The extended platforms at Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Airport would be able to take eight cars at least yes. You'd still have to make a business case work to order more intermediate coaches, and I doubt that has anything to do with the S&C.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines
- Thread starter InkyScrolls
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
No, nothing at all. A conversational rabbit hole to back out of before it's too late.
Iskra
Established Member
You’re probably right, but stranger things have happened on the railway, so you never know!
I agree an enhanced XC service would be the preferred starting point, but there seems to be as much chance of express workings over the S&C as XC being fixed!
This suggests that those services should be lengthened.
In truth, the growth of these routes over the past few decades has been impressive. I wonder whether running through to Glasgow would increase patronage in a similar fashion.
Would the people prefer a cheap fare and seat to a marginally quicker cross country service.
Last edited:
Currently neither are an option by rail... The CrossCountry service is still current in terms of rights and crew knowledge. The S&C has neither available.
A cheap seat is an option by bus though.
It's certainly not looking good, but the new timetable has two services from Glasgow to Leeds rather than one (0648, 0748) and two from Leeds back to Glasgow (1708, 1808).
The possibility of improved connections at Carlisle or an extension of an existing service, from Leeds to Glasgow in the morning and back in the evening has been discussed at some length in the past. It's not easy.
I'm seeing a 74 quid walk on return for Leeds - Glasgow via Appleby. Compared to the rail alternatives,that's pretty cheap.
It wouldn't be that price if you had to build new 110mph capable trains to run it with though.
InkyScrolls
On Moderation
Carlisle is almost ideal for connections - if the S&C timetable were to be recast with that in mind, as well as taking into account paths south of Skipton, that would be highly beneficial for long distance travellers and far cheaper than raising the linespeed or running through services.
Do the Liverpools to Scotland run with capacity? If they do, combine a Liverpool-Glasgow and Manchester-Glasgow at Preston as it used to be. This will allow 5-car trains to continue using Manchester Airport station, still allow seats for joining passengers and free up a path on the WCML north of Preston every two hours. The freed up path could be used for a Leeds-Glasgow via Carlisle through service.
Carlisle might be a hub, but it is well known that passengers prefer through trains, especially elderly, disabled and those with pushchairs and/or heavy luggage. Not easy travelling northbound where the connection means crossing over the footbridge.
Booking a ticket From West Yorkshire to Glasgow, you are automatically routed via Newcastle and Edinburgh with a change at Edinburgh. Passengers would gravitate towards a through Leeds-Glasgow train via Carlisle if there was one.
If they are able to, many Harrogate residents prefer to drive to Skipton and use that route even having to change at Carlisle instead of via Edinburgh necessitating a change twice at York and Edinburgh.
To much over specifying
Keep the change at carlisle
Put some 70mph sections in where its easy. Especially on downhill bits. Garsdale -Kirkby Stephen would be a useful 70mph section.
You dont need any signalling changes. The signalling hasnt changed much since WCML expresses were diverted that way.
Settle Jct surely could cope with 70mph? Its a modern ladder. And is Bell Busk that curvey it needs a 60 restriction?
Is walking such a thing north of Ribblehead? Maybe some Leeds-Ribblehead shorts would help. You can start the 3 peaks at Ribblehead or Horton.
And if you wasnt walkers you need a sunday train from Leeds to Ribblehead arriving before 09:00. Could be summer dated. Or a leeds - Skipton electric and a 158 from there, as i think the S&C trains and drivers are Skipton based.
Keep the change at carlisle
Put some 70mph sections in where its easy. Especially on downhill bits. Garsdale -Kirkby Stephen would be a useful 70mph section.
You dont need any signalling changes. The signalling hasnt changed much since WCML expresses were diverted that way.
Settle Jct surely could cope with 70mph? Its a modern ladder. And is Bell Busk that curvey it needs a 60 restriction?
Is walking such a thing north of Ribblehead? Maybe some Leeds-Ribblehead shorts would help. You can start the 3 peaks at Ribblehead or Horton.
And if you wasnt walkers you need a sunday train from Leeds to Ribblehead arriving before 09:00. Could be summer dated. Or a leeds - Skipton electric and a 158 from there, as i think the S&C trains and drivers are Skipton based.
Might be suitable for some cascaded stock though.
More use for all those spare voyagers?
Maybe 222's - given its Midland territory.
daodao
Established Member
A possible Mon-Sat timetable for a direct fast service between Leeds and Glasgow could be:
There would be additional calls at Shipley, Keighley & Motherwell (plus Wakefield Westgate if extending to/from Sheffield); a Sunday service of 2 trains per day could also be provided.
The times are merely indicative, based on current gaps in the existing public passenger timetable. It has been assumed that trains capable of 110 mph would be used, although obviously not at this speed on the S&C line itself. Bi-mode trains would be advantageous to make use of electrification from Hemsworth/Leeds to Skipton and Carlisle to Glasgow.
| Sheffield Midland | 0750 | ||
| Leeds City | 0850 | 1250 | 1750 |
| Skipton | 0930 | 1330 | 1830 |
| Carlisle Citadel | 1115 | 1515 | 2015 |
| Glasgow Central | 1235 | 1635 | 2135 |
| Glasgow Central | 0825 | 1320 | 1755 |
| Carlisle Citadel | 0945 | 1440 | 1915 |
| Skipton | 1130 | 1630 | 2100 |
| Leeds City | 1210 | 1710 | 2140 |
| Sheffield Midland | 2245 | ||
The times are merely indicative, based on current gaps in the existing public passenger timetable. It has been assumed that trains capable of 110 mph would be used, although obviously not at this speed on the S&C line itself. Bi-mode trains would be advantageous to make use of electrification from Hemsworth/Leeds to Skipton and Carlisle to Glasgow.
