Future of the Class 455 at Southern

[Class377/5]

I'd guess late 2016 or even 2017. The new trains have to replace the 319's first so they can be released for refurbishment and introduction on the new electrified lines. I suspect former Southern routes will be the last to see the new stock.

Off-Peak they are 4 4-car units per hour, these are coupled together to form 2 8-car trains per hour in the peak. I.e. no extra seats and thus extremely overcrowded trains on the Redhill route. Since the most recent timetable change they found an extra 4-car unit for one of the morning services, plus
2x 4-car units in the evening to extend to 12 car trains which is a great help.

What I don't get is that in the morning they run 2 12-car trains to Victoria but none back in the evening. Odd!

Under the last plan (from the summer so may be off by a few months) they'd start building the units in early 2013 and test them from Three Bridges before the first unit (12 cars) in passenger service around Jan/Feb 2015. Within 14 months the Thameslink fleet would be replaced. Sept/Oct 2015 would see the GN units introduced from Hornsey. Easter 2016 would see the first new units introduced on Southeastern and Southern routes wil complete roll out Feb 2017.

That plan is still achievable unless they delay the signing of the contract past Easter then it's going to get further delayed. The good news for Southern passengers is the deal is the 26x 377 units get replaced first so Southern will be the first to get a capacity boost from the Thameslink stock. One of the reasons why the 319 are going anywhere soon.

Peak flows only doing one way isn't anything new, but very annoying. Thameslink sees 2x 8 cars from Ashford and 1x 8 car from Rochester in the morning with 1x 8 cars to Ashford and 2x 8 cars to Rochester in the evening. I'm guessing it's historically and the original reason lost in operational needs from long ago.

 

[Minstral25]

Under the last plan (from the summer so may be off by a few months) they'd start building the units in early 2013 and test them from Three Bridges before the first unit (12 cars) in passenger service around Jan/Feb 2015. Within 14 months the Thameslink fleet would be replaced. Sept/Oct 2015 would see the GN units introduced from Hornsey. Easter 2016 would see the first new units introduced on Southeastern and Southern routes wil complete roll out Feb 2017.

That plan is still achievable unless they delay the signing of the contract past Easter then it's going to get further delayed. The good news for Southern passengers is the deal is the 26x 377 units get replaced first so Southern will be the first to get a capacity boost from the Thameslink stock. One of the reasons why the 319 are going anywhere soon.

Sounds like a good plan, pity they can't speed it up by a couple of years. I disagree that the 377's will be first out of the Thameslink fleet, the 319's are late already and Southern will be getting the 377/6's, even if that's the current plan

Any idea what will happen with the Tonbridge/Reigate branches as they can't take 8 or 12 car units and the new Thameslink units won't be able to split like the current units? Tonbridge can go back to stand alone but Reigate really needs a twice hourly service to London to serve the office community around the station.

I was also rereading your comments on the stabling. Will Three Bridges be exclusively 12 car units (except major maintenance) as no 8-car services head that way and Hornsey focus on the 8-car units on GN/Bedford locals. IIRC you (or SWT) placed the Thameslink route intentions on the forums before which stated Redhill route (Horsham/Three bridges) and Brighton trains would all be 12 car. The 8-car routes would be Caterham/Tattenham and some SE destinations from Luton/WGC

 

[Ministry]

No plans to scrap the GatEx yet, so as long as that stays so would the 442's. Even if it was scrapped, the 442's would probably stay with Southern (although it would be weird seeing them in Southern colours).

Surely the 442s are nothing more than a stop gap solution until more 377s arrive? They (442s) seem to have reliability problems, aren't compatible with the requirements of disabled passengers and they don't seem to be suited to at least some of the routes that Southern operate (as one example they failed to keep time when trialled on the London Bridge to Eastbourne service).

I like the units a lot, but I really can't see what future they have. They're trapped on the 3rd rail network which leaves them with either SWT, Southern or SE. SE have no use for them whatsoever (they seem to be the only franchise without any shortage of rolling stock) and, as much as I'd like to see them back with SWT on the Weymouth routes, I doubt that SWT would want to take the 442s back given that the 460/458 merger is going to allow the cascade of 450s to lenghten some long distance services and the 444s are bedded in on the others.

