Future of On-Train Catering- Scotrail and Caledonian Sleeper

[MrEd]

Seeing the thread about the potential alcohol ban on Scotrail services made me wonder about this. At present, no catering services (other than a basic breakfast in a bag on the sleeper) are offered on these trains (understandably) due to the Coronavirus, but when (if ever) are we likely to see them reinstated? Other TOCs have started to reinstate catering services of sorts. Is it possible that some routes will never get their catering back, and that on others it will be curtailed, even after the virus restrictions are finally lifted? I suppose the worry is that many of the services in question no longer have the demand that they used to with the lack of commuting/business travel, and with many former passengers losing confidence in public transport. This market may be very hard to win back, even after the situation with the virus eases.

I don’t know whether this is anything more than speculative Inverness mess room gossip, but there‘s talk that some rural routes (Inverness-Kyle possibly, even the northern parts of the West Highland and Far North) may lose their catering completely, and that the offering on the sleeper in the lounge car when it finally does reopen (which could be a year away or more) will be simplified somewhat, to make the service easier to deliver. Perhaps this amounts to nothing more than a shorter menu/reduced breakfast choices, but has anyone else heard anything similar? Perhaps no firm decision has been made yet, as these catering services are probably many months away from being reinstated.

I suppose it’s the case that no TOC wants to make redundancies in this climate, but that catering services on many routes run at a thumping loss (and will run at an even greater loss if demand does not recover to pre-virus levels).

 

[theironroad]

Catering on the sleeper is a totally different ballgame to a trolley on SR day routes.

Serco's hotel on wheels and the whole lounge car and food experience is important to many travellers especially one off tourists so will return when safe. Tbh, I'm surprised they haven't found a acceptable process to serve food and demarcate the lounge car with screens into small partitions with similar mask rules for when not seated and eating.

I think a lot of of catering trollies around the country may be under threat as I'm not sure how profitable some were in pre covid days with a lot more passengers travelling.

 

[williamn]

Given that food is not a vector for Coronavirus its hard to see why the food service needs to be reduced so much.

 

[dk1]

I think a lot of of catering trollies around the country may be under threat as I'm not sure how profitable some were in pre covid days with a lot more passengers travelling.

I didn't think any onboard catering was profitable or ever supposed to be.

 

[tomwills98]

I didn't think any onboard catering was profitable or ever supposed to be.

The tea trolley on the Heart of Wales makes a fair bit, but I can't see any of them being planned to make a profit

 

[dk1]

The tea trolley on the Heart of Wales makes a fair bit, but I can't see any of them being planned to make a profit

Are those crewed by volunteers though?

 

[185143]

Are those crewed by volunteers though?

Nope, TfW (or their contractor if applicable). The only volunteer ran trolley I'm aware of is on the S&C.

 

[dk1]

Nope, TfW (or their contractor if applicable). The only volunteer ran trolley I'm aware of is on the S&C.

Ah fair enough. I just seem to recall volunteers once manning a trolley when heading to Builth Road several years back & sampling a Welsh cake. They are all pretty large loss leaders but very welcome all the same.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Given that food is not a vector for Coronavirus its hard to see why the food service needs to be reduced so much.

The food isn't , but it does encourage people to move about the train. The trolley operator will be exposed to all the passengers and could be a vector.

 

[cakefiend]

Given that food is not a vector for Coronavirus its hard to see why the food service needs to be reduced so much.

It's more the placing staff in close contact with lots of people, and the fact that providing food and drink encourages people to take masks off.

 

[theironroad]

I didn't think any onboard catering was profitable or ever supposed to be.

Tbf, I dont know the details of onboard catering, but unless there is some sort of subsidy from a TOC, I doubt the likes of rail gourmet, elior etc and their parent companies would be in he game at all.

I can understand in house , especially on board restaurant catering, might be used to draw people in at a loss but not for commercial operators.

 

[Taunton]

Whether the catering is at a "loss" or not depends on really how you do the accounting. BR used to charge the running costs of the restaurant car vehicle to the catering side, in their usual simplistic costing method they added up all the systemwide vehicle costs for purchase and repairs, divided this by the mileage each vehicle did, and that was the "cost" charged to catering. No wonder it made a loss. Major catering companies (because TOCs like to deal with just one company) add a lot of overhead as well. The odd occasion where a local concessionaire has been allowed to provide the service, generally by hopping back and forth on multiple services during the day mid-journey, has however always seemed to work quite well without subsidy. In fact the opposite; desperation by railway commercial staff to charge the concessionaire "who must be making a packet" a fee for doing so, and in fact letting the contract only to the one that offers the highest fee, is what has been the downfall of these too.

 

[gaillark]

My personal opinions regarding provision on ScotRail and Caledonian Sleeper ...


