Future of the Blackpool South line

[seasidersfan]

I'll repost this from the other thread because my post still applies. I too would like to see full conversion but as has been brought up, keeping the heavy rail link is important:

A tram connection IS what is required for this line and it's what is needed to secure long term potential.

Statistically more people travel from St Annes and Lytham to Blackpool than to Preston and beyond.

We're also talking about 5 million plus on the tramway versus a few hundred thousand on this line. Even if you potentially double that it's still not even close. That would surely bring in tourists from Blackpool and boost the economy.

It'd help local residents get to their nearest stops without walking (there would be more stops) and it'd connect to jobs, business and attractions in Blackpool as instead of ending at Blackpool South which connects to none of these. There would be at least a 15 minute service, double what even a passing loop would provide.

It'd also likely connect directly to Blackpool North so offering passengers more choice of service without changing at Preston.

Please bear in mind I recognise the importance of keeping direct services from St Annes to Preston etc. If a solution such as parallel routing with heavy rail like in Croydon etc was done you could have best of both worlds.

Most of the local residents support this solution based on campaign groups and petitions, it's been a long term goal for generations. And now that Blackpool has a successful expanding light rail system it needs to happen.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The best analogue for the Blackpool South conversion idea is the Oldham Loop and that has been a massive success, particularly as it has made the route more accessible to everyone. The short tram extension into Rochdale town centre has made the line fundamentally more useful for the people of the area. Now, someone in Milnrow heading for the shops in Rochdale has a real alternative to car, bus or taxi. The connection at the station for mainline services is still there and is better than it ever has been before, but now it's able to help them go about their daily business as well as helping them at the weekends when they head into Manchester.

One benefit on the Metrolink line you describe above, was the line section from Shaw to Rochdale was doubled as in the past days prior to the singling of that line section, with just the exception of the single line over a bridge in the Rochdale area.

 

[D60]

The Manchester Metrolink connects people with where they want and require to go. Such a conversion of the South Fylde Line to tramway status would not achieve this aim... The overwhelming majority of passengers on the platform at St Annes (and others on the line) are looking to travel to Preston and beyond on the national network.. not North Pier or Fleetwood on the Blackpool tramway..!

 

[seasidersfan]

The Manchester Metrolink connects people with where they want and require to go. Such a conversion of the South Fylde Line to tramway status would not achieve this aim... The overwhelming majority of passengers on the platform at St Annes (and others on the line) are looking to travel to Preston and beyond on the national network.. not North Pier or Fleetwood on the Blackpool tramway..!

Actually that's incorrect. The Fylde Coast Highways and Transport Masterplan presents data that shows the most popular travel destination from the Fylde borough is Blackpool.

Even if this wasn't true, connecting the north and south lines by tram will give residents more choice to access the national network.

 

[D6975]

What route are people thinking of south of Starr Gate?
Turn left immediately, towards the airport then turn right onto the current heavy rail route, or continue straight on with a mix of reserved and street running, joining the heavy rail route down near Lytham?

 

[D60]

Actually that's incorrect. The Fylde Coast Highways and Transport Masterplan presents data that shows the most popular travel destination from the Fylde borough is Blackpool.

Even if this wasn't true, connecting the north and south lines by tram will give residents more choice to access the national network.

I was referring to existing (and future) users of the service, who would clearly benefit from a doubling in service provision and the maintaining of through direct services onto the national network.. as called for by Fylde (but not Blackpool) politicians...
(Reference to the 'Highways and Transport Masterplan'.. yes highway provision between the neighbouring boroughs is currently a mess... The 2 decades-long-promised link road between the back of Lytham, St Annes and Blackpool, promised as part of a previous phase of housebuilding urgently needs to be progressed... And, dependent on the current and future status of Blackpool Airport and its proposed redevelopment, re-instatement of the original thoroughfare between St Annes and Blackpool (St Annes Road in Blackpool and Blackpool Road in St Annes, with a pub called Halfway House halfway..) that which pre-dates either of the current road-links and the original bus link between St Annes and Blackpool.. and thus a doubling of highway provision between the 2 communities..)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be interesting to know what the spread of destinations is. If it's mostly to Preston or London/Scotland then tramification might be a disadvantage as it would require two changes for a journey presently needing one.

