Future of the Class 89

[Whistler40145]

I'm puzzled why LSL will be using 89001 when they've already got 86101, 87002, 90001 & 90002

 

[jfollows]

The 89 will be returning to the mainline with Locomotive Services Ltd at Crewe. Statement from their Facebook page

Thank you for posting this, very helpful.
I'll probably book myself on a Wilmslow-London trip in June with them. I don't really mind which locomotive I get, it's more a social day out with friends from Stoke. I went behind 89001 on the 15:40 King's Cross-Bradford back a few years ago ...... but it'll be nice to see it running again in due course.

 

[fgwrich]

I'm puzzled why LSL will be using 89001 when they've already got 86101, 87002, 90001 & 90002

I agree. It just seems rather odd to have forked out a considerable amount on overhauls and repaints for the 86, 87 & 2 90s, only to almost sideline them. Has 87002 actually worked a train for LSL yet?

Then again, ETL have had a strange few years with the sale of the 86 & 87.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Wow… I love it when a speculative post turns out to be accurate!

Not entirely accurate, it won’t be cleared for 125mph. I’ll be surprised if it ever runs faster than the 100mph that it’s Co-Co wheel arrangement was limited to during all its previous forays on the network.

 

[jfollows]

Not entirely accurate, it won’t be cleared for 125mph. I’ll be surprised if it ever runs faster than the 100mph that it’s Co-Co wheel arrangement was limited to during all its previous forays on the network.

1Z87 on 26/1/22, which won't be hauled by 89001 I know, is timed at 110mph (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U91425/2022-01-26/detailed) so perhaps this'll be the final speed it's also cleared for?

 

[CW2]

Not entirely accurate, it won’t be cleared for 125mph. I’ll be surprised if it ever runs faster than the 100mph that it’s Co-Co wheel arrangement was limited to during all its previous forays on the network.

Are you sure of that, because the 89 was for some time used turn and turn about on Kings Cross - Leeds / Bradford services, deputising for class 91s? I believe at that time it was passed for 125 mph running.

 

[43 302]

Are you sure of that, because the 89 was for some time used turn and turn about on Kings Cross - Leeds / Bradford services, deputising for class 91s? I believe at that time it was passed for 125 mph running.

I'm certain it did. After all wasn't 125mph running the advantage of using Avocet instead of a Class 90?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Are you sure of that, because the 89 was for some time used turn and turn about on Kings Cross - Leeds / Bradford services, deputising for class 91s? I believe at that time it was passed for 125 mph running.

My understanding was that selected Kings Cross-Leeds diagrams were timed for 100mph to accommodate the 89 or 90s as appropriate, but maybe I’ve misremembered something?

 

[hexagon789]

My understanding was that selected Kings Cross-Leeds diagrams were timed for 100mph to accommodate the 89 or 90s as appropriate, but maybe I’ve misremembered something?

110mph to accommodate the 90s before the schedules were all tightened up, but the 89 was passed for 125mph.

 

[LOL The Irony]

This is some nice news to see. Hopefully a fruitful partnership with ACG and LSL.

 

[DanNCL]

The 89 was previously authorised to do 125 mph but could only achieve this on the ECML. If authorised to do 125 mph again it would still only be able to do so on the ECML, as 125 mph running on the WCML requires tilt and 125 mph running on the GWML requires ATP. The only stock the 89 would be able to run at 125 mph with is Mark 4s, which LSL don’t have, so the with both that and the limited route options for 125 mph running it’s likely been deemed not worthwhile getting the 89 certified for 125 mph again.

 

[43 302]

The 89 was previously authorised to do 125 mph but could only achieve this on the ECML. If authorised to do 125 mph again it would still only be able to do so on the ECML, as 125 mph running on the WCML requires tilt and 125 mph running on the GWML requires ATP. The only stock the 89 would be able to run at 125 mph with is Mark 4s, which LSL don’t have, so the with both that and the limited route options for 125 mph running it’s likely been deemed not worthwhile getting the 89 certified for 125 mph again.

Technically not all rolling stock authorised to run at 125 on the GWML is ATP fitted, but good point nonetheless.

 

[hexagon789]

The 89 was previously authorised to do 125 mph but could only achieve this on the ECML. If authorised to do 125 mph again it would still only be able to do so on the ECML, as 125 mph running on the WCML requires tilt and 125 mph running on the GWML requires ATP. The only stock the 89 would be able to run at 125 mph with is Mark 4s, which LSL don’t have, so the with both that and the limited route options for 125 mph running it’s likely been deemed not worthwhile getting the 89 certified for 125 mph again.

If they had a rake of Mk3s maintained to 125 along with a DVT maintained to 125 and the entire set was equipped with through brake control of the DW9/E70 flavour then that would also allow 125mph. Mk4s would of course be much, much simpler!

 

[43 302]

If they had a rake of Mk3s maintained to 125 along with a DVT maintained to 125 and the entire set was equipped with through brake control of the DW9/E70 flavour then that would also allow 125mph. Mk4s would of course be much, much simpler!

But only on the southern half of the ECML!

 

[hexagon789]

But only on the southern half of the ECML!

