Future of the Blackpool South line

[furnessvale]

But the car park will provide for far fewer people than the station formerly handled, so in a sense it matches the much lower demand.

True. The massive car parks at Blackpool Central occupy the site of Central station and its associated sidings.

However, in its heyday, special trains from Blackpool filled every spare siding as far back as Lostock Hall while awaiting their return workings!

 

[BelleIsle]

The lack of a clout-wielding organisation with strategic overview of regional transport in the area means it's extremely difficult to force any decision other than carrying on with the status quo.

And with Lancashire County Council working on partisan lines and Fylde BC wanting to pull out of devolution it is not going to get any better.

 

[deltic08]

Heavy rail isn't the be-all and end-all of transport planning and investment and in many cases, light rail conversion benefits far more people than it disadvantages.

Yes, it wasn't as extreme as having everyone turn up on one day, but it did mean that disproportionate amounts of railway infrastructure were needed to handle all of the traffic. With the end of those sorts of holidays there can never be a justification for the capacity to be re-instated.

I am sorry, but tram does not compare to a heavy rail vehicle in the ride experience. At one time, the Harrogate Loop was to be used in the tram-train experiment until it was realised that through trains from Kings Cross would be unable to use the line between Leeds and Horsforth as operating was to be line of sight without conventional signals, platform heights would be different and extended towards the nearest rail. Thank goodness Leeds did not have a tram system at that time to connect to.

Perhaps not the volumes of the 1950s but passenger footfall has doubled in the last 12 years and capacity has to increase to meet that growth and that means investment to upgrade lines like that to Blackpool South for those who choose to live on the Fylde and work in Preston, Liverpool and Manchester. Investment happens elsewhere particularly around London so why should the North miss out all the time.

Just imagine a nice new three car electric unit operating from Lytham to Manchester in under an hour compared with a two car, 75 mph Pacer to Colne and having to change at Preston. How attractive that would be to leave the car at home for your daily commute.

Are the passenger figure known for the amount of commuters each day eastwards from North and South lines for comparison?

 

[edwin_m]

I am sorry, but tram does not compare to a heavy rail vehicle in the ride experience. At one time, the Harrogate Loop was to be used in the tram-train experiment until it was realised that through trains from Kings Cross would be unable to use the line between Leeds and Horsforth as operating was to be line of sight without conventional signals, platform heights would be different and extended towards the nearest rail. Thank goodness Leeds did not have a tram system at that time to connect to.

All those would be true for a tram conversion like the Oldham Loop, but not for tram-train operation as will at some point be operating in Rotherham. The line through Rotherham remains 100% compatible with heavy rail operation, and the tram-trains have extra equipment for compatibility with Network Rail. Platforms are low but the only shared station retains its high platforms too, and the tram-trains have extending steps so the platforms can be positioned outside the structure gauge.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I am sorry, but tram does not compare to a heavy rail vehicle in the ride experience. At one time, the Harrogate Loop was to be used in the tram-train experiment until it was realised that through trains from Kings Cross would be unable to use the line between Leeds and Horsforth as operating was to be line of sight without conventional signals, platform heights would be different and extended towards the nearest rail. Thank goodness Leeds did not have a tram system at that time to connect to.

Perhaps not the volumes of the 1950s but passenger footfall has doubled in the last 12 years and capacity has to increase to meet that growth and that means investment to upgrade lines like that to Blackpool South for those who choose to live on the Fylde and work in Preston, Liverpool and Manchester. Investment happens elsewhere particularly around London so why should the North miss out all the time.

Just imagine a nice new three car electric unit operating from Lytham to Manchester in under an hour compared with a two car, 75 mph Pacer to Colne and having to change at Preston. How attractive that would be to leave the car at home for your daily commute.

Are the passenger figure known for the amount of commuters each day eastwards from North and South lines for comparison?