However, those going to Blackpool itself would gain by being connected more directly to the centre rather than a car park on the south side, while those going to Manchester would not be disadvantaged as they would still have one change, just at Kirkham instead of Preston. I doubt Blackburn/Colne are majority destinations, the join between those is really for operational convenience, and it could instead interwork with the new higher frequency Ormskirk service.

 

[seasidersfan]

I was referring to existing (and future) users of the service, who would clearly benefit from a doubling in service provision and the maintaining of through direct services onto the national network.. as called for by Fylde (but not Blackpool) politicians...
(Reference to the 'Highways and Transport Masterplan'.. yes highway provision between the neighbouring boroughs is currently a mess... The 2 decades-long-promised link road between the back of Lytham, St Annes and Blackpool, promised as part of a previous phase of housebuilding urgently needs to be progressed... And, dependent on the current and future status of Blackpool Airport and its proposed redevelopment, re-instatement of the original thoroughfare between St Annes and Blackpool (St Annes Road in Blackpool and Blackpool Road in St Annes, with a pub called Halfway House halfway..) that which pre-dates either of the current road-links and the original bus link between St Annes and Blackpool.. and thus a doubling of highway provision between the 2 communities..)

I agree that the majority of the CURRENT users of the service go to Preston and beyond. However that does not mean they make up the majority of all journeys, far from it.

As you say better transport provision between Blackpool and St Anne's is needed, as bus services are often delayed and there is much congestion on Clifton Drive. Who knows if link road promises will ever come to fruition?

That's why we need a new, fast light rail link. The project is aimed at bus and car users equally as much as rail.

 

[seasidersfan]

What route are people thinking of south of Starr Gate?
Turn left immediately, towards the airport then turn right onto the current heavy rail route, or continue straight on with a mix of reserved and street running, joining the heavy rail route down near Lytham?

I'd say either something like the first one you say or join up further up the line just south of the Pleasure Beach.

 

[pdeaves]

I for one do not support conversion to tram. When I was last in the area, not long after the NEW! IMPROVED! tramway opened, the Blackpool tram operator did not appear at all interested in Fleetwood (over 2 hour wait for a tram to get back to Blackpool, grrrr). I wouldn't see any greater interest in running to Kirkham.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I was referring to existing (and future) users of the service, who would clearly benefit from a doubling in service provision and the maintaining of through direct services onto the national network.. as called for by Fylde (but not Blackpool) politicians...
(Reference to the 'Highways and Transport Masterplan'.. yes highway provision between the neighbouring boroughs is currently a mess... The 2 decades-long-promised link road between the back of Lytham, St Annes and Blackpool, promised as part of a previous phase of housebuilding urgently needs to be progressed... And, dependent on the current and future status of Blackpool Airport and its proposed redevelopment, re-instatement of the original thoroughfare between St Annes and Blackpool (St Annes Road in Blackpool and Blackpool Road in St Annes, with a pub called Halfway House halfway..) that which pre-dates either of the current road-links and the original bus link between St Annes and Blackpool.. and thus a doubling of highway provision between the 2 communities..)

The question is whether more people would benefit from a 2tph heavy rail service, or from a far more frequent tram service. Yes, passenger numbers would increase with a loop and electrification, but they would increase with a tram too. In all likelihood, the tram would see even more people use it because it would be better able to compete with buses, cars and taxis on the boring journeys that people take every day. It's rather understandable on a rail enthusiast forum to think that heavy rail is the be-all and end-all of transport planning but nothing could be further from the truth. Heavy rail is really useful at carrying large numbers of people at high speeds over long distances but that's not really what the Blackpool South line does particularly well, and basically never will do.

If you're in Blackpool and you want to take the train to Preston, Liverpool or Manchester, then a concentrated express service focussed on the North line is far more useful than a mish-mash of services which are trying to do lots of things at once. Since the express service is significantly more convenient and faster than alternative modes, you'll happily travel slightly further to a rail head to access it. We've seen this all across the UK where park-and-ride stations have been very successful on routes with a fast service into a congested city centre. The Blackpool South line will never be able to appeal to these passengers, even if it might actually be closer to them, because the service will never be as convenient or fast as the one on the North line. Running two separate express lines is simply not economically worthwhile in any way, shape or form. Instead, everything is better if you focus one of them on the express service, leaving the other for more local routes. The North line is already pretty much optimal for that sort of service so no changes will need made other than electrification. The South line on the other hand is very much not optimised for more local travel. The most optimal way of providing a purely local rail service along a railway corridor is to employ tram technology, as the infrastructure and running costs go way down while the benefits you can provide go way up.

