Future of Newhaven Marine and Harbour Stations?

[swt_passenger]

Never having been to Newhaven I must say it must have been quite an interesting place when used for ferry services. How far did passengers have to walk to get on the ferries.

It is still used for ferry services, but they now use a foot passenger check in terminal in a completely different location within the port area, for which Newhaven Town is the nearest station.

'Marine' was not far at all from a ferry on the berth just alongside it, but port operations are done differently nowadays, they don't want unescorted foot passengers walking around at random.

Google satellite view shows the relative positions of the stations, berths and ferry offices.

 

[tbtc]

This thread surprises me. If you can’t accept that some stations are hopeless, beyond redemption, a waste of effort then how can you have a reasonable debate about resources?

This is a station to serve ferries that moved away, it’s a Dead Parrot.

You can argue that some badly used stations will come good in the future (Ravensthorpe has been mentioned – maybe Tees Valley Airport will see a renaissance as a stop on HS2 in between Darlington and Middlesbrough – maybe Springfield will see thousands of nearby houses as the Edinburgh property bubble forces people further afield...). You can argue that some lightly used stations provide a social lifeline or are valuable to tourism for the hundred people who use them in a typical year. You can make a case for lightly used stations on the Heart Of Wales being the only public transport in some of the remote villages that the line passes through...

...but if you can’t accept that Newhaven Marine should close (because you are paranoid that closing one single station will lead to a domino effect where we’ll end up with a 21st century Serpell) then I don’t think that there’s any way of having a rational discussion.

Some stations have lost their raison d’être. Some stations should never have been built in the first place. Move on. It’s a railway, not a museum. Demand changes, ferry terminals move. If people aren’t using it then what’s the point?

If you’re going to get precious about saving every basket case station like Newhaven Marine then there seems no point trying to debate though.

(what next – “we can’t scrap Pacers because that might be the thin end of the wedge and before you know it The Establishment will be scrapping most trains”? )

 

[infobleep]

This thread surprises me. If you can’t accept that some stations are hopeless, beyond redemption, a waste of effort then how can you have a reasonable debate about resources?

This is a station to serve ferries that moved away, it’s a Dead Parrot.

You can argue that some badly used stations will come good in the future (Ravensthorpe has been mentioned – maybe Tees Valley Airport will see a renaissance as a stop on HS2 in between Darlington and Middlesbrough – maybe Springfield will see thousands of nearby houses as the Edinburgh property bubble forces people further afield...). You can argue that some lightly used stations provide a social lifeline or are valuable to tourism for the hundred people who use them in a typical year. You can make a case for lightly used stations on the Heart Of Wales being the only public transport in some of the remote villages that the line passes through...

...but if you can’t accept that Newhaven Marine should close (because you are paranoid that closing one single station will lead to a domino effect where we’ll end up with a 21st century Serpell) then I don’t think that there’s any way of having a rational discussion.

Some stations have lost their raison d’être. Some stations should never have been built in the first place. Move on. It’s a railway, not a museum. Demand changes, ferry terminals move. If people aren’t using it then what’s the point?

If you’re going to get precious about saving every basket case station like Newhaven Marine then there seems no point trying to debate though.

(what next – “we can’t scrap Pacers because that might be the thin end of the wedge and before you know it The Establishment will be scrapping most trains”? [emoji38])

If the stations shouldn't have been opened in the first place, how come they didn't close in the 60s/early 70s or is it stations that opened since then.

 

[swt_passenger]

If the stations shouldn't have been opened in the first place, how come they didn't close in the 60s/early 70s or is it stations that opened since then.

You cannot really divide closure policy neatly into pre and post Beeching scenarios.

Newhaven Marine probably had a completely different usage in the 60s/70s, and wasn't even considered an issue. I expect Folkestone Harbour was the same. It's far more to do with changed cross channel opportunities since then.

I cannot remember myself, but did trains (or portions of) still run to Newhaven Marine for London - Paris foot traffic until the tunnel opened?

 

[JHurcum]

Okay so ignoring my idea of Marine becoming Platform 3 of Harbour (which was just a suggestion for interest sake), looking at the entire Newhaven situation...