From Blackpool South to Manchester would be more like it! (Bloomfield ward is one of the most deprived in the country)
Please note the first 2 trains leave Blackpool South to Preston before Blackpool's Bus and Tram system wakes up. A taxi fare of £5/6 to North? Blackpool South station is well placed in South Shore shopping area, and on a busy bus hub, and not far from the tramway. A return to St Annes is cheaper than the bus.
The pro tramway are grant hunting Blackpool Council, and a pressure group in Lytham.
IMO good routes for new tramways would be Blackpool South to Central Station and linking to tramway. Also Fleetwood to Poulton. How they will timetable the proposed North Station link - may not be popular especially if you don't want to go there.?
Blackpool's trams are slow, partly due to running on the promenade, and level crossings. The buses are faster and more comfortable lol!

Would you not think that the new housing will be an improvement of what was once there on that particular site?

I felt that huge site was a rare opportunity for a tramway park and ride and incorporate a bus and rail hub (Squire’s Gate).

 

[deltic08]

From Blackpool South to Manchester would be more like it! (Bloomfield ward is one of the most deprived in the country)
Please note the first 2 trains leave Blackpool South to Preston before Blackpool's Bus and Tram system wakes up. A taxi fare of £5/6 to North? Blackpool South station is well placed in South Shore shopping area, and on a busy bus hub, and not far from the tramway. A return to St Annes is cheaper than the bus.
The pro tramway are grant hunting Blackpool Council, and a pressure group in Lytham.
IMO good routes for new tramways would be Blackpool South to Central Station and linking to tramway. Also Fleetwood to Poulton. How they will timetable the proposed North Station link - may not be popular especially if you don't want to go there.?
Blackpool's trams are slow, partly due to running on the promenade, and level crossings. The buses are faster and more comfortable lol!.

I was responding to a comment from a Lytham resident but I agree Blackpool South should be electrified and the line should be extended to a two platform Central station.

 

[Lankyline]

I was responding to a comment from a Lytham resident but I agree Blackpool South should be electrified and the line should be extended to a two platform Central station.

Whilst that would be a logical move extending to a "new" Central station and there wouldn't be a problem with routing through the worlds biggest car park, you could certainly get close to the original station location.

Its whether the council would have the political "will" to consider such a move, plus would it actually increase passenger numbers given the single track nature of the line ? Can't ever see it being electrified.

 

[AngelicUpstart]

Whilst that would be a logical move extending to a "new" Central station and there wouldn't be a problem with routing through the worlds biggest car park, you could certainly get close to the original station location.

Its whether the council would have the political "will" to consider such a move, plus would it actually increase passenger numbers given the single track nature of the line ? Can't ever see it being electrified.

There wouldn't be a problem routing through the car park? Well for starters you'd have to rebuild Waterloo Road Bridge (it's too weak, that's why it was filled in), Bloomfield Road Bridge (and since the South Stand at Bloomfield Road and the Travellodge were built, you'd be tight for space), Rigby Road Bridge and Chapel Street Bridge (both of which you'd have to deal with what would become a restricted height bridge issue), No, no problem at all.

Extending the line back to Blackpool Central is never going to happen, ever!

 

[edwin_m]

Extending to Central would definitely require a passing loop somewhere in the Lytham/St Annes area because, as mentioned further up, it takes only just under an hour to go from Kirkham to South and back. Extending to Central with a 30min interval would need at least two passing loops. However I don't think a second platform at Central would be a sensible use of money because a train would have to wait there for 30min or an hour until the next one arrived, before it could leave. Turnaround time would be less than this if the trains passed at an intermediate station.

 

[deltic08]

There wouldn't be a problem routing through the car park? Well for starters you'd have to rebuild Waterloo Road Bridge (it's too weak, that's why it was filled in), Bloomfield Road Bridge (and since the South Stand at Bloomfield Road and the Travellodge were built, you'd be tight for space), Rigby Road Bridge and Chapel Street Bridge (both of which you'd have to deal with what would become a restricted height bridge issue), No, no problem at all.

What are you man or mouse? A couple of bridges is no problem. How many were replaced on the Preston-Blackpool North route during preparation for electrification? I can't recall whinging from anybody when that was proposed.