ScotRail (and all other TOC's) are likely to make a huge loss in financial terms in its provision but the questions that need to be asked is the social benefit, fare revenue generated and the customer service it provides. The Kyle route and far north as example is what I would term as "social provision" similar to subsiding loss making train services but deemed necessary for the public good. It's not uncommon to experience service disruption and having a catering facility is a welcome sight in such cases. Regarding fare revenue generated particularly business travellers and in First Class the provision of refreshments can make the difference between taking the train or driving. Many times I have seen passengers asking information about connections and other journey information from the catering staff so it does provide for customer service benefit including collecting rubbish off tables and seats.
Yes, I do think that on-board catering is still an important benefit to both the passenger and train operator if you strip out operational costs of providing the service.
The following comment may provoke the wrath of some staff but on some rural lines and a certain amount of time between stops new smart way of working may need to be provided in the future such as creating a new combined role whereby the guard also doubles up customer service host which includes selling refreshments in return for enhanced job grade. I stress that this would only be on rural routes. I'm not personally attacking any guard or catering staff but just examining maximising customer benefits at a reasonable cost provision.

Caledonian Sleeper previously advertised that they would have a proper chef on board to cook meals. Hasn't materialised yet and personally don't think it will. Very poor offering to customers. First ScotRail provided better service compared to the present operator.

 

[najaB]

Tbf, I dont know the details of onboard catering, but unless there is some sort of subsidy from a TOC, I doubt the likes of rail gourmet, elior etc and their parent companies would be in he game at all.

Do Rail Gourmet, etc. operate the retail side of things though or are they just suppliers with the TOC taking the financial risk.

 

[theironroad]

Do Rail Gourmet, etc. operate the retail side of things though or are they just suppliers with the TOC taking the financial risk.

That's what I'm not sure on.

 

[najaB]

That's what I'm not sure on.

From what I've seen the catering staff normally work for the TOC, so I assume the suppliers are just specialist suppliers with stock rooms at railway stations, the same as suppliers to any other retail operator.

 

[dk1]

From what I've seen the catering staff normally work for the TOC, so I assume the suppliers are just specialist suppliers with stock rooms at railway stations, the same as suppliers to any other retail operator.

So much better for the staff too. The conditions of service & rates of pay offered to many of the cowboy catering companies that offered a trolley on regional routes in the latter days of BR & the early privatised era where shocking.

 

[theironroad]

From what I've seen the catering staff normally work for the TOC, so I assume the suppliers are just specialist suppliers with stock rooms at railway stations, the same as suppliers to any other retail operator.

It's the contractual risk I'm not sure on, whether the toc take it or the company .

On SWR the trolleys are Elior staff (who took over contract from rail gourmet) .

They are definitely not in house and are not paid that much more than minimum wage. They have been on furlough since March at 80% with both Elior and SWR refusing to top up to 100%.

I believe negotiations have been ongoing about when and how the will return to trains so there's some hope.

 

[dk1]

It's the contractual risk I'm not sure on, whether the toc take it or the company .

On SWR the trolleys are Elior staff (who took over contract from rail gourmet) .

They are definitely not in house and are not paid that much more than minimum wage. They have been on furlough since March at 80% with both Elior and SWR refusing to top up to 100%..

Isnt that terrible? If they where in house chances are they would be found alternative duties such as sanitising passenger areas. Nobody whatsoever has been furloughed at my TOC.

 

[theironroad]

Isnt that terrible? If they where in house chances are they would be found alternative duties such as sanitising passenger areas. Nobody whatsoever has been furloughed at my TOC.

Yes, even before covid it would have been better if in house. Swr brought in agency staff to do sanitising. Technically,under furlough the catering staff could have applied to the agency which is all a bit farcical.

I don't think any swr toc employees have been furloughed either.

 

[6Z09]

My personal opinions regarding provision on ScotRail and Caledonian Sleeper ...


ScotRail (and all other TOC's) are likely to make a huge loss in financial terms in its provision but the questions that need to be asked is the social benefit, fare revenue generated and the customer service it provides. The Kyle route and far north as example is what I would term as "social provision" similar to subsiding loss making train services but deemed necessary for the public good. It's not uncommon to experience service disruption and having a catering facility is a welcome sight in such cases. Regarding fare revenue generated particularly business travellers and in First Class the provision of refreshments can make the difference between taking the train or driving. Many times I have seen passengers asking information about connections and other journey information from the catering staff so it does provide for customer service benefit including collecting rubbish off tables and seats.
Yes, I do think that on-board catering is still an important benefit to both the passenger and train operator if you strip out operational costs of providing the service.
The following comment may provoke the wrath of some staff but on some rural lines and a certain amount of time between stops new smart way of working may need to be provided in the future such as creating a new combined role whereby the guard also doubles up customer service host which includes selling refreshments in return for enhanced job grade. I stress that this would only be on rural routes. I'm not personally attacking any guard or catering staff but just examining maximising customer benefits at a reasonable cost provision.

