Future of North Wales to Manchester services east of Chester

[northwichcat]

The Northern ITT gives some clues about the long term future of the ATW North Wales to Manchester services.

From December 2017 Northern will be required to run a Chester-Victoria-Bradford-Leeds service. It seems that will eliminate the requirement for ATW to run the Chester-Piccadilly peak time extras. The Chester-Victoria-Bradford-Leeds will not call at Helsby and Frodsham except at peak times, meaning the North Wales-Manchester services are likely to remain all-stops between Chester and Newton-le-Willows.

Also Northern bidders have been asked to reserve a path for ATW to do one of the following:
1. Extend the service to Manchester Airport.
2. Divert the service to Manchester Victoria, where it will terminate.

Which option is dependant on how many Airport services Northern bidders propose and get approval to operate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't help but think that this mass diversion of services to Victoria is just going to be a right faff for passengers.

Neil

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Northern ITT gives some clues about the long term future of the ATW North Wales to Manchester services.

From December 2017 Northern will be required to run a Chester-Victoria-Bradford-Leeds service. It seems that will eliminate the requirement for ATW to run the Chester-Piccadilly peak time extras. The Chester-Victoria-Bradford-Leeds will not call at Helsby and Frodsham except at peak times, meaning the North Wales-Manchester services are likely to remain all-stops between Chester and Newton-le-Willows.

Also Northern bidders have been asked to reserve a path for ATW to do one of the following:
1. Extend the service to Manchester Airport.
2. Divert the service to Manchester Victoria, where it will terminate.


Which option is dependant on how many Airport services Northern bidders propose and get approval to operate.

ATW want the airport for ORCATS but I suppose it's not up to them and they'll have to play ball with the Northern/TPE winners. Good news is that it will free up a unit or two for elsewhere on ATW's long distance services.

 

[NORMAN471]

I can't help but think that this mass diversion of services to Victoria is just going to be a right faff for passengers.

Neil

It all depends of course on where people are travelling to. If only to Manchester then Victoria is well placed enough for the city as Piccadilly and Oxford Road are.

Any travel further along from Manchester has many options and Piccadilly has ones currently that Victoria does not but some of the passengers alighting at Piccadilly may even want to catch a train onward that only departs from Victoria and somehow have to make their way over there.

Luckily, this is achievable by alighting at Newton-le-Willows and surely could be the same if ATW were to go to Victoria allowing passengers to change there onto services to Piccadilly and beyond.

Unfortunately experience has shown we can't all get completely direct services on one train to where we want to go and things are changing all the time and may yet be for the better. Best just wait and see.

 

[northwichcat]

Good news is that it will free up a unit or two for elsewhere on ATW's long distance services.

Not necessarily - if ATW require 2 less DMUs to run their franchised services they may use them to replace a loco-hauled set, unless the Welsh Assembly secure some extra funding to lengthen services.

 

[Class 170101]

ATW want the airport for ORCATS but I suppose it's not up to them and they'll have to play ball with the Northern/TPE winners. Good news is that it will free up a unit or two for elsewhere on ATW's long distance services.

ATW will have only just got to the Airport for most of the day from May 2015 I can't see them giving this up quickly.

What does their Track Access Agreement say? If its firm rights they can only be changed after their expiry.

 

[Philip]

It all depends of course on where people are travelling to. If only to Manchester then Victoria is well placed enough for the city as Piccadilly and Oxford Road are.

Any travel further along from Manchester has many options and Piccadilly has ones currently that Victoria does not but some of the passengers alighting at Piccadilly may even want to catch a train onward that only departs from Victoria and somehow have to make their way over there.

Luckily, this is achievable by alighting at Newton-le-Willows and surely could be the same if ATW were to go to Victoria allowing passengers to change there onto services to Piccadilly and beyond.

Unfortunately experience has shown we can't all get completely direct services on one train to where we want to go and things are changing all the time and may yet be for the better. Best just wait and see.

If the ATW service gets diverted into Victoria then I'm not sure Newton-le-Willlows will have any direct services to Piccadilly. I don't see running into Piccadilly as a priority - any passengers travelling south from Chester or North Wales are better off changing at Crewe, arguably the same for passengers to the Airport too.

 

[edwin_m]

There will be Airport services from Victoria assuming the Ordsall Chord actually happens. But I agree keeping the ATW service going to the Airport would be a good idea, as it minimises the need for Airport passengers to change trains.

I would have thought it would be more sensible to have the Northern service making the Helsby and Frodsham stops, as then only the few passengers travelling between Chester and beyond Manchester would have extended journey times and everyone else could use the "fast" ATW service. It would also provide these two English stations with service mainly or fully by an English operator. But perhaps the bureacracy to transfer these stop from ATW to Northern is just too difficult.

