken out of official use more easily.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I don't think anyone is proposing the closure process should be streamlined, but this case seems an extreme example. Presumably if the platform was redesignated as an additional platform at Newhaven Harbour, it could be taken out of official use more easily.

That would be one way of doing it I suppose...

Of course, if they do decide to announce its closure, I'd suggest to Southern they do a special trip there and back from London with profits going to the Railway Benevolent Institution and some other such charity/charities

 

[bluenoxid]

I'm sorry, I completely fail to see how closure of a station which is open in name only, and has zero traffic purpose now or for the foreseeable future could create any kind of 'domino effect'. The only reason the station is still 'open' is because it has never been worth the effort to 'close' it.

It sounds obvious but what are the costs for keeping this station open?

 

[JHurcum]

That would be one way of doing it I suppose...

Of course, if they do decide to announce its closure, I'd suggest to Southern they do a special trip there and back from London with profits going to the Railway Benevolent Institution and some other such charity/charities

I would love for them to do this special - should do it anyway - regardless of closure!

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I would love for them to do this special - should do it anyway - regardless of closure!

I suppose we can always ask them to...

As it happens, there appears to be some sort of service running into NVM tonight at 2145 - 383P 1700 Horsham Up T.C. to Horsham Up T.C. (although looking at the top left corner of RTT suggests the real headcode is 3S90

 

[yorksrob]

The risk is that if the closure process is streamlined to allow Newhaven Marine to be closed, that might also lead to undesired closures where a short-term view might make closure seem worthwhile. Ravensthorpe could easily have a case made for closure at the present time, but the possibility of new houses being built nearby could boost usage. Reopening once it's been closed would need the station being built to modern standards which would cost upwards of £10m.

Indeed. That's a pandora's box we do not want to be opening.

 

[JHurcum]

RTT does'nt show it making any stops at either Newhaven Town or Newhaven Harbour, so I have no idea what its doing? It certainly is not the parliamentary train.

Also if anyone is interested I just got around to posting my pictures of the station when I visited back in April - they can be viewed here.

 

[Crossover]

I suppose we can always ask them to...

As it happens, there appears to be some sort of service running into NVM tonight at 2145 - 383P 1700 Horsham Up T.C. to Horsham Up T.C. (although looking at the top left corner of RTT suggests the real headcode is 3S90

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O39188/2015/11/04/advanced

Is it an RHTT?

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O39188/2015/11/04/advanced

Is it an RHTT?

Maybe so

When ordering RTT to display all services using NVM it flags up a cancelled 2F30... Now I wondered about this and checked for as far ahead as RTT allows and it shows every day as being cancelled - it states this is an unadvertised service (I presume in much the same way that Dover Western was towards the end) and wondered if this is the sneaky way of keeping it open...

Makes you wonder how many people would make the trip there if Southern ran 2F30 even for just one day!

 

[yorksrob]

It sounds obvious but what are the costs for keeping this station open?

Given that there will probably be no maintenance of the platform anymore, and whatever maintenance of the track is effectively to maintain a working siding, you could probably say nothing.

 

[tsr]

3S90 will be a Railhead Treatment Train (IIRC a sandite train - could be wrong though).

 

[pitdiver]

Never having been to Newhaven I must say it must have been quite an interesting place when used for ferry services. How far did passengers have to walk to get on the ferries.