 

[WatcherZero]

Funnily enough Blackpool has just been ranked as one of the worst authorities in the country for proportion of understrength bridges.

 

[D60]

What are you man or mouse? A couple of bridges is no problem. How many were replaced on the Preston-Blackpool North route during preparation for electrification? I can't recall whinging from anybody when that was proposed.

Thing is, there is no will whatsoever within Blackpool Council to see a single line extension from South to Central... Indeed it was Blackpool Council in the 1960s who ensured that Beeching's recommendation was overturned, and that North was retained instead of Central, and that the line through Lytham and St Annes would be downgraded from main line status to that of a branch... And it is down to the actions of Blackpool Council in the '60s that this thread is now discussing electrification to Blackpool North, and not that of the route through Lytham and St Annes to Central..

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thing is, there is no will whatsoever within Blackpool Council to see a single line extension from South to Central... Indeed it was Blackpool Council in the 1960s who ensured that Beeching's recommendation was overturned, and that North was retained instead of Central, and that the line through Lytham and St Annes would be downgraded from main line status to that of a branch... And it is down to the actions of Blackpool Council in the '60s that this thread is now discussing electrification to Blackpool North, and not that of the route through Lytham and St Annes to Central..

Who decided to cut the Blackpool North line back to the excursion station and abandon the original terminus (which is now another car park)?
I don't know Blackpool town well, but it would have been a much more convenient place than the remote and awkwardly sited current station.
It doesn't need even the 6 platforms of the future rebuild, let alone the current 7.
I would have thought 4/5 would be sufficient.
The current station leads you straight into a busy link road with a stinking tunnel for pedestrians to reach the town.
It's also a long way from "the front".

 

[D60]

Who decided to cut the Blackpool North line back to the excursion station and abandon the original terminus (which is now another car park)?
I don't know Blackpool town well, but it would have been a much more convenient place than the remote and awkwardly sited current station.
It doesn't need even the 6 platforms of the future rebuild, let alone the current 7.
I would have thought 4/5 would be sufficient.
The current station leads you straight into a busy link road with a stinking tunnel for pedestrians to reach the town.
It's also a long way from "the front".

Not sure about Blackpool North, probably a BR rationalisation/downsizing/re-development opportunity type decision.. but I doubt Blackpool Council put up any resistance to the plan... (yes the former, tramway-connected, Dickson Road station site is now a supermarket/multi-storey car park, with a link road cut through, as you describe.. with the current Blackpool North occupying the former excursion platforms)..

 

[WatcherZero]

Closure of Blackpool central was council lobbying to free land for redevelopment. Beeching proposal was to close North.

 

[Elecman]

And the redevelopment has still not happened!

 

[Dixie]

Surely a low cost electrification scheme could be applied to Blackpool South, i.e. like the ones used on French lines such as that to Bourg St Maurice, similar to, I suppose, the electrified sidings at Edge Hill.

You can see what I mean at 1:00 onwards on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDZv202DdQA

 

[WatcherZero]

And the redevelopment has still not happened!

Wiki article says it was used for some street arcades, coral island, a police station and a multistory, couple of decades later surface car parks and a new A road were also built?

 

[158756]

Surely a low cost electrification scheme could be applied to Blackpool South, i.e. like the ones used on French lines such as that to Bourg St Maurice, similar to, I suppose, the electrified sidings at Edge Hill.

You can see what I mean at 1:00 onwards on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDZv202DdQA

What does 'low cost electrification' cost in the UK? About twice as much as standard electrification supposedly cost a few years ago? Never going to happen. This thread wouldn't even exist if DfT/Network Rail understood the true costs of electrification. In the current political and economic climate Blackpool South is more likely to close than be electrified.

 

[D60]

[/RIGHT]695]What does 'low cost electrification' cost in the UK? About twice as much as standard electrification supposedly cost a few years ago? Never going to happen. This thread wouldn't even exist if DfT/Network Rail understood the true costs of electrification. In the current political and economic climate Blackpool South is more likely to close than be electrified.