 

[Philip]

We could have an Arriva Trains Wales stopping service to Manchester and an Arriva Trains Northern fast train to Manchester, possibly using the same trains wearing the same liveries!

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I can't help but think that this mass diversion of services to Victoria is just going to be a right faff for passengers.

Neil

On a completely selfish note, Victoria is far preferably for me, but the lack of services from Helsby and Frodsham somewhat spoils things.

 

[SprinterMan]

ATW will have only just got to the Airport for most of the day from May 2015 I can't see them giving this up quickly.

What does their Track Access Agreement say? If its firm rights they can only be changed after their expiry.

This has been cancelled now

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...7/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=AW

 

[MidnightFlyer]

This has been cancelled now

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...7/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=AW

Were they ever uploaded in the first place or could it just be that they haven't been submitted into the system yet?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Any travel further along from Manchester has many options and Piccadilly has ones currently that Victoria does not but some of the passengers alighting at Piccadilly may even want to catch a train onward that only departs from Victoria and somehow have to make their way over there.

As in the case of people from both PrestburyMacclesfield who wish to travel to Clitheroe.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There will be Airport services from Victoria assuming the Ordsall Chord actually happens. But I agree keeping the ATW service going to the Airport would be a good idea, as it minimises the need for Airport passengers to change trains.

In the last two years on this website, some forum members have been vociferous in insistence that Manchester Airport-bound passengers on services from a number of locations that terminate at Manchester Airport station should indeed be forced to disembark at Manchester Piccadilly and avail themselves of the use of a shuttle train service from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport.

 

[merlodlliw]

This has been cancelled now

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...7/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=AW

Some kind person with the consultative disc from ATW will have a better idea of ATWs plans.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

Some kind person with the consultative disc from ATW will have a better idea of ATWs plans.

Bob

The covering letter with the disc mention airport services being "unfortunately turned down", May 15 for Chester eastwards same as now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not necessarily - if ATW require 2 less DMUs to run their franchised services they may use them to replace a loco-hauled set, unless the Welsh Assembly secure some extra funding to lengthen services.

The N Wales/ Manchester LHCS set is funded by ATW as part of the compensation deal DB had to make when they took over Arriva. Therefore it's funded on top of the franchised DMU's up until the end of the franchise agreement in Dec 18. If Northern get their Calder Valley services to Chester in Dec17 then there will be an opportunity to free some ATW DMU's up.

 

[northwichcat]

The N Wales/ Manchester LHCS set is funded by ATW as part of the compensation deal DB had to make when they took over Arriva. Therefore it's funded on top of the franchised DMU's up until the end of the franchise agreement in Dec 18. If Northern get their Calder Valley services to Chester in Dec17 then there will be an opportunity to free some ATW DMU's up.

OK that mean's the loco-hauled set is safe then.

However, if the franchise agreement is revised to include less services it could be revised to include less units - that has happened in the past e.g. when the Oldham Loop was closed as a heavy rail line Northern were initially made to put 5 x 142s in to storage.

 

[Gareth Marston]

OK that mean's the loco-hauled set is safe then.

However, if the franchise agreement is revised to include less services it could be revised to include less units - that has happened in the past e.g. when the Oldham Loop was closed as a heavy rail line Northern were initially made to put 5 x 142s in to storage.

Why would you go to the trouble of altering the franchise agreement with 12 months left on it? In addition ATW use non standard stock on the route. The Class 175's are only run by ATW and the 158's that appear are fitted with etcs equipment and are part of a diagram cycle that sends them back to Machynlleth. No else bar ATW have traction knowledge on 175's or etcs fitted 158's.

 

[northwichcat]

Why would you go to the trouble of altering the franchise agreement with 12 months left on it?

Franchise agreements get revised all the time. Remember when Wales & Borders took over services from First North Western very close to the end of the franchise? That was a much more significant change.

If the franchise agreement isn't revised then ATW will have to continue running the peak time extras between Chester and Manchester and won't be able to look at redeploying rolling stock, not even by strengthening an existing ATW service. If it is revised 2 units will drop out of the franchise unless they can prove the funding is there to strengthen other services. I'm not saying that won't happen but I am saying it won't automatically happen.

 

[merlodlliw]

Franchise agreements get revised all the time. Remember when Wales & Borders took over services from First North Western very close to the end of the franchise? That was a much more significant change.

If the franchise agreement isn't revised then ATW will have to continue running the peak time extras between Chester and Manchester and won't be able to look at redeploying rolling stock, not even by strengthening an existing ATW service. If it is revised 2 units will drop out of the franchise unless they can prove the funding is there to strengthen other services. I'm not saying that won't happen but I am saying it won't automatically happen.