Just looking at Google maps shows that Newhaven Harbour is only 500 meters from Newhaven Town, which as another contributor has pointed out, is more convenient for ferry connections anyway. With numbers of passengers using the station plummeting to around half of what they were when Marine 'closed' and still on the down - what is the point in this station anyway? With the other station so close up the line then really if it closes it would not affect anyone.
What are your thoughts?

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

What puzzles me is why 2F30 is still listed on RTT, albeit showing up as cancelled every single day... You think if we asked Southern really nicely they might run it?

 

[Radedamer]

I know nothing of Newhaven, so I did as someone suggested above and looked at the Google satellite view. And I'm none the wiser. I see Newhaven Town and Harbour stations, and a track branching off just south of Harbour station, following the quayside, but that looks more like a goods siding – it terminates by a scrapyard where, in the Google view, a ship is loading scrap. Is Marine station the long, white roofed building at the start of this branchline/siding?

 

[tsr]

What puzzles me is why 2F30 is still listed on RTT, albeit showing up as cancelled every single day... You think if we asked Southern really nicely they might run it?

I suggest it is unlikely. However I am sure that consideration could be given if Southern decide to operate any charter/special services again (other than the usual specials for weekend events/Eastbourne student traffic etc.). I guess if nothing else you may as well log the suggestion, but to run 2F30 on the suggestion of a couple of people on a web forum is probably not gonna happen!

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I know nothing of Newhaven, so I did as someone suggested above and looked at the Google satellite view. And I'm none the wiser. I see Newhaven Town and Harbour stations, and a track branching off just south of Harbour station, following the quayside, but that looks more like a goods siding – it terminates by a scrapyard where, in the Google view, a ship is loading scrap. Is Marine station the long, white roofed building at the start of this branchline/siding?

It sure is

 

[berneyarms]

I know nothing of Newhaven, so I did as someone suggested above and looked at the Google satellite view. And I'm none the wiser. I see Newhaven Town and Harbour stations, and a track branching off just south of Harbour station, following the quayside, but that looks more like a goods siding – it terminates by a scrapyard where, in the Google view, a ship is loading scrap. Is Marine station the long, white roofed building at the start of this branchline/siding?

Yes - the platform is immediately to the right of that building.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This thread surprises me. If you can’t accept that some stations are hopeless, beyond redemption, a waste of effort then how can you have a reasonable debate about resources?

This is a station to serve ferries that moved away, it’s a Dead Parrot.

You can argue that some badly used stations will come good in the future (Ravensthorpe has been mentioned – maybe Tees Valley Airport will see a renaissance as a stop on HS2 in between Darlington and Middlesbrough – maybe Springfield will see thousands of nearby houses as the Edinburgh property bubble forces people further afield...). You can argue that some lightly used stations provide a social lifeline or are valuable to tourism for the hundred people who use them in a typical year. You can make a case for lightly used stations on the Heart Of Wales being the only public transport in some of the remote villages that the line passes through...

...but if you can’t accept that Newhaven Marine should close (because you are paranoid that closing one single station will lead to a domino effect where we’ll end up with a 21st century Serpell) then I don’t think that there’s any way of having a rational discussion.

Some stations have lost their raison d’être. Some stations should never have been built in the first place. Move on. It’s a railway, not a museum. Demand changes, ferry terminals move. If people aren’t using it then what’s the point?

If you’re going to get precious about saving every basket case station like Newhaven Marine then there seems no point trying to debate though.

(what next – “we can’t scrap Pacers because that might be the thin end of the wedge and before you know it The Establishment will be scrapping most trains”? )

Couldn't agree more with this post - keeping this station "open" is a complete and utter nonsense, and I cannot understand anyone trying to defend it.

Okay so ignoring my idea of Marine becoming Platform 3 of Harbour (which was just a suggestion for interest sake), looking at the entire Newhaven situation...

Just looking at Google maps shows that Newhaven Harbour is only 500 meters from Newhaven Town, which as another contributor has pointed out, is more convenient for ferry connections anyway. With numbers of passengers using the station plummeting to around half of what they were when Marine 'closed' and still on the down - what is the point in this station anyway? With the other station so close up the line then really if it closes it would not affect anyone.
What are your thoughts?