I've just re-checked the info in the Blackpool Gazette article linked to in post #3905, the post that prompted this diversion down the South Fylde Line... And yep, calls from Fylde (not Blackpool) politicians at local Council and Parliamentary level, for a doubling of service provision from hourly to half-hourly.. in response to an (almost) doubling of passenger numbers in less than a decade... (they are not calling for electrification of the line at this stage..)..
First we have forum members proposing disconnection/truncation/annexation or otherwise conversion to tramway status... And now someone talking about closure of the line !!
Please.. again... Hands off our rail link !!

 

[Lankyline]

I could never understand the logic of retaining Blackpool south after it was singled, pre Beeching, you had 3 stations all double tracked, Central with 14 platforms, North with 16, I think and South with 4. This was one time that Beeching got it right in recommending North's closure, you then would have had the right location for a station, till the council stepped in !

Yes electrification won't happen for the South line, the cost factors are just too high to justify in this day and age. effectively the council screwed up, by favouring North over Central, they could have had the opportunity to create a "Metrolink" type operation for the South line, even possibly Fleetwood/Poulton, its not as if the infrastructure wasn't already there.

So now they are stuck with North station with no connection potential and an electrification programme that, imo, still won't bring back the level of services that once ran into Blackpool, despite what Virgin say.

Sorry, but I think electrification is a waste of money, by all means upgrade track and signalling, realign track and rationalise platforms. the money saved could have been better spent on other projects in the North west

 

[AngelicUpstart]

I could never understand the logic of retaining Blackpool south after it was singled, pre Beeching, you had 3 stations all double tracked, Central with 14 platforms, North with 16, I think and South with 4. This was one time that Beeching got it right in recommending North's closure, you then would have had the right location for a station, till the council stepped in !

Yes electrification won't happen for the South line, the cost factors are just too high to justify in this day and age. effectively the council screwed up, by favouring North over Central, they could have had the opportunity to create a "Metrolink" type operation for the South line, even possibly Fleetwood/Poulton, its not as if the infrastructure wasn't already there.

So now they are stuck with North station with no connection potential and an electrification programme that, imo, still won't bring back the level of services that once ran into Blackpool, despite what Virgin say.

Sorry, but I think electrification is a waste of money, by all means upgrade track and signalling, realign track and rationalise platforms. the money saved could have been better spent on other projects in the North west

The only way that Blackpool Central would have survived over North is for the direct route from Kirkham to remain open. If that had happened Lytham St Annes would have been even more marginalised as their line, if that had even remained open, would have become a slow loop off the fast lines. Closing Central, while controversial, was the correct decision for Blackpool.

To the people who say re-development hasn't happened, I counter a motorway, a major link road, Coral Island, a police station and magistrates court, a coach station, a school, a Travellodge, Bloomfield Road Stadium, and that's before you start on the things that have happened, like Whitehills Business Park, as a result of the motorway. Oh and a little thing like a massive car park that allows people to visit Blackpool, a place that relies on visitors. Yes, you might not like that they come by car, but the simple fact is they probably wouldn't come by train. Family of 4, in a car from your front door, £20 of fuel and £5 to park the car, or two adults and 2 children at £15 for the adults and travel to the railway station, you do the maths!

 

[D60]

The only way that Blackpool Central would have survived over North is for the direct route from Kirkham to remain open. If that had happened Lytham St Annes would have been even more marginalised as their line, if that had even remained open, would have become a slow loop off the fast lines. Closing Central, while controversial, was the correct decision for Blackpool.

To the people who say re-development hasn't happened, I counter a motorway, a major link road, Coral Island, a police station and magistrates court, a coach station, a school, a Travellodge, Bloomfield Road Stadium, and that's before you start on the things that have happened, like Whitehills Business Park, as a result of the motorway. Oh and a little thing like a massive car park that allows people to visit Blackpool, a place that relies on visitors. Yes, you might not like that they come by car, but the simple fact is they probably wouldn't come by train. Family of 4, in a car from your front door, £20 of fuel and £5 to park the car, or two adults and 2 children at £15 for the adults and travel to the railway station, you do the maths!