 

[thameslink2000]

The 442s seem suitable for the Brighton Express service (London Victoria, Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Brighton); but 377s appear to be on these journeys much of the time, mainly 377/3 in 9 car formation, surely the 3 cars are needed in the Metro area to bring trains up to 10 car.

IMO the 442s would be appropriate on SWT London Waterloo to Exeter, if the West of England line was 3rd rail electrified, but that is unlikely any electrification on that line will happen in the near future!

 

[Class377/5]

Sounds like a good plan, pity they can't speed it up by a couple of years. I disagree that the 377's will be first out of the Thameslink fleet, the 319's are late already and Southern will be getting the 377/6's, even if that's the current plan

Any idea what will happen with the Tonbridge/Reigate branches as they can't take 8 or 12 car units and the new Thameslink units won't be able to split like the current units? Tonbridge can go back to stand alone but Reigate really needs a twice hourly service to London to serve the office community around the station.

I was also rereading your comments on the stabling. Will Three Bridges be exclusively 12 car units (except major maintenance) as no 8-car services head that way and Hornsey focus on the 8-car units on GN/Bedford locals. IIRC you (or SWT) placed the Thameslink route intentions on the forums before which stated Redhill route (Horsham/Three bridges) and Brighton trains would all be 12 car. The 8-car routes would be Caterham/Tattenham and some SE destinations from Luton/WGC

Tonbridge and Reigate aren't moving to Thameslink services, they are staying as is now. The new Thameslink train won't be capabl of spilting outside a depot.

You just made me realise something. The deal with Southern meant the 377 had to be returned first. Was the loan agreement, but now the fact what is now Southern will be merging with Thameslink around the time of the loan deal ending means the 319 may end up being replaced first. After all only some numbers can be refurbished together so a slow trickle of units would make sense. But a lot of this depends on how quickly the north needs the 319's, if nothing new is ordered the first few 319's will go north without being refurished.

As for 8 car units, I don't think big numbers of the fleet if any of them will be using a Three Bridges. They already stable units at Caterham during the night and this could continue. The 8 car units be be able to be stable in a lot more places. Don't forget that Bedford currently stables 23x 377 and a fair few 319 units. This won't change with the new fleet. The problem is most of them arent able to take 12 fixed formation units well. For example, Carriage Sidings at Bedford cannot handle 12 cars and the new Jowett Sidings can only hold 5 but need to reverse twice to access them.

As for speeding the order up, well you have to remember that they need testing as well. The introduction of the new fleet isn't going to be as easy as the 350/3 or the 377/6's. They are going to need testing over all lines they are going to run on. This testing period is likely to last at least a year so you've got a fair bit of time with one of these units running around. 8 cars will also be tested but not to the same scale. Three Bridges depot should be finished in time for the first unit to arrive there in mid 2014. All the initial testing will be based from Three Bridges as well.

 

[HSTEd]

What does Thameslink mean for the Peterborough Carriage sidings? Are they long enough for the 12 carriage Thameslink trains to use them or will the stock have to be stabled somewhere else?

 

[JonathanH]

As explained upthread the Tonbridge / Reigate services lose their path to the Three Bridges service (presumably only because if the fixed formation being too long to go to the existing destinations).

Presumably Reigate to Tonbridge becomes a shuttle service using two 377 units. I don't think any planner takes that much attention of the office and college travellers to/from Reigate. The other thing that could happen is diversion of the Arun Valley services away from Redhill off-peak but that would leave southbound connections from Redhill a bit lacking.

 

[Class377/5]

As explained upthread the Tonbridge / Reigate services lose their path to the Three Bridges service (presumably only because if the fixed formation being too long to go to the existing destinations).

Presumably Reigate to Tonbridge becomes a shuttle service using two 377 units. I don't think any planner takes that much attention of the office and college travellers to/from Reigate. The other thing that could happen is diversion of the Arun Valley services away from Redhill off-peak but that would leave southbound connections from Redhill a bit lacking.

I thought there was already a Three Bridges - London service. Didn't realise there wasn't. A straight shuttle service sounds reasonable but you never know.

 

[ushawk]

Surely the 442s are nothing more than a stop gap solution until more 377s arrive? They (442s) seem to have reliability problems, aren't compatible with the requirements of disabled passengers and they don't seem to be suited to at least some of the routes that Southern operate (as one example they failed to keep time when trialled on the London Bridge to Eastbourne service).