Presumably Newhaven Harbour serves the industrial units immediately east of the station.

 

[swt_passenger]

I know nothing of Newhaven, so I did as someone suggested above and looked at the Google satellite view. And I'm none the wiser. I see Newhaven Town and Harbour stations, and a track branching off just south of Harbour station, following the quayside, but that looks more like a goods siding – it terminates by a scrapyard where, in the Google view, a ship is loading scrap. Is Marine station the long, white roofed building at the start of this branchline/siding?

The rusty coloured girder structure to the right of that white roofed building, alongside the tracks, is the platform canopy. The station building is between that and the white roofed building.

Google 'images' shows quite a few pics of the current dilapidated state of the platform, with a "Newhaven Marine station" search...

If you check out this view from the north, https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3147/2453310636_a489a6bccc.jpg

...it can be seen that the part of the building nearer the dockside seems to have been allocated to the ferry operator, how the buildings were divided up between 'railway' and 'ferry company' in the post Sealink world is a question for others to answer, but I'd suggest that the 'station' was only a minor part when last in use...

 

[JHurcum]

Even if Newhaven Harbour is used for those industrial units - an increase a 500m maximum walk hardly seems like reason enough to keep the station open. If they close the station and invest what they were spending on upkeep at this station on improving Newhaven Town or simply reducing fares slightly on the Seaford Branch then I feel that would be better than keeping Newhaven Harbour.

As somebody who likes the oddity of Newhaven Marine - it would be fun to see it and Harbour remain open - but I think for the benefit of the Seaford Branch, Harbour should face the axe... maybe they can do it SAS style, like at Marine lol.

 

[Radedamer]

Thanks for such swift informative replies.

I'd perhaps take a different view on this. The whole parliamentary train idea is a farce. Either a station should be open with a proper service or it should be closed. Going parly involves the operator in (at least some) ongoing upkeep – and perhaps more, see the thread about a new footbridge for Pilning – while not providing anyone with a service. Lose-lose. To do this it might be necessary to make it easier to close stations subject to rigorous conditions (eg that even with at least a minimum service level, usage has fallen below a statutory minimum for a set period of time). Obviously, there are situations where a station might fall out of use for various reasons (eg ferry services moving or a large employer closing down) and then later come back into demand (a new ferry route starts, a factory is reopened, the price of coal jumps through the roof and mining becomes viable again – whatever), but those are by their nature unpredictable. Maybe a form of mothballing, or better, platforms, footbridges and buildings retained in ownership but leased out to alternative uses with the option to restart rail services?

 

[Tetchytyke]

...but if you can’t accept that Newhaven Marine should close (because you are paranoid that closing one single station will lead to a domino effect where we’ll end up with a 21st century Serpell) then I don’t think that there’s any way of having a rational discussion.

I don't know if people were saying that. I interpreted it as people not being happy about bringing in a streamlined closure process as this could have much wider implications.

That said, the station clearly isn't open anymore: the only train that goes into it (the 2015 5F30) is now listed as empty coaching stock, and you cannot buy a ticket to the station. I'm really not happy about how this station is being handled. It should be closed, and it should have been closed years ago, but the current limbo is making a mockery of the legislation.

Newhaven Marine needs to be closed but, like with many other places (e.g. Norton Bridge) DafT and the TOCs are simply ignoring legislation they don't like. I don't like the wider implications of letting them get away with it. I'm really not happy about that. But there's nobody who is able to enforce the law.

And it's not as though DafT are incapable of doing it properly when they want to, e.g. the closure of the Ealing Broadway-Wandsworth Town parly coach.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

If it keeps a station open, Arctic, then its good... By the way your signature

"This train has been delayed by a flow of unusually large passengers."

Would be a classic to hear at Newhaven Harbour if they restarted services from Marine!