When money is involved, you have to consider everything totally dispassionately. If there is not a strong financial case for a scheme, then it is unlikely to be funded simply because there are so many other worthy schemes up and down the country that could be. The best chance of getting improvements is to propose a scheme which will reduce subsidy, as then it will free up money in future for these other worthy causes. Holding out for an alternative which will never happen isn't a good use of anyone's time, and means that people lose out on the benefits that could be had by doing something.

 

[Chester1]

Would extending trams only to St Annes on Sea be a better option than Lytham St Annes? It would reduce the amount of track to convert to about a mile and a half and allow a slightly larger distance between Squires Gate and Blackpool South to be closed. The journey time of 20 minutes between St Annes and Kirkham is pathetically slow and if it were reduced to 13 minutes then a half hourly service to Preston could be introduced. I don't think this would need electrification, new signalling or a passing loop but would need the track relayed to support 60mph or more. Its not unreasonable to expect people to change between tram and train. Neither upgrading all of the existing line or extending the trams to Kirkham are financially sound choices.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you're going to do it, it should go all the way to Kirkham in my view.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

In the 2009 RUS Electrification - never forget Option D. So there was A primarily passengers, Option B primarily freight, Option C a diversionary route - and - and - OPTION D- new Journey opportunities.

I say Kirkham to Blackpool South gives A, C and D - so I am for heavy rail and electrification.

 

[seasidersfan]

Would extending trams only to St Annes on Sea be a better option than Lytham St Annes? It would reduce the amount of track to convert to about a mile and a half and allow a slightly larger distance between Squires Gate and Blackpool South to be closed. The journey time of 20 minutes between St Annes and Kirkham is pathetically slow and if it were reduced to 13 minutes then a half hourly service to Preston could be introduced. I don't think this would need electrification, new signalling or a passing loop but would need the track relayed to support 60mph or more. Its not unreasonable to expect people to change between tram and train. Neither upgrading all of the existing line or extending the trams to Kirkham are financially sound choices.

Possibly yeah. Could maube do full conversion from St Annes to Blackpool, and then two single tracks for heavy/light rail to Lytham. That way both St Annes and Lytham keep heavy rail and get trams.

 

[NotATrainspott]

In the 2009 RUS Electrification - never forget Option D. So there was A primarily passengers, Option B primarily freight, Option C a diversionary route - and - and - OPTION D- new Journey opportunities.

I say Kirkham to Blackpool South gives A, C and D - so I am for heavy rail and electrification.

It isn't valuable as a diversionary route unless you build far more infrastructure than would be needed for 364 days of the year. It's a branch line that happens to end up in the same town as a regional main line. A diversionary route worthy of electrification is one which connects two important electrified regions and has the infrastructure in place to take more services. Wigan-Bolton, for instance. Bolton-Blackburn-Preston? Not so much.

Where would a second train per hour on the Blackpool South line go? Given the number of stops, it would have to be a relatively local destination where you would run a stopping service. Extending a stopping service from Manchester would be of dubious utility and may not be possible without additional overtaking opportunities. The best candidate for through running is the same one that it currently uses - the Colne Valley line. Then you can improve services on both lines and give both of them better links to Preston for onward connections. However, there's no point wiring up the South line if the trains will need to run without wires up to Colne. You would have to wire up the whole thing at once to make it worthwhile, and that line is well down the list of priorities for electrification.

Remember that tram conversion works can be done outside of the Network Rail world. Instead of needing to wait for other, more valuable schemes to be completed you can just go straight to tram infrastructure contractors and have them do it. Off-street tram construction is cheap and easy.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Possibly yeah. Could maube do full conversion from St Annes to Blackpool, and then two single tracks for heavy/light rail to Lytham. That way both St Annes and Lytham keep heavy rail and get trams.