Last edited:
InkyScrolls
On Moderation
Bell Busk, and Gargrave, are likely too sharp for more than 60 mph. You get lots of walkers at Dent and Garsdale as well. S&C crews are based at Skipton, Carlisle or Leeds.
As an alternative thought, in this era of generally being strapped for cash, what is the minimum useful service which the lines which are the subject of this thread could manage with?
Last edited:
Iskra
Established Member
Out of interest how many tickets to Scottish destinations do you see?
The minimum useful service is probably the current one, which is also the best service the line has ever had!
Given that the gaps between trains are already around 2 - 2+ hours, the current service probably is about the minimum.
You don't want to end up with a service like the Whitby line.
The 21:30 from Lancaster you might be able to get away with losing, but that gets staff and stock to depot so you need to run it anyway.
InkyScrolls
On Moderation
I'm no longer a conductor so I can't give a recent figure, but in the past I used to see a surprising amount of people travelling to or from Ayr! I've often wondered if a direct Carlisle - Ayr train would be worth running, but that's probably beyond the scope of this thread.
In theory I think Bentham could lose a midday train each way - but the savings would be minimal.
(I would rather see the departures from Lancaster run an hour later to avoid the 3-hour afternoon gap, but that impacts the Carlisle service immediately so requires some more complex tweaking.)
(I would rather see the departures from Lancaster run an hour later to avoid the 3-hour afternoon gap, but that impacts the Carlisle service immediately so requires some more complex tweaking.)
PyrahnaRanger
Member
They may show sold out, and there's a sea of red when you get on, but not a huge amount of passengers turn up to sit under those red dotsIf the trains are sold out, then we should be looking to add more.
Is the WCML North full? Doesn't seem it with a quick glance at what is going through Lockerbie currently. 9 trains in both directions between 1400 and 1459 on a two track railway, plus 2 Q paths being wasted
70014IronDuke
Established Member
- Joined
- 13 Jun 2015
- Messages
- 3,887
An interesting schedule, but not stopping at either Settle or Appleby? Hmmm. Settle is by far the most important traffic generator on the S&C, although I accept that the majority of journeys are towards Skipton, Leeds, Bradford etc. I suppose your 17.50 ex Leeds might get too many commuters wanting to use seats for the short hop to Settle though.
Yes. You have cleverly exploited some of the available free paths between Leeds and Skipton. I don't know about north of Carlisle.
From a quick look at national rail, the journey suggestions at present are between 4h and 4h30 for Leeds to Queen Street, and 15-20 longer for Central, so that schedule does knock at least 15-30 minutes off the journey. Is that enough to be worth it?
Let's rent some 180s and try it out - can also prove that it's not just freight that breaks down on Beattock.
The 1808 direct is 4h 05m so that's the time to beat.
The schedule above is 3h45, so 20min is a decent improvement on a 245min schedule - but given that neither are frequent and the times are long either way and the difference isn't huge, it would depend on when you're traveling more than speed.
quantinghome
Established Member
- Joined
- 1 Jun 2013
- Messages
- 2,408
Thanks for putting this together. I would also put an earlier service in - say leaving Leeds at 0650, arriving Glasgow at 1035. That would allow business travellers to be there for almost the full working day without either leaving ridiculously early or having to stay in a hotel.
That would catch up the 0641 Bradford Forster Square > Lancaster (as at May 2025). That is itself is followed by a class 6 freight from Hellifield to Ribblehead. It may be possible to get out of Leeds at about 0620ish and into Shipley ahead of the early LNER from Bradford departing. But I've only looked at Leeds to Ribblehead and that's exactly the problem with this, we've already lost half an hour. At least you have half a chance of getting into a platform at Leeds for a departure around 0620, good luck to @daodao to find one for any of their empty stocks or departures with passengers...
11 and 12 are split and rarely are both halves occupied at the same time.
Halish Railway
Established Member
I may have mentioned this before but I think the most sensible way that you may get additional Leeds to Carlisle services in is my building some kind of connection from the Bentham line to the WCML to go north using bi-mode trains, most likely by reversing At Carnforth and using the chord that’s been suggested that would allow trains to call at Carnforth on their way between Windermere and Manchester.
This would probably provide a journey time quicker than the current route but would open up new journey opportunities to Oxenholme and Penrith. Of course the main issue with this is that Settle Jn to Carnforth is a single block section which really reduces flexibility in train planning.
This would probably provide a journey time quicker than the current route but would open up new journey opportunities to Oxenholme and Penrith. Of course the main issue with this is that Settle Jn to Carnforth is a single block section which really reduces flexibility in train planning.
anothertyke
Member
That would be great for getting from Leeds to Windermere as well which at the moment requires either dodgy connections at Preston and Oxenholme or bus from Carnforth.
But I can't visualise where this chord line would go at Carnforth. Or do you mean using the existing line and reversing in the goods loops?
I'm guessing it would go from the north of the station back to the WCML, so trains from Lancaster could call on their way north, and trains from Leeds could reverse and head north.
Though if we're speculating about running a fast(ish) Leeds - Glasgow service, what would the time penalty of going via Lancaster be?