I like the units a lot, but I really can't see what future they have. They're trapped on the 3rd rail network which leaves them with either SWT, Southern or SE. SE have no use for them whatsoever (they seem to be the only franchise without any shortage of rolling stock) and, as much as I'd like to see them back with SWT on the Weymouth routes, I doubt that SWT would want to take the 442s back given that the 460/458 merger is going to allow the cascade of 450s to lenghten some long distance services and the 444s are bedded in on the others.

Even the 442's each way to Eastbourne on weekdays are often always a few minutes late (ive only ever seen it on time twice). The reliability does need seeing to though as even today we are seeing 2 460s out, so when they all go to SWT there will be problems if the 442s arent sorted. I can see the 442s operating the GatEx until it eventually stops, then they will probably just be used on express services as these are what they are suited to. Cant see any other TOC using them after Southern.

 

[swt_passenger]

I was also rereading your comments on the stabling. Will Three Bridges be exclusively 12 car units (except major maintenance) as no 8-car services head that way and Hornsey focus on the 8-car units on GN/Bedford locals. IIRC you (or SWT) placed the Thameslink route intentions on the forums before which stated Redhill route (Horsham/Three bridges) and Brighton trains would all be 12 car. The 8-car routes would be Caterham/Tattenham and some SE destinations from Luton/WGC

The 16 stabling roads at Three Bridges are described in the planning docs as
6 x 12 car and 5 x 8 car on the up side, the down side is 5 x 12 car.

(There are also 5 x shed roads that will necessarily take 12 cars.)

The route/length details I posted a while back were:

Source is table 5.2 in the London and SE RUS,
each pairing is 2 tph; except for Brighton - Bedford which is 4tph:

18 tph through London Bridge

Brighton - Bedford 12-car (4 tph)
Three Bridges - Peterborough 12-car
Horsham - Cambridge 12-car
East Grinstead - Bedford 12-car Peak only
Caterham - St Albans 8-car
Tattenham Corner - Welwyn Garden City 8-car
Tunbridge Wells - Bedford 12-car Peak only
Ashford International -Luton 12-car Peak only

6tph via Elephant and Castle

Maidstone East via Catford - Welwyn Garden City 8-car
Sevenoaks via Catford - Luton 8-car
Bellingham via Catford - St Albans 8-car

I got the impression from all the planning guff that the 8 car stabling at Three Bridges was a late addition, and may have coincided with the Hornsey depot being reduced in size to pacify the local objections...


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What does Thameslink mean for the Peterborough Carriage sidings? Are they long enough for the 12 carriage Thameslink trains to use them or will the stock have to be stabled somewhere else?

Thameslink project is already down to provide 12 car stabling and platform extensions at Peterborough - I expect it will all be rolled up into the recently announced project to build additional platforms though.

 

[Class377/5]

SWT, the planning stuff, where did you read that please?

 

[swt_passenger]

Crawley Borough Council planning application site. You'll have to go via the main web page cos you have to click on an 'I understand' button.

The Reference number you need is CR/2011/0093/FUL, the info is in the design and access statement.

 

[Class377/5]

Crawley Borough Council planning application site. You'll have to go via the main web page cos you have to click on an 'I understand' button.

The Reference number you need is CR/2011/0093/FUL, the info is in the design and access statement.

Thanks very much. Hadn't seen that site before.

 

[swt_passenger]

I should have mentioned that file is 22 Mb, so it may take a while depending on where you are connecting from...

 

[Chz]

23 8-car 455's and 24 456's - a match made in heaven

Perhaps this order will mean some 4-car 377's heading back to the coast and the 313's being made available for somewhere else? You need 3-car 377's to make up 12 coach trains

Would they re-form them for 10 car trains, or would they run 455-456-455? The latter seems like a bit of a pain to manage for forming up trains, but you can't have a 456 hanging off the end when there are still going to be platforms that only hold 8 cars!

 

[ert47]

Would they re-form them for 10 car trains, or would they run 455-456-455? The latter seems like a bit of a pain to manage for forming up trains, but you can't have a 456 hanging off the end when there are still going to be platforms that only hold 8 cars!

Does the 455/456 even have SDO?

 

[BestWestern]

Surely the 442s are nothing more than a stop gap solution until more 377s arrive? They (442s) seem to have reliability problems, aren't compatible with the requirements of disabled passengers and they don't seem to be suited to at least some of the routes that Southern operate (as one example they failed to keep time when trialled on the London Bridge to Eastbourne service).