Caledonian Sleeper previously advertised that they would have a proper chef on board to cook meals. Hasn't materialised yet and personally don't think it will. Very poor offering to customers. First ScotRail provided better service compared to the present operator.

A proper chef on the Caledonian Sleeper?
Never heard that one , and can't ever see it happening, new stock may have an improved oven, but no way a kitchen requiring a chef.

 

[MrEd]

A proper chef on the Caledonian Sleeper?
Never heard that one , and can't ever see it happening, new stock may have an improved oven, but no way a kitchen requiring a chef.

I agree, I’m not sure that will ever happen now, especially in the current economic climate. My bet is that if anything, catering operations on the sleeper will be contracting, not expanding.

 

[andythebrave]

The following comment may provoke the wrath of some staff but on some rural lines and a certain amount of time between stops new smart way of working may need to be provided in the future such as creating a new combined role whereby the guard also doubles up customer service host which includes selling refreshments in return for enhanced job grade. I stress that this would only be on rural routes. I'm not personally attacking any guard or catering staff but just examining maximising customer benefits at a reasonable cost provision.

This was pretty much my experience some years ago in 1st between Vienna and Munich; the guard asked what I wanted and brought it to me from the buffet. Seemed to work very well.

 

[MrEd]

This was pretty much my experience some years ago in 1st between Vienna and Munich; the guard asked what I wanted and brought it to me from the buffet. Seemed to work very well.

That seems a good solution on paper for our rural routes, so as to avoid the need for a separate catering attendant. However, I don’t think any TOC (or rail regulator) would embrace it in our current safety-conscious culture, as it could potentially distract a guard from vital safety-critical duties (and also revenue). I’m also not convinced that on (e.g.) a summer Kyle line service, with tickets to sell from every station except Inverness and (sometimes) Dingwall, and with frequent stops (including request stops), the guard could be relied on to provide a reliable catering service. In fact, I can’t think of a rural route in the UK where a guard would have time to do catering alongside revenue and safety critical duties. Some main line routes with large gaps between stops perhaps, but then catering on these routes would be less of a basket case and would probably justify a dedicated attendant anyway.

 

[najaB]

In fact, I can’t think of a rural route in the UK where a guard would have time to do catering alongside revenue and safety critical duties.

In the height of summer, maybe not, but on the Scottish rural routes for most of the year they probably could manage it.

 

[PupCuff]

That seems a good solution on paper for our rural routes, so as to avoid the need for a separate catering attendant. However, I don’t think any TOC (or rail regulator) would embrace it in our current safety-conscious culture, as it could potentially distract a guard from vital safety-critical duties (and also revenue).

People raise this from time to time and I can't say I agree - traditionally we had Guards and ticket inspectors both doing their relevant roles, and now we see that a Guard can also balance commercial duties with their safety ones, giving us conductors, there's nothing specific about catering duties which would cause an extra distraction. Some TOCs have their Train Managers supporting the First Class service, for instance. Of course, it perhaps isn't desirable to do so (more staff on the train the better the customer experience will be at the end of the day, and there's likely to be pushback from trade unions on taking on additional duties) but that doesn't mean it should be dismissed on safety grounds. The point about taking time away from being able to retail tickets is perhaps more a pressing concern on many lines.

 

[Fyldeboy]

Do Rail Gourmet, etc. operate the retail side of things though or are they just suppliers with the TOC taking the financial risk.

When I worked for RG many years ago, we were the supplier of stock to FGW trains and the 'storer' of catering trolleys, getting them to and from appropriate trains. However, on what was then 'Wales and West', RG provided the on-train service as well, so it seems the specifics of who does what can vary from TOC to TOC. As GWR now operaqte many of the Wales and West routes, maybe even area to area.

 

[alangla]

I’m also not convinced that on (e.g.) a summer Kyle line service, with tickets to sell from every station except Inverness and (sometimes) Dingwall, and with frequent stops (including request stops), the guard could be relied on to provide a reliable catering service.

There’s roughly 10-20 minutes between stops east of Duncraig and west of Dingwall. If the majority of the gripping was done at the outer ends then a (largely static) trolley should be manageable in the bit in between. You can guarantee the RMT would dust off their well-used “KitKat sellers” slogan when the inevitable strike ballot was declared though.

Edit - just looked at the Far North line and it’s similar once you’re beyond Dingwall, albeit with clumps of stations closer together, e.g. Alness/Invergordon, Tain/Fearn, Ardgay/Culrain/Invershin etc

 

[TUC]

The food isn't , but it does encourage people to move about the train. The trolley operator will be exposed to all the passengers and could be a vector.

Surely no more than staff offering at-table service in restaurants and pubs-exactly the approach the government wants?

 

[najaB]

Surely no more than staff offering at-table service in restaurants and pubs-exactly the approach the government wants?

True. Though, it's worth noting that the raison d'être of a restaurant is serving food and drink, that's why people go there and patrons will have made the decision that going there was worth the slight risk of infection. Not so with a train.