Given the paperwork has to be run again anyway, wouldn't the ACG want to be able to use the loco over any electrified mainline and any portion of it?

 

[43 302]

Given the paperwork has to be run again anyway, wouldn't the ACG want to be able to use the loco over any electrified mainline and any portion of it?

I was referring to 125mph running. Although it'd need Mk4s too.

 

[hexagon789]

I was referring to 125mph running. Although it'd need Mk4s too.

Sorry, I took the 'southern half of the ECML' to imply use on only KGX-York.

 

[43 302]

Sorry, I took the 'southern half of the ECML' to imply use on only KGX-York.

That and Carlisle to Willesden someone mentioned as the only cleared routes.

 

[hexagon789]

That and Carlisle to Willesden someone mentioned as the only cleared routes.

Oh, that's surprisingly limited. I would've thought the ability to branch out to even 100mph operations on the GWML, Northern ECML and maybe even the GEML might have been taken.

 

[43 302]

Oh, that's surprisingly limited. I would've thought the ability to branch out to even 100mph operations on the GWML, Northern ECML and maybe even the GEML might have been taken.

Bearing in mind this was back in the 90s when half of those weren't electrified. I'm sure they could run it on more routes, probably not at 125 though!

 

[hexagon789]

Bearing in mind this was back in the 90s when half of those weren't electrified. I'm sure they could run it on more routes, probably not at 125 though!

Well that's what I meant - when it is re-certified the routes that they will seek to have it passed to operate on.

 

[Roast Veg]

If it eventually gets ECTS fitted (which it may need for the ECML down the line) then that would subvert the need for ATP.

 

[DanNCL]

But only on the southern half of the ECML!

Sorry, I took the 'southern half of the ECML' to imply use on only KGX-York.

That and Carlisle to Willesden someone mentioned as the only cleared routes.

Oh, that's surprisingly limited. I would've thought the ability to branch out to even 100mph operations on the GWML, Northern ECML and maybe even the GEML might have been taken.

89001 was cleared for the full length of the ECML. It’s restriction in service to south of York was for two reasons, limited crew knowledge which would have restricted services to Newcastle that could be worked (and completely ruled out Edinburgh workings), and to keep it close to its home base of Bounds Green.

You may be confusing 89001’s route restrictions with those of the 373/3s, which were prohibited from running North of York on the ECML because of clearance issues on the bridges over the Tyne. Ironically though, it’s a 373 that made it to Newcastle once (albeit hauled by a 37 and not in service), rather than 89001!

I don’t know about the GEML, but as for GWML operation the reason 89001 isn’t cleared there is simply as nobody considered it worthwhile to do it, with the GWML not being electrified at the time.

 

[D365]

I'm puzzled why LSL will be using 89001 when they've already got 86101, 87002, 90001 & 90002

Which is exactly my quandary also. Aside from that it was built for 125mph capability, the only ”unique” quality is that it will be LSL’s sole Brush electric - unless they get their hands on some 92s.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The 89 was previously authorised to do 125 mph but could only achieve this on the ECML. If authorised to do 125 mph again it would still only be able to do so on the ECML, as 125 mph running on the WCML requires tilt and 125 mph running on the GWML requires ATP. The only stock the 89 would be able to run at 125 mph with is Mark 4s, which LSL don’t have, so the with both that and the limited route options for 125 mph running it’s likely been deemed not worthwhile getting the 89 certified for 125 mph again.

Are the LSL mark 3s limited to 110mph then? I've certainly seen some mark 3s with 125mph on their data panels, including DVTs (as seen here).

 

[43 302]

Are the LSL mark 3s limited to 110mph then? I've certainly seen some mark 3s with 125mph on their data panels, including DVTs (as seen here).

Only HST Mk3s are 125mph. LHCS 110mph.

 

[Whistler40145]

Only HST Mk3s are 125mph. LHCS 110mph.

Mk 3s have always been 110mph max speed

 

[Rhydgaled]

Only HST Mk3s are 125mph. LHCS 110mph.

Mk 3s have always been 110mph max speed

The DVTs are LHCS mark 3s and I linked you to a photo which shows a DVT with 125mph on the data panel. Also, I have seen other mark 3 LHCS with 125mph on the data panel (although some are 110mph as you say). For example, Arriva Trains Wales mark 3 buffet 10249 is/was marked as 125mph, were this and other 125mph mark 3s converted from IC125 vehicles?

 

[ABB125]

Only HST Mk3s are 125mph. LHCS 110mph.

Mk 3s have always been 110mph max speed

What's so special about the HST Mk3s, which allows them to run at 125mph?

And, as a result, what modifications were made to Mk3s which were rebuilt for HST use by the likes of XC?

 

[pdeaves]

What's so special about the HST Mk3s, which allows them to run at 125mph?

And, as a result, what modifications were made to Mk3s which were rebuilt for HST use by the likes of XC?

I would suggest that LHCS Mk3s were only limited to 110mph because that's all the locos could do (at the time); just the same as there's no sense clearing the 89 for western region use when there was no OLE for it to use. Presumably, there's a little more onerous maintenance requirement for the higher speed which the LHCS didn't get.