I like the units a lot, but I really can't see what future they have. They're trapped on the 3rd rail network which leaves them with either SWT, Southern or SE. SE have no use for them whatsoever (they seem to be the only franchise without any shortage of rolling stock) and, as much as I'd like to see them back with SWT on the Weymouth routes, I doubt that SWT would want to take the 442s back given that the 460/458 merger is going to allow the cascade of 450s to lenghten some long distance services and the 444s are bedded in on the others.

I think you're probably right about SWT having no requirement for them, although it would be nice to see them perhaps displace the unsuitable 450's on the long Portsmouth - Basingstoke - Waterloo runs, which would of course free up additional 450's for suburban use. It would be a travesty if they were scrapped, but I would think it more likely they'd just end up sat back in Eastleigh works for years doing nothing.

The most viable alternative for them really might be as loco hauled stock, obviously with modification/conversion of certain vehicles. The traction equipment is now very old indeed, but there is surely much life left in the coaches themselves. The 24 five car sets would allow for a decent few rakes to be formed up, even just using the two intermediate trailers from every set gives 48 coaches. The best option though would be to use the driving cars as well, creating power door fitted passenger stock with 'push-pull' capability. Surely worth doing!?

 

[Minstral25]

Would they re-form them for 10 car trains, or would they run 455-456-455? The latter seems like a bit of a pain to manage for forming up trains, but you can't have a 456 hanging off the end when there are still going to be platforms that only hold 8 cars!

Assuming that SWT takes the 456's, Southern will have 26 377/6's and 28 377/3's that can be made to 10 car units. That is 13 10 car sets made up of 377/6's and 14 made up of 2x 377/3 plus a 377/4, total 27 units. Assume 1 for maintenance spare that's 26 sets per day.

How much of the London Metro service can be run with 26 sets per day? What trains will remain only 8 cars?

Could the 455's released by the 377/6's take over the Wimbledon Loop to Blackfriars only and thus release 319's to improve services on the rest of the Thameslink network?

 

[Class377/5]

Assuming that SWT takes the 456's, Southern will have 26 377/6's and 28 377/3's that can be made to 10 car units. That is 13 10 car sets made up of 377/6's and 14 made up of 2x 377/3 plus a 377/4, total 27 units. Assume 1 for maintenance spare that's 26 sets per day.

How much of the London Metro service can be run with 26 sets per day? What trains will remain only 8 cars?

Could the 455's released by the 377/6's take over the Wimbledon Loop to Blackfriars only and thus release 319's to improve services on the rest of the Thameslink network?

Doubtful the 455 would run on the loop. The 455 couldnt transfer to Southern until the merger in 2015 when the new fleet is being introduced (they'd need a depot to be maintaned in, so unless Southern and FCC did a deal it's not possible to use the units). The new Thameslink fleet is having units for the Wimbledon in the order so they're no point in replacing units in 2015 then replacing them again in 2016 as all the extra driver training makes it not worth the effort.

However the new Thameslink bidder have have other ideas and propose something. After all the DfT may allow loop services to terminate at Blackfriars ahead of the 2018 timetable change to allow early release of the 319's to get refurbishment than is currently planned (currently first units are planned for 2016 release). So nothing is set in stone at this point.

 

[swt_passenger]

Doubtful the 455 would run on the loop. The 455 couldnt transfer to Southern until the merger in 2015 when the new fleet is being introduced (they'd need a depot to be maintaned in, so unless Southern and FCC did a deal it's not possible to use the units).

But I think Minstral25 was referring to SN's existing 455 fleet here, so there's no transfer involved at all?

 

[Class377/5]

But I think Minstral25 was referring to SN's existing 455 fleet here, so there's no transfer involved at all?

Well seeing as the loop services are part of the Thameslink franchise you'd need a transfer of something between Thameslink and Southern. I was talking about the current 455's as well.

Think you misunderstand as the cant just take over the loop with 455's until after 2015, at which point the new fleet for the loop will be coming into service.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well seeing as the loop services are part of the Thameslink franchise you'd need a transfer of something between Thameslink and Southern. I was talking about the current 455's as well.

Think you misunderstand as the cant just take over the loop with 455's until after 2015, at which point the new fleet for the loop will be coming into service.