However, then your heavy rail service becomes worse for the people in Preston or up the Colne Valley who want to go to Blackpool. You would have to send it to Blackpool North instead for it to continue being useful. At that point, what train do you have left to run along the shortened branch line? Can you justify using a train to run a Preston-Lytham shuttle? A Lytham-Kirkham shuttle may as well be done by the same trams that have come from the rest of the route. I think a turnback may be in order so that not every tram has to continue all the way to Kirkham but you could still have a basic turn-up-and-go service.

 

[Chester1]

Possibly yeah. Could maube do full conversion from St Annes to Blackpool, and then two single tracks for heavy/light rail to Lytham. That way both St Annes and Lytham keep heavy rail and get trams.

That length of single track would impose opperational limitations on the rest of the tram system. Any conversion will be funded mostly or entirely by Blackpool Council so it will be their choice. I expect that Network Rail would agree to any extension because it will reduce its liabilities and reduce the cost of any heavy rail upgrades.

 

[D60]

Thing is, there are two principal and distinct traffic flows on the line... Peak time commuter traffic in the Preston direction and beyond (we've established upthread that the, in my experience overwhelming, majority of passengers from St Annes station are heading in the Preston direction, not to North Pier or Fleetwood)...
And off-peak visitor and daytripper traffic, bringing visitors direct from inland Lancashire and beyond, to Lytham, St Annes, and the economically disadvantaged South Shore of Blackpool... At weekends during the season, 4-car trains bring visitors direct from East Lancs to Blackpool's South Shore... Indeed, it was the re-instatement of the station at Pleasure Beach (former Burlington Road) around 3 decades ago that led to re-instatement of Sunday services on the line after a gap of nearly 2 decades...
Breaking and disrupting these traffic flows through tramway conversion would be clearly to the detriment of current and future users of the line.. (in favour of a clearly Blackpool-centric agenda!)..

 

[Chester1]

Was a temporary platform extension at Blackpool South considered for diversion for Blackpool Norths 3 month closure? An hourly 9 coach Blackpool South - Kirkham - Lytham - St Annes - Preston service would be better than changing onto coaches at Poulton. A bus service could replace the smaller stops.

 

[D60]

Possibly yeah. Could maube do full conversion from St Annes to Blackpool, and then two single tracks for heavy/light rail to Lytham. That way both St Annes and Lytham keep heavy rail and get trams.

This might've worked... Except that circa 1988/90, 2 sections of the former double width trackbed either side of Ansdell station were sold off (for an internal roadway on Royal Lytham golf course on the St Annes side.. and for a strip of housing on the Lytham side).. plus the track was slewed to the centre of the formation and raised in height around Skew Bridge/Witch Wood post-singling in the mid-80s, in a persistently wet location where the cess either side of the track forms a sump with nowhere for the water to drain to...
(Despite these encroachments either side of Ansdell station, I believe there is still room for a passing loop at Ansdell.. though clearly not for an operationally useful longer dynamic loop..)..

 

[D60]

('Colne Valley' ^^... Where's that..? Yorkshire? Essex? Ambitious aspirations for tramway conversion to the Lancashire coast..!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thing is, there are two principal and distinct traffic flows on the line... Peak time commuter traffic in the Preston direction and beyond

But are they mostly going to Preston or beyond it?

If the latter, moving the change to Kirkham is no great issue.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Was a temporary platform extension at Blackpool South considered for diversion for Blackpool Norths 3 month closure? An hourly 9 coach Blackpool South - Kirkham - Lytham - St Annes - Preston service would be better than changing onto coaches at Poulton. A bus service could replace the smaller stops.

IIRC - Kirkham has a total blockade that runs at the same time though admittedly of shorter duration.

 

[Bevan Price]

I know this will not happen, but what I would like to see is the line redoubled, electrified and extended to a new town centre station close to the site of Blackpool Central.

1. Terminating the line at Blackpool South, over one mile from the town centre, was incredibly stupid, and probably deterred a lot of potential passengers.

2. Apart from (I think) two removed / blocked bridges and a car park, there is little other than money preventing extension beyond Blackpool South.

3. Property in the way is not a problem when they build a new road - or HS2 - and can be removed, given the willpower - and the money for compulsory purchase.

4. Lytham to Kirkham is about 6 miles of mostly lightly populated countryside - not very attractive to tram operators, so I don't see anyone wanting to run trams over that section.