The Wales and Borders franchise(Dogs Dinner/No Growth) also took over another Chester station toc,Central who had put brand new trains on the Dee/Seven line, replaced by 150s, a shock to the system.
If any units become free, they could be used North West Wales/North East Wales into Liverpool,we also have stations to Runcorn under the ATW/WG banner,would they remain managed by ATW or whoever takes over from ATW in 2018. Welsh Government are now it seems keen to retain or improve North Wales trains into the North West & West Midlands.
Has Welsh Government will be in charge of the new W&B toc from 2018,North Wales traffic into the North West will be of more importance than the political ideology of more North Wales to Cardiff services in my opinion.

 

[leejayd]

I can't help but think that this mass diversion of services to Victoria is just going to be a right faff for passengers.

Neil

What a pain that is. Do we know for sure if the NR chester-manchester service will replace the Arriva service?

I hope the service is timed to give us chance to cross town to the office before 9.

 

[trawscymru27]

Do we know for sure if the NR chester-manchester service will replace the Arriva service?

It will run in addition to the existing Arriva service, but will only call at Frodsham and Helsby in peak times. This will give a broadly half-hourly Chester - Warrington - Manchester service.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

It will run in addition to the existing Arriva service, but will only call at Frodsham and Helsby in peak times. This will give a broadly half-hourly Chester - Warrington - Manchester service.

What is the thinking about not stopping at Helsby and Frodsham? Is it timings, passengers no's ?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Franchise agreements get revised all the time. Remember when Wales & Borders took over services from First North Western very close to the end of the franchise? That was a much more significant change.

If the franchise agreement isn't revised then ATW will have to continue running the peak time extras between Chester and Manchester and won't be able to look at redeploying rolling stock, not even by strengthening an existing ATW service. If it is revised 2 units will drop out of the franchise unless they can prove the funding is there to strengthen other services. I'm not saying that won't happen but I am saying it won't automatically happen.

The peak extras to Chester will go yes no problems or issues with that. But no one outside of ATW will want the hassle of two non standard DMU's. The convoluted arrangements including staff training and maintainence arrangements for 175's make them a non starter and the 158's have ertms fitted and it would be a waste of money to have them 100% running away from etcs areas. Whoever wins Northern have a lot of rolling stock issues on their plate without getting a headache from two non standard dmu's.

 

[Philip]

The peak extras to Chester will go yes no problems or issues with that. But no one outside of ATW will want the hassle of two non standard DMU's. The convoluted arrangements including staff training and maintainence arrangements for 175's make them a non starter and the 158's have ertms fitted and it would be a waste of money to have them 100% running away from etcs areas. Whoever wins Northern have a lot of rolling stock issues on their plate without getting a headache from two non standard dmu's.

I remember reading a few years ago about the proposed switching of Chester to Manchester via Warrington to Northern, I think ATW offered a few 175s to Northern to run the service but the reason Northern pulled out was due to the 175 leasing costs.

 

[edwin_m]

I expect if ATW ends up with two spare 158s that the Welsh Government will find a use for them. If they don't, then many more 158s will be fitted with ETCS in the next few years so they won't be non-standard for long.

 

[merlodlliw]

Peak extras is mentioned, I was under the impression only the 1719 out of Piccaddilly to Chester was the sole ATW extra Monday/Friday.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What is the thinking about not stopping at Helsby and Frodsham? Is it timings, passengers no's ?

The Loco Hauled service 0950 to Holyhead already avoids stops at both stations,ATW say its timings?, however Colwyn Bay is also avoided by this train.

 

[daniel3982]

Good to see Chester linked into cross-Pennine links, shame that the similarly sized Lincoln over in the East isn't afforded the same privilege. Would make a good end point for an additional trans-Pennine service via Sheffield.

 

[Chester025]

The Loco Hauled service 0950 to Holyhead already avoids stops at both stations,ATW say its timings?, however Colwyn Bay is also avoided by this train.

1D34 does stop at Frodsham & Helsby -

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P40120/2015/05/27/advanced

 

[edwin_m]

Good to see Chester linked into cross-Pennine links, shame that the similarly sized Lincoln over in the East isn't afforded the same privilege. Would make a good end point for an additional trans-Pennine service via Sheffield.

Lincoln should benefit a little from faster journey times to Sheffield once the new Worksop short workings take out some of the intermediate calls. DfT seems to have put Hope Valley service reform into the too difficult pile for the time being.

 

[merlodlliw]

1D34 does stop at Frodsham & Helsby -

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P40120/2015/05/27/advanced

Apologies, it was in the consultative document last year both stops to be axed,however this is not the situation now, you are correct.