His suggestion was that 455s take over the loop as far as Blackfriars only to release 319s. Seemed a perfectly reasonable idea to me. It is widely believed that the loop will be split from the core Thameslink services by 2018 anyway, so there's no particular reason why it can't happen earlier, especially as we now know the franchisexs will be combined long before 2018 anyway.

You surprise me in saying that there will be Desiro City trains ordered for the loop - because according to most RUS stuff they won't be needed.

 

[ushawk]

Never thought of them being used on the loop, does make sense - especially with SN and FCC being combined - although the 455's can only have a short-term use on the loop as they will be pretty old.

 

[Class377/5]

His suggestion was that 455s take over the loop as far as Blackfriars only to release 319s. Seemed a perfectly reasonable idea to me. It is widely believed that the loop will be split from the core Thameslink services by 2018 anyway, so there's no particular reason why it can't happen earlier, especially as we now know the franchisexs will be combined long before 2018 anyway.

You surprise me in saying that there will be Desiro City trains ordered for the loop - because according to most RUS stuff they won't be needed.

The Desiro will be used on all current FCC services plus all the future additional units. They are needed due to the fact you can only run 8 cars around the loop and the units will provide additional space. When did a RUS ever say that the loop doesn't need additional capacity?

It doesn't matter where the 455 run to. As I said before its Doubtful for the following reasons

* Southern drivers don't know Loughborough Junction and points north
* FCC has no depot south of the Thames to look after the 455's
* FCC drivers don't sign the 455's
* Southern drivers don't sign the 319's any more

Any and all of these can be overcome but why mess around with the franchises now when in a few years your going to merge them. Its not a simple as moving the stock over, it's a massive driver issue as well with only FCC driver able to sign the whole route. There's no point in sorting this out in the current franchise for Thameslink as it ends next year. So you'd have to change the Southern franchise to do this or do a joint service. Joint service would require you to train up drivers from both TOC's, more expense.

Bottom line is operationally is a bad idea. In theory it's a good suggestion until you look at the practical side if things.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Desiro will be used on all current FCC services plus all the future additional units. They are needed due to the fact you can only run 8 cars around the loop and the units will provide additional space. When did a RUS ever say that the loop doesn't need additional capacity?

The RUSs say that the loop will always be limited to 8 car trains, and that it will be disconnected from the core. Those points on their own strongly suggest that Desiro Citys won't be needed on the loop.

However now that I realise it is you who is responsible for rolling stock policy in the entire combined SN/FCC area I'll shut up.

 

[Class377/5]

The RUSs say that the loop will always be limited to 8 car trains, and that it will be disconnected from the core. Those points on their own strongly suggest that Desiro Citys won't be needed on the loop.

However now that I realise it is you who is responsible for rolling stock policy in the entire combined SN/FCC area I'll shut up.

I'm not responsible but do know about what's happening.

Just can't say yet

 

[HSTEd]

What non Desiro City rolling stock will Southern/Thameslink be left with after the thameslink programme is complete?

The stock used on the Cambridge flyer would appear to be the only stuff from FCC... so what will Southern have left?

Surely a lot more than just the Cl319s will be freed?

 

[ushawk]

Southern will have the same stock as they have now (456s are unknown at the moment) as well as the new 377/6s

 

[pendolino]

Does the 455/456 even have SDO?

Yes, it works like this: you make a PA announcement asking passengers to alight from the front 7 coaches only and hope they select a door that's actually on the platform.

So in other words, no.

 

[swt_passenger]

What non Desiro City rolling stock will Southern/Thameslink be left with after the thameslink programme is complete?

The stock used on the Cambridge flyer would appear to be the only stuff from FCC... so what will Southern have left?

Surely a lot more than just the Cl319s will be freed?

Southern will still need all the stock used on their current routes, less that which is replaced by Desiros on those routes that will be extended through the core.

So you've still got all the Metro services, all the London Bridge terminators, all the Victoria terminators, all the Coastway stock, Gatwick Express, Marshlink and Uckfield DMUs, then there's the WLL to Milton Keynes; etc, etc. It's a far more complex situation than north of the river with just the GN and Moorgate.

A probable majority of the ex SN services will still not be running through the core, so you can't really describe it as a Thameslink takeover of Southern, it's more like a Southern merger with Thameslink, on a size for size basis, no matter how the DfT described it recently.