As for services over an electrified line, I would suggest hourly to Manchester (maybe taking over the Preston - Hazel Grove paths, and hourly to Preston (whilst hoping that the East Lancs & Copy Pit routes might eventually be electrified....). The existing locals from/to Colne would run only as far as Preston (Burnley, Accrington & Blackburn would still have their through trains to/from Blackpool North.)

 

[NotATrainspott]

I know this will not happen, but what I would like to see is the line redoubled, electrified and extended to a new town centre station close to the site of Blackpool Central.

1. Terminating the line at Blackpool South, over one mile from the town centre, was incredibly stupid, and probably deterred a lot of potential passengers.

2. Apart from (I think) two removed / blocked bridges and a car park, there is little other than money preventing extension beyond Blackpool South.

3. Property in the way is not a problem when they build a new road - or HS2 - and can be removed, given the willpower - and the money for compulsory purchase.

4. Lytham to Kirkham is about 6 miles of mostly lightly populated countryside - not very attractive to tram operators, so I don't see anyone wanting to run trams over that section.

As for services over an electrified line, I would suggest hourly to Manchester (maybe taking over the Preston - Hazel Grove paths, and hourly to Preston (whilst hoping that the East Lancs & Copy Pit routes might eventually be electrified....). The existing locals from/to Colne would run only as far as Preston (Burnley, Accrington & Blackburn would still have their through trains to/from Blackpool North.)

The few kilometres of countryside wouldn't really matter. Preserving the connection at Kirkham would be vital for the business case, and when the alignment already exists there would be really minimal cost involved in running trams along it. A turnback could be expected so that not every tram through Lytham would end up there, but you would still have a reasonable 4tph or so service.

 

[Busaholic]

So here we go again, knew it was kind of inevitable that as soon as someone posted a link to a newspaper story indicating a (almost) doubling of passenger numbers on the line, and calls from Fylde politicians at local Council and Parliamentary level for a doubling of service provision on the line to half-hourly by way of a passing loop mid-way.. people would emerge agitating for conversion to tramway status (as they have on 'another thread').. which would inevitably break and disrupt existing travel patterns on the line.. the importance and value of which is as a through direct connection to the national network and to the rest of Lancashire and beyond, for means of commuting to work, and for bringing in visitors and daytrippers.. to the communities of Lytham, St Annes, and the economically disadvantaged South Shore of Blackpool...
(People in Lytham St Annes with long enough memories will know that it was the lobbying and intervention of Blackpool Council in the 1960s that resulted in the downgrading of the line through South Fylde in the first place... They've already annexed our bus operator... Hands off our direct through link to the national network.... Thanks....)..

D60 'Lytham St Annes'

To be fair, Lytham St Annes Corporation buses would only have gone to Ribble (now Stagecoach) at a slightly later date if Blackpool had not made their move. I must say, though, that LSA were the epitome of a municipal operation to me, lovely livery and buses, always a joy to visit.

 

[D60]

But are they mostly going to Preston or beyond it?

If the latter, moving the change to Kirkham is no great issue.

Preston *and* beyond.. for both traffic patterns in either direction, as delineated above... Breaking and disrupting these traffic flows only suits a Blackpool-centric agenda...
(We still had a daily St Annes - Manchester and Greenbank (!) service until a few years ago, worked at various times by a 4-car 158 formation, and notably for a period, a Fragonset T&T class 31 + 4-car ex-IC/Cross-country mk2 formation..)..

(Trams to North Pier..? Not really what most passengers from St Annes, Lytham, etc, are looking for... And those from South Shore retain the benefit of train + tram + bus..)

 

[Bevan Price]

The few kilometres of countryside wouldn't really matter. Preserving the connection at Kirkham would be vital for the business case, and when the alignment already exists there would be really minimal cost involved in running trams along it. A turnback could be expected so that not every tram through Lytham would end up there, but you would still have a reasonable 4tph or so service.

I disagree - it does matter about the open countryside. Tram operators like urban areas with potential for picking up passengers at "stations" no more than 0.5 to 1 mile apart. I cannot think of any UK tram system - past or present - that has ever passed through 6 miles of nearly open countryside. Even bus operators are increasingly tending to reduce services that pass through long stretches of countryside.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you been to the northern bit of the Oldham loop? That's a primarily rural route.