I tweeted Southern about NVM and their twitter team, at least, seemed puzzled that they still ran trains there! I asked them about restoring services seeing as how the station was closed so long as it took to remove the danger ie: the canopy, and they replied that there are no plans to resume services at this time, but that they may look into it at a future date

 

[jonty14]

There's not really any need for a specific platform just for terminating trains, it's far easier just to drop passengers on the down platform and pick up from the up, with the stock waiting at Marine for as long as required in between. Not to mention the fact that the number of Newhaven terminators is absolutely minuscule.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Reversing trains at Marine has the great advantage over reversing on the running line that the stock can be held out of the way for as long as required without blocking the branch. Unless maintenance or renewal costs were massively disproportionate to its use, there is no real reason for the platform road not to be retained as a siding indefinitely.

This thread surprises me. If you can’t accept that some stations are hopeless, beyond redemption, a waste of effort then how can you have a reasonable debate about resources?

This is a station to serve ferries that moved away, it’s a Dead Parrot.

You can argue that some badly used stations will come good in the future (Ravensthorpe has been mentioned – maybe Tees Valley Airport will see a renaissance as a stop on HS2 in between Darlington and Middlesbrough – maybe Springfield will see thousands of nearby houses as the Edinburgh property bubble forces people further afield...). You can argue that some lightly used stations provide a social lifeline or are valuable to tourism for the hundred people who use them in a typical year. You can make a case for lightly used stations on the Heart Of Wales being the only public transport in some of the remote villages that the line passes through...

...but if you can’t accept that Newhaven Marine should close (because you are paranoid that closing one single station will lead to a domino effect where we’ll end up with a 21st century Serpell) then I don’t think that there’s any way of having a rational discussion.

Some stations have lost their raison d’être. Some stations should never have been built in the first place. Move on. It’s a railway, not a museum. Demand changes, ferry terminals move. If people aren’t using it then what’s the point?

If you’re going to get precious about saving every basket case station like Newhaven Marine then there seems no point trying to debate though.

(what next – “we can’t scrap Pacers because that might be the thin end of the wedge and before you know it The Establishment will be scrapping most trains”? )

Some people like to have stations closed, some like to keep them open. I am of the later. If you find the discussion irrational don't join in. Simple

 

[Murph]

At this point, would there be any real significant benefit in officially closing it. It seems like it's a useful reversing siding, and/or space to dump a troublesome unit until the fitters can get out to it, and/or park an engineering train; and doesn't seem like it should normally cause any problems for services.

 

[30907]

It is still used for ferry services, but they now use a foot passenger check in terminal in a completely different location within the port area, for which Newhaven Town is the nearest station.

'Marine' was not far at all from a ferry on the berth just alongside it, but port operations are done differently nowadays, they don't want unescorted foot passengers walking around at random.

Google satellite view shows the relative positions of the stations, berths and ferry offices.

In the 1990s I used the car ferry a few times, and the old berth provided a direct midships gangway to the passenger terminal - as you would expect, as the whole setup predated RORO ferries.

The equivalent berth at Dieppe Maritime had already been replaced with one by the town beach (not the present one) which didnt exactly encourage classic travellers. The route was marginal economically even then (and still is!).

We used it again this summer, and as swt_passenger says the ferry uses a new berth slightly further inland and there is no segregated foot passenger access. If there were, then Harbour station would be well placed.

 

[QueensCurve]

This thread surprises me. If you can’t accept that some stations are hopeless, beyond redemption, a waste of effort then how can you have a reasonable debate about resources?

This is a station to serve ferries that moved away, it’s a Dead Parrot

While accepting that some stations are "dead parrots", may we be allowed to be nostalgic about those harbour/quay/pier stations we used previously (Folkstone, Weymouth, Stranraer, Balloch) or in my case may have missed (Newhaven)?

 

[Tetchytyke]

At this point, would there be any real significant benefit in officially closing it.

Probably not, but I don't really think that's the point.

We have a station that is legally and officially open yet no service trains call there, you cannot buy a ticket to it and there is no replacement transport service.

Clearly the station isn't open, and not forcing the TOC to either operate the station or close it is just making a mockery of the law.

Still, they managed to do the same thing at Sinfin, Croxley Green, Folkestone Harbour and many more, so what's new.

 

[jonty14]

While accepting that some stations are "dead parrots", may we be allowed to be nostalgic about those harbour/quay/pier stations we used previously (Folkstone, Weymouth, Stranraer, Balloch) or in my case may have missed (Newhaven)?

Well said..