It's baffling... In response to a newspaper article which details an (almost) doubling of passenger numbers in less than a decade (economic rationale), and local politicians backing an increase in service provision (political will)... Yet here on a railway forum we have members determined to talk down the value and prospects of a rail line that links communities with the rest of Lancashire and beyond.. for purposes of commuting to work, and bringing visitors and daytrippers in...

(The Beeching/BR Board recommendation under 'Re-shaping the Railways' was to retain the main line to Central via Lytham and St Annes, close the Direct Line, and dispense with North...)

(And talk of a 'Metrolink' style conversion to tramway status... Metrolink connects people with where they want or require to travel to... Conversion of the South Fylde Line to tramway status would not achieve this aim, but instead would break and disrupt the line's travel patterns..)..

Yes this is all a (kind of) off-topic diversion that might be irritating to some... It would be helpful if forum members were not apparently so keen to downplay, disconnect, or disrupt our rail service...

Thanks..

D60 'Lytham St Annes'

 

[AngelicUpstart]

It's baffling... In response to a newspaper article which details an (almost) doubling of passenger numbers in less than a decade (economic rationale), and local politicians backing an increase in service provision (political will)... Yet here on a railway forum we have members determined to talk down the value and prospects of a rail line that links communities with the rest of Lancashire and beyond.. for purposes of commuting to work, and bringing visitors and daytrippers in...

(The Beeching/BR Board recommendation under 'Re-shaping the Railways' was to retain the main line to Central via Lytham and St Annes, close the Direct Line, and dispense with North...)

(And talk of a 'Metrolink' style conversion to tramway status... Metrolink connects people with where they want or require to travel to... Conversion of the South Fylde Line to tramway status would not achieve this aim, but instead would break and disrupt the line's travel patterns..)..

Yes this is all a (kind of) off-topic diversion that might be irritating to some... It would be helpful if forum members were not apparently so keen to downplay, disconnect, or disrupt our rail service...

Thanks..

D60 'Lytham St Annes'

I'm not talking down the Blackpool South line at all, it is was it is. I regularly commuted on it for 10 years so I know what it's like very well. It's doing quite nicely but has one major issue it's a long siding. I'm just pointing out that any fantasy idea of reopening Blackpool Central are just that, absolute fantasy!

To add another comment into there, Kirkham to Blackpool North 15 minutes, Kirkham to Blackpool "Central" over 30 (it's 28 to South). So people think a way to enhance a service is to double the journey time?

 

[deltic08]

Closure of Blackpool central was council lobbying to free land for redevelopment. Beeching proposal was to close North.

Well, they really got on with it with some urgency then. Bit of a useless council if you ask me. Central station site has been a bombsite for over 50 years. A new station right on the front almost to the Tower would tidy it up as well as being an asset for visitors who contribute £millions to the local economy.

Not everyone has a car, can afford a car, or is able to drive. If the alternate rail connection is unattractive then visitors go where it is. They do not have to go to Blackpool. For me the only attraction Blackpool had was the old trams. New trams do not attract me anymore by car or by rail.

 

[seasidersfan]

It's baffling... In response to a newspaper article which details an (almost) doubling of passenger numbers in less than a decade (economic rationale), and local politicians backing an increase in service provision (political will)... Yet here on a railway forum we have members determined to talk down the value and prospects of a rail line that links communities with the rest of Lancashire and beyond.. for purposes of commuting to work, and bringing visitors and daytrippers in...

(The Beeching/BR Board recommendation under 'Re-shaping the Railways' was to retain the main line to Central via Lytham and St Annes, close the Direct Line, and dispense with North...)

(And talk of a 'Metrolink' style conversion to tramway status... Metrolink connects people with where they want or require to travel to... Conversion of the South Fylde Line to tramway status would not achieve this aim, but instead would break and disrupt the line's travel patterns..)..