 

[Murph]

Probably not, but I don't really think that's the point.

We have a station that is legally and officially open yet no service trains call there, you cannot buy a ticket to it and there is no replacement transport service.

Clearly the station isn't open, and not forcing the TOC to either operate the station or close it is just making a mockery of the law.

There's no statute law requiring the TOC to do anything, as far as I'm aware, it's all contract law. Contract law is anything but the black and white that you're suggesting. In contract law, either side can freely ignore failings by the other side if they want to. Contract law just provides for remedies if there's a failing and the other side actively wants to do something about it. I.e. if both the TOC and DfT don't care, it's perfectly fine.

 

[berneyarms]

While accepting that some stations are "dead parrots", may we be allowed to be nostalgic about those harbour/quay/pier stations we used previously (Folkstone, Weymouth, Stranraer, Balloch) or in my case may have missed (Newhaven)?

That's a completely different point though!

And we can all be nostalgic - it's healthy and fascinating too.

But this is a complete nonsense - the station serves no useful purpose whatsoever - the sidings could be retained easily, but I see no point in keeping that station open - it's a joke.

 

[yorksrob]

But this is a complete nonsense - the station serves no useful purpose whatsoever - the sidings could be retained easily, but I see no point in keeping that station open - it's a joke.

In all reality, since you can't buy a ticket to there, it's not open.

 

[JHurcum]

Okay to quickly paraphrase what I feel the main points discussed so far:
1. Everyone agrees that Newhaven Marine station serves no purpose
2. It would make logical sense to close the station
3. But some people want to see it open for the nostalgia and others think it should just shut

Okay so now that is established - I feel it is fair to say that in response to Southern's tweet that they may one day resume services to the station - I feel it is far more likely they will close Harbour as well, than ever return an actual train to Marine. This being said - if a new ferry service where to open at the birth alongside Marine - would there still be any point in re-opening it? Surely a better set up would be to replace the three stations all within 800m of each other with just one?

 

[Murph]

In all reality, since you can't buy a ticket to there, it's not open.

Exactly. It's de facto closed already, there's another station about 2 minutes walk from it which has normal service, and it's basically not causing any great harm or expense that would be improved by officially declaring it closed. As long as both the DfT and the TOC are content with the status quo, there is no legal issue. In all probability, it would end up costing more to declare it officially closed, than to just quietly ignore it.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Okay to quickly paraphrase what I feel the main points discussed so far:
1. Everyone agrees that Newhaven Marine station serves no purpose
2. It would make logical sense to close the station
3. But some people want to see it open for the nostalgia and others think it should just shut

Okay so now that is established - I feel it is fair to say that in response to Southern's tweet that they may one day resume services to the station - I feel it is far more likely they will close Harbour as well, than ever return an actual train to Marine. This being said - if a new ferry service where to open at the birth alongside Marine - would there still be any point in re-opening it? Surely a better set up would be to replace the three stations all within 800m of each other with just one?

Close Town and Harbour, and reinstate Marine as a terminal station once again - jobs a good one... Heck, I'll do the blooming painting myself

 

[Tetchytyke]

There's no statute law requiring the TOC to do anything, as far as I'm aware, it's all contract law.

The process for withdrawal of passenger train services from a station or line is set out in legislation, most recently the 2005 Railways Act. This is to stop governments or TOCs closing things when they feel like it.

Newhaven Marine is closed. You can't travel there and you can't buy a ticket there. However the closure process has not been followed.

 

[Murph]

The process for withdrawal of passenger train services from a station or line is set out in legislation, most recently the 2005 Railways Act. This is to stop governments or TOCs closing things when they feel like it.

Newhaven Marine is closed. You can't travel there and you can't buy a ticket there. However the closure process has not been followed.

It's not permanently closed, which is what is covered by the Act. It is a temporary closure due to safety concerns about the platform, which pushes it back to just being a matter of contract terms, and no legal issues as long as both sides are content with the status quo. That it is de facto closed does not matter.

 

[D1009]

I suppose you could argue that if terrorists caused serious damage to the Channel Tunnel there would be an immediate need for a hugely enhanced ferry service which could potentially involve Newhaven, but it's a bit far fetched.