Yes this is all a (kind of) off-topic diversion that might be irritating to some... It would be helpful if forum members were not apparently so keen to downplay, disconnect, or disrupt our rail service...

Thanks..

D60 'Lytham St Annes'

A tram connection IS what is required for this line and it's what is needed to secure long term potential.

Statistically more people travel from St Annes and Lytham to Blackpool than to Preston and beyond.

We're also talking about 5 million plus on the tramway versus a few hundred thousand on this line. That would surely bring in tourists from Blackpool and boost the economy.

It'd help local residents get to their nearest stops without walking (there would be more stops) and it'd connect to jobs, business and attractions in Blackpool as instead of ending at Blackpool South which connects to none of these. There would be at least a 15 minute service, double what even a passing loop would provide.

It'd also likely connect directly to Blackpool North so offering passengers more choice of service without changing at Preston.

Please bear in mind I recognise the importance of keeping direct services from St Annes to Preston etc. If a solution such as parallel routing with heavy rail like in Croydon etc was done you could have best of both worlds.

Most of the local residents support this solution based on campaign groups and petitions, it's been a long term goal for generations. And now that Blackpool has a successful expanding light rail system it needs to happen.

Rant over.

 

[snowball]

I've created this thread in the hope that the people who are currently discussing this subject in the Blackpool-Manchester Electrification thread will continue the discussion here and not there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not following the other thread, but I could see a lot of benefit in the Blackpool tramway taking over that section of line. Passengers would then change at Kirkham onto a more frequent tramway service.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I think total tram conversion is the best option. Improving the service will require redoubling and electrification, and if heavy rail services are to continue running then these will need to be done to full heavy rail standard. That could well be even more expensive than the simple electrification and partial redoubling to allow a 2tph service that would otherwise happen, as you would need full doubling along the whole length of the route so that the higher-frequency tram service can run too.

I don't see there being much of an advantage to sending heavy rail trains down the route after a tram service begins anyway. There's plenty of capacity at Blackpool North for any redirected trains, while journey times would go down for longer-distance travellers. Using the Blackpool North extension you could run the South line tram service as a loop connecting back to the mainline at both ends. Then passengers along the line would have the choice of heading to either end for mainline connectivity, with a higher frequency service than the current interchange at Kirkham or Preston would allow.

Turning Kirkham into an interchange station would not be an impossible task, and there would be the possibility of taking the tram that kilometre or more further into the town itself. Trams and tram-trains provide the opportunity to bring the transport mode to where people actually are, rather than where the railway company built their lines and stations. The best analogue for the Blackpool South conversion idea is the Oldham Loop and that has been a massive success, particularly as it has made the route more accessible to everyone. The short tram extension into Rochdale town centre has made the line fundamentally more useful for the people of the area. Now, someone in Milnrow heading for the shops in Rochdale has a real alternative to car, bus or taxi. The connection at the station for mainline services is still there and is better than it ever has been before, but now it's able to help them go about their daily business as well as helping them at the weekends when they head into Manchester.

 

[D60]

So here we go again, knew it was kind of inevitable that as soon as someone posted a link to a newspaper story indicating a (almost) doubling of passenger numbers on the line, and calls from Fylde politicians at local Council and Parliamentary level for a doubling of service provision on the line to half-hourly by way of a passing loop mid-way.. people would emerge agitating for conversion to tramway status (as they have on 'another thread').. which would inevitably break and disrupt existing travel patterns on the line.. the importance and value of which is as a through direct connection to the national network and to the rest of Lancashire and beyond, for means of commuting to work, and for bringing in visitors and daytrippers.. to the communities of Lytham, St Annes, and the economically disadvantaged South Shore of Blackpool...
(People in Lytham St Annes with long enough memories will know that it was the lobbying and intervention of Blackpool Council in the 1960s that resulted in the downgrading of the line through South Fylde in the first place... They've already annexed our bus operator... Hands off our direct through link to the national network.... Thanks....)..

D60 'Lytham St Annes'